DMN: Safety Roy Williams wants Dallas Cowboys to act today

[Faerluna]

You've pretty much become a plate-spinner around here. It's almost like you've developed a schtick.... and a terrible one at that.

What he said.

 

[GoBoys41]

Roy blew a few up this year. Just not as many as we'd grown accustomed to.

When?? I saw nothing he did in 3 games except watch D-Jack fly by him and come over way late on an Avery deep ball. He made 2 of his 6 tackles on special teams. He was at best a non-factor and at worst

And which safety on the team is a better run safety? Davis? Not Hamlin. Which safety on the team is capable of his big play potential even is that's down a lot? Roy's not terrible. He's just not the same Roy and certainly not worth the amount of money thrown at him.

Roy's marginally better against the run than Davis and Hamlin, and it certainly doesn't make up for the fact that he is quite worse in coverage than Hamlin, which is sad because Hamlin's an average cover guy at best. And please, if Roy had big play potential he might've flashed it once since the middle of 06.

And there were times last year we missed his run support.

Our run defense was hardly different between 08 and 07, skewed by the 2 huge Ravens runs which we have no real proof Roy makes those plays either. Similar YPC allowed and actually gave up less rush TDs in 08. We didn't "miss" jack. Roy whiffs as much as any other clown on this defense.

He's still the best safety on the team although it's not saying a lot about the safeties.

I've seen enough from Hamlin in 07, and more importantly so incredibly little from Roy since 06, to say that's pretty much false.

 

[jobberone]

When?? I saw nothing he did in 3 games except watch D-Jack fly by him and come over way late on an Avery deep ball. He made 2 of his 6 tackles on special teams. He was at best a non-factor and at worst

Roy's marginally better against the run than Davis and Hamlin, and it certainly doesn't make up for the fact that he is quite worse in coverage than Hamlin, which is sad because Hamlin's an average cover guy at best. And please, if Roy had big play potential he might've flashed it once since the middle of 06.

Our run defense was hardly different between 08 and 07, skewed by the 2 huge Ravens runs which we have no real proof Roy makes those plays either. Similar YPC allowed and actually gave up less rush TDs in 08. We didn't "miss" jack. Roy whiffs as much as any other clown on this defense.


I've seen enough from Hamlin in 07, and more importantly so incredibly little from Roy since 06, to say that's pretty much false.

You may be right. But I don't believe RW is that bad in run support. Clearly the number of crunches he makes is way down but still better than the only other heavy hitter Davis. He doesn't suck at pass coverage. He is just below average and not that far behind Hamlin who is a marginal safety in the NFL as well. Again as I and others have said, it's no compliment to be the best safety on this team.

 

[DaBoys4Life]

I personally don't care what statistics anyone on this planet brings to me. Roy has lost it, he's not worth the money he was getting paid, and this is why the true brains are probably going to let him walk.

You can prove all of the arguments you want, I could care less. You can show me stat by stat from page 1 to page billion, he sucks in coverage and has become an average tackler,average awareness, no leadership, however, he does seem like a cool guy.

How did you come to these conclusions?

When?? I saw nothing he did in 3 games except watch D-Jack fly by him and come over way late on an Avery deep ball. He made 2 of his 6 tackles on special teams. He was at best a non-factor and at worst

Roy's marginally better against the run than Davis and Hamlin, and it certainly doesn't make up for the fact that he is quite worse in coverage than Hamlin, which is sad because Hamlin's an average cover guy at best. And please, if Roy had big play potential he might've flashed it once since the middle of 06.

Our run defense was hardly different between 08 and 07, skewed by the 2 huge Ravens runs which we have no real proof Roy makes those plays either. Similar YPC allowed and actually gave up less rush TDs in 08. We didn't "miss" jack. Roy whiffs as much as any other clown on this defense.


I've seen enough from Hamlin in 07, and more importantly so incredibly little from Roy since 06, to say that's pretty much false.

Name me one SS that can run with Desean Jackson in the open field.....I love how you say Hamlin in 07 but don't mention his 08 season as if he wasn't playing.....It's things like this that really piss me off. Hamlin is crap got a big paycheck and went back to his scrubby ways. He had a career season in 07 and you think thats his norm? Please he took Jerry for a ride and we got screwed on Hamlin.

