Dissing DWare

[goshan]

Remember, 1987 was a strike season. Teams played only 15 games that year -- some of them with replacement players. It would be better to look at 1986, a full 16-game season.

In 1986, offenses averaged 516.8 attempts and 42.8 times sacked. In 2007, it was 532.7 and 34.4. That's about one more pass attempt per game, but more than half a sack less per game. The rate of sacks went from once every 12.07 pass attempts to once every 15.49 attempts -- a drop of 22 percent in frequency.

The biggest reason for this is the change in passing games that occurred in the late 1980s -- teams went from throwing longer passes, on average, to throwing shorter, quicker passes, on average. (The West Coast offense is an example of this, but all offenses use more shorter, quicker passes now.) Completion rates are up, but yards per catch are down. With quarterbacks getting rid of the ball more quickly, pass rushers don't have as much time to get to the quarterback.

Now these are some good arguments. Good points.

 

[superpunk]

Sacks given up per team

1986: 42.8
2006: 36.4

1985: 46.6
2005: 36.9

1984: 46.9
2004: 37.4

In every one of these years teams passed MORE in the 2000 era than they did in 1984-1987. From 1984 to 1987, the amount of pass attempts per team ranged from 481-516. From 2004 to 2007, the pass attempts ranged from about 510-532.

So, even though players were getting AS MUCH or MORE opportunities to sack QBs from 2004-2007, their sack totals per team were DOWN by 5 or more for every 20 year increment. Which again, supports my theory and opinion.

 

[superpunk]

Remember, 1987 was a strike season. Teams played only 15 games that year -- some of them with replacement players. It would be better to look at 1986, a full 16-game season.

In 1986, offenses averaged 516.8 attempts and 42.8 times sacked. In 2007, it was 532.7 and 34.4. That's about one more pass attempt per game, but more than half a sack less per game. The rate of sacks went from once every 12.07 pass attempts to once every 15.49 attempts -- a drop of 22 percent in frequency.

The biggest reason for this is the change in passing games that occurred in the late 1980s -- teams went from throwing longer passes, on average, to throwing shorter, quicker passes, on average. (The West Coast offense is an example of this, but all offenses use more shorter, quicker passes now.) Completion rates are up, but yards per catch are down. With quarterbacks getting rid of the ball more quickly, pass rushers don't have as much time to get to the quarterback.

I did forget about 1987, thanks.

But the argument is the same. West coast passing elements and offensive rule favorings, it is in general more difficult to generate sacks today than it was 20 years ago.

Some people are too dense to take the evidence for what it is. The late 80s produced a big change in the way offense's were run, making it far more difficult to put up big sack numbers. Which is exactly what I said on the previous two pages.

Teams are using more west coast principles and quick hitting routes, and because of the focus on illegal contact and defnsive holding players are able to get open alot quicker and easier, making it easier to complete passes and giving defenders less time to sack the QB.

 

[quaigs]

He doesn't knock the QB down repeatedly during the game or get consistent pressure that forces the offense to change its practices.

Really?

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

No additional info on Haley's Jock-Strap?

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Let's see, if you go 60 minutes, you don't pressure the QB once, but get a sack in each game, that makes you great? I don't think so.

Pressure pressure pressure. Something that Haley did almost everytime he rushed the QB, the QB was on the run. Some games Ware brings that consistant pressure, but this year, he's done it maybe once.

I will say this though. I don't know if back in the day they had schems to take away dominant pass rushers, IE, chipping etc... Maybe Adam can dig up something, and Ware gets chipped a lot.

So I would like to know what those others had on the opposite side of them, if they had scrubs, then I will back down from Ware because Ware has absolutely no help opposite him.

In the past, Adam and I have sparred over the use of hyperbole on this board.

But I'm honestly starting to believe some of you really believe statements such as this.

 

[theogt]

Wow. This thread = fail.

 

[Mansta54]

LT was not the god some now make him out to be. Things get exagerated over time. Not saying Demarcus is as good- but LT was NOT that much better.

Dware is getting at least one sack a game and other pressures as well as Tackles and other stats. If he keeps up the present pace he has a real good shot at DPOY. What more can we really expect?

Oh, YES he was!!!!!!!

 

[goshan]

Really?

Do you have these for this year?

 

[quaigs]

Do you have these for this year?

No but I've been trying. It's near impossible to find a site that keeps track of QB hurries and hits.

 

[superpunk]

Wow. This thread = fail.

YOUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AdamJT13]

Ah OK.... so you only compared one year to try and project a statistical distribution for the whole 80s, half of which were played before 1987... Don't even talk about 88-93, where teams were still run-oriented.

Sack percentages by season
1980 - 7.0
1981 - 6.7
1982 - 7.8
1983 - 8.0
1984 - 8.4
1985 - 8.3
1986 - 7.6
1987 - 7.6
1988 - 6.8
1989 - 7.2
1990 - 7.3
1991 - 6.6
1992 - 7.8
1993 - 6.8
1994 - 5.9
1995 - 6.1
1996 - 6.5
1997 - 7.4
1998 - 7.2
1999 - 6.9
2000 - 7.0
2001 - 6.9
2002 - 6.4
2003 - 6.2
2004 - 6.8
2005 - 6.7
2006 - 6.6
2007 - 6.1
2008 - 6.4


There has been a clear decline in sack percentages since the 1980s. From 1982-1987, the LOWEST percentage was 7.6 percent, which hasn't been matched even one time since 1992. The percentage has been in the 6s every season since it was 7.0 in 2000.