 

[DaBoys4Life]

You may be right. But I don't believe RW is that bad in run support. Clearly the number of crunches he makes is way down but still better than the only other heavy hitter Davis. He doesn't suck at pass coverage. He is just below average and not that far behind Hamlin who is a marginal safety in the NFL as well. Again as I and others have said, it's no compliment to be the best safety on this team.

I think he's better in coverage than Hamlin truthfully.

 

[jobberone]

I think he's better in coverage than Hamlin truthfully.

That's depressing to think.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

:clap2:


I'm no professional, but it probably doesn't help that his ego is constantly stroked around here by some that can't add or subtract, or take the time do their own research.

LOL! That's hilarious. Taking a shot at a bunch of other posters who value someones opinion, on a totally unrelated subject than Roy Williams, simply because you don't agree with his opinion on Roy. That's awesome.

Ah, nothing like hearing something about Roy on the radio and ending my brief hiatus to come back here...knowing there would be a raging "discussion." Now, it seems as people are licking their chops to dog pile Adam because they believe they can claim they were "right all along." In reality, Roy hasn't been as bad as people make him out to be, period. But, now that his career may be ending here, people will believe it is proof that he has been terrible all along.

Not only that, but there are professional opinions being formed over the internet, which I find to be quite entertaining. Nothing like e-psychoanalysis to brighten my day...I kid, I kid.

LOL. This made me laugh. Nothing against Job, or anything, cause the guy seems like a really good dude, and is pretty respectful about how he posts, but this did make me laugh.

While Adam might have been correct on some of his points (yes, Roy did have a lot of tackles [even Adam admits that tackles is a subjective statistic]), the fact that Roy is on the verge of being released proves, "substantially," that Adam overestimated Roy's value to the Cowboys.

Hmmm...interesting take. So because a team cuts a player that means his value, for his entire career, was overestimated?

I guess that Derrick Brooks must have been terrible in Tampa all these years, since they let him go.

Jerry Rice must have SUCKED eggs since the Niners eventually decided he wasn't worth bringing back.

Gosh that Emmitt Smith fella was a terrible player so Dallas had no choice but to cut him.


Now, understand, I'm not saying Roy is in the league of any of those above players, not even close, but using "They're cutting him so that shows you how much he's been worth to this team" is a very bad way to go about it. Players get cut, every year, for all sorts of reasons.


Has Roy been bad the last few years in coverage? No doubt. I don't know how anyone could refute it. Has he been the worst player on the defense during that same time? Maybe, that's debatable IMHO.


Is Roy making too much for his current level of play? No doubt. Are the Cowboys looking to move him, right now, because they know they have better options on this team already or are they moving him (That being trade or release) because of the money? It's pretty clear it's the money. If he was at a vet minimum right now there wouldn't be a peep about trying to trade or release him.

Roy is Roy. He shows flashes, now and again, of being a good player once more and he shows a lot of finger pointing when he gets beaten in coverage. The guy is neither as great, as he once was thought to be, or as horrible as he's often made out to be as a player in the NFL.

 

[Doomsay]

It will be interesting to see how the market values Roy - what teams will be interested and at what price. He is fairly young and other than a recent arm injury, has been very healthy. Again, I wonder if any team in our division will take him?

Of course part two will be his play. Will he get into a system that works for him?

 

[EveryoneElse]

LOL! That's hilarious. Taking a shot at a bunch of other posters who value someones opinion, on a totally unrelated subject than Roy Williams, simply because you don't agree with his opinion on Roy. That's awesome.

Guess I struck a nerve with you.

I stand by what I said, and I never called anyone out by name.

All I said was it's no wonder the guy comes off like an ego-maniac when his ego is constantly stroked around here.

If this offends you.......then it offends you.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Guess I struck a nerve with you.

I stand by what I said, and I never called anyone out by name.

All I said was it's no wonder the guy comes off like an ego-maniac when his ego is constantly stroked around here.

If this offends you.......then it offends you.

Nope. Doesn't offend me. It made me laugh. As all statements like that do. It's the usual internet 'being tough' attitude that you see on message boards. It gives me a chuckle and we all move on and continue to chuckle at one another.

I really don't understand, to be quite honest, how people get super offended about things said on a message board. Even at times when something has rubbed me the wrong way it's only for a few minutes and then I step back and remind myself that it's an opinion on a message board from a person that doesn't make a bit of difference, or matter in the least bit, to my life personally.

If we'd all just remember that it's all opinion, myself included in this, and that what someone thinks over a Cowboys forum message board doesn't have any merit or bearing on our lives then I think people would get along a lot better.

*Shrugs* But who knows.

 

[AdamJT13]

I'm going to call you on this one Adam. We got into it 2-3 years ago (or so) about Roy's play. You have consistently presented your side of the story defending Roy with stats aplenty. You definitely tried to punk people who vigorously disagreed with you. You have never ever said you were wrong nor offered apologies to the people you insulted.

It appears you always think you're right and I've never seen you retract, apologize, etc. Even when it eventually became very clear you were absolutely wrong.

I'd say in my professional opinion you definitely have a very large ego, deflect when confronted, or start in with aggressive remarks to defend yourself.

I would like to point out that I have the same problems at times but I would like to think I can apologize for being clearly wrong on something esp when it's pointed out to me by more than one person.

If you want respect on this board then perhaps you need to reflect on it instead of complaining about it. It is definitely ok to be wrong and not perfect. It only makes us human.

Again, what are you claiming I was wrong about?

 

[Idgit]

Guess I struck a nerve with you.

I stand by what I said, and I never called anyone out by name.

All I said was it's no wonder the guy comes off like an ego-maniac when his ego is constantly stroked around here.

If this offends you.......then it offends you.

Adam gets respect b/c he's a great poster. His opinions are thought out and supported. He also brings value to the board we couldn't get elsewhere. Personally, it's amusing to watch him bully people intellectually. There are posters here who can dish it out and take it, and there are others who cannot. A chat board is a place where you should get hammered if you can't protect your own opinion.

Either way, it's really interesting to see what type of posters are offended by him and why.

 

[AdamJT13]

Right. Adam, seriously. It has been like pulling teeth to get you to admit that Roy's play has slipped.

I've never been reluctant to evaluate Roy's play, and I've always done so exactly how I think he's played, whether that's good or bad. Maybe you're just frustrated because your opinion isn't always the same as mine, or because I don't throw out insults like a third-grader, make up stuff and say things that are untrue, I don't know. You seem to prefer people's opinions that include that type of stuff over rational analysis.

To add to Job's diagnosis, I will say this. It is clear that you a) possess some incredible data sources that are truly unique and b) have excellent accounting and above average statistical skills. However, you unfortunately bristle whenever challenged. I expect this is likely because you go through life being "the numbers guy" -- everyone just takes what you say at work or wherever as correct. That isn't going to fly here. Some of us have some pretty mad skills in those areas as well and are going to call BS on you at times. Accept that and enjoy it rather than getting all semantic and defensive.

Thanks for the psychoanalysis, but you're wrong. I'm not a "numbers guy" in real life.

And it's funny how you claim not to be afraid to "call me out" or whatever, but not a single one of you has pointed out one time when you think I've been wrong, even though I keep asking.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I think he's better in coverage than Hamlin truthfully.

geez, I hate Hamlin

 

[Cowboyz88]

I appreciate your take as well, but you're more or less making my point for me.

Brooks, Rice, and Smith were ALL what Roy supporters, at one point, felt he was — superstar, face-of-the-franchise players. How many Roy-is-destined-for-the-Hall comments can you recall from his first two years?

IMO, during his amazing rookie year, Roy built up expectations so high that he NEVER lived up to them. Understand, I'm not talking just about the detractors but his supporters as well. Die-hard Roy supporters stood by him through all the years because they were still punch-drunk from his first few seasons. If he got a pick, they'd scream something similar to, "see, he hasn't left" or "boy, he's back!" Basically, they were looking for anything from him that replicated that high of his rookie year, and in doing so, they refused to see that his impact plays (passes defended, tackles for loss, INTs, sacks) for the most part had come way down. So, they threw out tackle stats as the end-all, be-all proof to his prowess, because it's really all they had.

I know Roy had a lot of tackles, but do lots of tackles make a franchise player? Adam Archuleta LED his team in tackles for two years, while Roy never has. D'Qwell Jackson LED the league in tackles last year, so is he a franchise player? Hardly.

So, looking beyond the tackles with Roy what do you have? Not many impact plays, especially in recent years. So, he's more-or-less an average safety, and hardly worth all the $$$, praise or fuss.

I also get that players get cut. Happens all the time.