 

[Vintage]

Wow. This thread = fail.

 

[zrinkill]

Situational stats did not get recorded till 1991

That was at the end of LT's career and the middle of Haley's.

Here is where I look at the situational stats.

http://www.nfl.com/players/charleshaley/situationalstats?id=HAL084750&season=1992


Ware has had 38.5 sacks in his 4 year career

1st Quarter - 13.5
2nd Quarter - 8.5
3rd Quarter - 8
4th Quarter - 8.5

 

[zrinkill]

No additional info on Haley's Jock-Strap?

Ask Rack

 

[theogt]

Situational stats did not get recorded till 1991

That was at the end of LT's career and the middle of Haley's.

Here is where I look at the situational stats.

http://www.nfl.com/players/charleshaley/situationalstats?id=HAL084750&season=1992


Ware has had 38.5 sacks in his 4 year career

1st Quarter - 13.5
2nd Quarter - 8.5
3rd Quarter - 8
4th Quarter - 8.5

This thread is the sports forum equivalent of the Dow Jones Industrial Average.

 

[zrinkill]

This thread is the sports forum equivalent of the Dow Jones Industrial Average.

When people start putting conditions on when and how a sack is "really" effecting the game.

This is what happens.

You show a guy has alot of sacks .... they question when the sack was gotten.

You show that ..... they question how many hurries he got.

You show that ...... they start questioning the level of offensive lines he was facing.

it goes on and on.

 

[khiladi]

Sacks given up per team

1986: 42.8
2006: 36.4

1985: 46.6
2005: 36.9

1984: 46.9
2004: 37.4

In every one of these years teams passed MORE in the 2000 era than they did in 1984-1987. From 1984 to 1987, the amount of pass attempts per team ranged from 481-516. From 2004 to 2007, the pass attempts ranged from about 510-532.

So, even though players were getting AS MUCH or MORE opportunities to sack QBs from 2004-2007, their sack totals per team were DOWN by 5 or more for every 20 year increment. Which again, supports my theory and opinion.

You win this round....

 

[Clove]

I rewatched the game Ware exclusively.

I didn't take notes but I'll tell you what I saw.

1. 5 times, Ware did nothing, basically got owned.
2. Ware got some for of pressure 5 times, even when double teamed.
3. Ware was doubled 4 or 5 times, that's it.

Here's the biggest one.

1. The QB threw the ball in 2 secs or less most of the time.
We have a coverage problem.

 

[Rack]

Are you talking to me Adam? Because I didn't say that. I said he got to the QB more often than Ware does.


The Homerism here continues to amaze me:
1. About half the people in Zone Game Day Chat have been saying that although Ware is great, he doesn't seem to be getting to the QB as much this year. Some say that a lot of his sacks have come late in games where the game was probably decided.
2. Stats are posted that back up the fact a lot of his sacks were late in games -- a few occurred when the game was out of hand.
3. Homers gets POed again and call those that have observed he isn't getting as much pressure as before Ware haters (despite the fact that these 'haters' still say he is an ALL Pro and the best Dplayer on the team).
4. At least one Dallas writer comes out and says the same thing as the 'Ware Haters' - hasn't played quite as well as he can (even though he is still a great player).
5. Ware himself, comes out and says he hasn't played as well as he wanted to. Ware says that he doesn't care what the stats say. See article posted by Woodysgirl.
6. Homers, of course, don't post in that thread.
7. A thread is started that says Ware isn't as good a pass rusher as LT or Haley.
8. Homers, who supposedly watched all these guys play, will not admit that at this point, Ware doesn't get to the QB as well as LT or Haley.

This inability to look at 'improvement opportunities' with an unbiased, critical eye is exactly the issue with Wade Phillips.

I am glad that Ware himself is able to critically look at himself better than those Homers here at the Zone.

In 1987 teams gave up an average of 39.5 sacks per season.

In 2007 teams gave up an average of 34.4 sacks per season.

Now, in 2007 teams attempted on average 50 more passes per season than they did in 2007. So, does your claim that more passing attempts should equal more sacks hold up under observation?

Obviously not.

A conclusion that CAN be drawn, however, is that even though teams definitely ARE passing more in 2007 than they did in 1987, it is MORE DIFFICULT to get sacks - which supports my position.

That only proves my point more.

LT played in the 80s. He doesn't play now. Therefore, sack numbers are down.

See what I did there?

Cle, Cin and GB the sacks had little or no impact.
We can pretend all we want.
Also, it would be interesting to see how many of those sacks were coverage sacks and the QB was running around for over 5 secs - because about half of them were.
How many times do you think Ware has applied 'quick pressure' this year?

If this were Ellis, the whole forum would be saying how all his sacks were garbage and coverage sacks.

It could be that the other LB/DL are the problem...not ruling that out.

Agreed. I'd say half of his sacks have been either coverage sacks, or the pressure actually came from the other side and forced the QB to Ware.

Haley and L.T. had some pretty good defensive backs as well.

I swear some of you guys will say anything.

Look in the mirror, Slappy.

No additional info on Haley's Jock-Strap?

Zrinkill's mom would know.

Wow. This thread = fail.

Agreed.

Ask Rack

After I wiped my butt with it, I sent it to your mom. I believe she keeps it under her pillow cuz she likes the smell of it while she's falling asleep.