That said, YOUNG, superstar, franchise players almost never get away. Brooks? 35. Rice? 35. Emmitt? 33, after 12 years with the team.

Roy is 28 with a few years remaining on his existing contract. He should be king of the Cowboys right now, instead he's about to be handed his walking papers.

So yes, I'd say he's value to the team has been overestimated by many of his supporters.

Hmmm...interesting take. So because a team cuts a player that means his value, for his entire career, was overestimated?

I guess that Derrick Brooks must have been terrible in Tampa all these years, since they let him go.

Jerry Rice must have SUCKED eggs since the Niners eventually decided he wasn't worth bringing back.

Gosh that Emmitt Smith fella was a terrible player so Dallas had no choice but to cut him.


Now, understand, I'm not saying Roy is in the league of any of those above players, not even close, but using "They're cutting him so that shows you how much he's been worth to this team" is a very bad way to go about it. Players get cut, every year, for all sorts of reasons.


Has Roy been bad the last few years in coverage? No doubt. I don't know how anyone could refute it. Has he been the worst player on the defense during that same time? Maybe, that's debatable IMHO.


Is Roy making too much for his current level of play? No doubt. Are the Cowboys looking to move him, right now, because they know they have better options on this team already or are they moving him (That being trade or release) because of the money? It's pretty clear it's the money. If he was at a vet minimum right now there wouldn't be a peep about trying to trade or release him.

 

[AdamJT13]

I appreciate your take as well, but you're more or less making my point for me.

Brooks, Rice, and Smith were ALL what Roy supporters, at one point, felt he was — superstar, face-of-the-franchise players. How many Roy-is-destined-for-the-Hall comments can you recall from his first two years?

IMO, during his amazing rookie year, Roy built up expectations so high that he NEVER lived up to them. Understand, I'm not talking just about the detractors but his supporters as well. Die-hard Roy supporters stood by him through all the years because they were still punch-drunk from his first few seasons. If he got a pick, they'd scream something similar to, "see, he hasn't left" or "boy, he's back!" Basically, they were looking for anything from him that replicated that high of his rookie year, and in doing so, they refused to see that his impact plays (passes defended, tackles for loss, INTs, sacks) for the most part had come way down. So, they (led by good 'ol Adam) threw out tackle stats as the end-all, be-all proof to his prowess, because it's really all they had.

Please link to one time when I've ever "thrown out tackle stats as the end-all, be-all proof to his prowess."

 

[Idgit]

That said, YOUNG, superstar, franchise players almost never get away. Brooks? 35. Rice? 35. Emmitt? 33, after 12 years with the team.

Roy is 28 with a few years remaining on his existing contract. He should be king of the Cowboys right now, instead he's about to be handed his walking papers.

So yes, I'd say he's value to the team has been overestimated by many of his supporters.

Albert Haynesworth and the Commanders might disagree with you. Talented young players get away all the time, when they're contracts or their asking price exceed their current worth to their team.

I've been firmly in the camp that Roy's been treated unfairly by many Cowboy fans, and I never was a big fan of the guy. I still don't like him that much. It's just annoying to watch a player who's one of the better players in the league at his position get lambasted unfairly just because people expect him to be better than he really is. Roy's got plenty of limitations and makes his share of mistakes. Everybody sees that. But the guy's not terrible in coverage, he is a good tackler, and he is somebody we definitely could have used on the field last year.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Well walking away in FA and having your contract cut cause you've under performed really aren't the same thing. Things like Albert Haynesworth aren't really in the same realm as to what may or may not happen to Roy in regards to his Cowboys career.

 

[Idgit]

Well walking away in FA and having your contract cut cause you've under performed really aren't the same thing. Things like Albert Haynesworth aren't really in the same realm as to what may or may not happen to Roy in regards to his Cowboys career.

It's not exactly the same, but it's not all that different. NFL contracts are unilateral, and the team can cut a player or elect to let him walk at any point. The difference for a player under contract are the cap implications of the remaining years of the deal. But fundamentally, when your net impact on the cap dramatically exceeds your worth, you're usually gone. Roy's definitely upside down, and enough upside down that it's apparently not worth it to the team to renegotiate, but that doesn't mean he won't be a valuable player for somebody.

 

[Cowboyz88]

Perfect summation.

Thank you.

Talented young players get away all the time, when they're contracts or their asking price exceed their current worth to their team.