DMN | Who's the better draft pick: Larry Allen or Michael Irvin

[Doomsday101]

Love the devauling of O-line play in this thread.

"Irvin made more plays for us." No kidding, look at the positions they play.

I think the Oline play is critical. I picked Irvin because of his play but also because of the whole package he brought to the team. I went to many training camps in Austin and saw Irvin keeping the team going late in the afternoon when others were sucking wind and we all saw Irvin on the sideline and on the field and what he brought to the team outside of his play. I hate threads like this of pitting one great player vs another both were important but I still think Irvin was the heart and soul of that team and that is hard to replace.

 

[zrinkill]

Love the devauling of O-line play in this thread.

I do not think that is happening in this thread.

 

[JPM]

I wonder how many catches Irvin would have if Aikman were unable to throw the ball. The game is played first and foremost on the line.

This is what you get when all most people today know about football is what they see on SportsCenter. :bang2: :bang2: :bang2:

Sorta like the jailbreak when Romo dropped back in the Vikings playoff loss.

 

[THUMPER]

Sorta like the jailbreak when Romo dropped back in the Vikings playoff loss.

Pretty much.

 

[MapleLeaf]

...who is the better draft pick. Take it either way - better player or better value and it has to be Larry Allen.

1. Drafted further down in the selection order.
2. Played positions of greater value to a football team than Irvin.
3. Greater individual results when determined by a panel of peers.

The argument is obvious when the draft selection order is discussed. I won't even bother with this one.

Second, if you have ever really coached football never mind played football to have as dominant a player in the outside (4) positions at lineman is unbelievable. The game starts with the protection of the QB and ends with it.

If you cannot be effective from the pivot position then there is no hope for a team. As a coach you learn right away in football that having time back in the pocket is what makes a offence run. Never mind the man we are talking about was effective as a pass protector and a road grader for our backs.

You won't hear many arguments from coaches, players or media about how Irvin was the greatest WR in the NFL or even the greatest Cowboy, but there sure are lots of coaches, players and media reporters who have said that Allen is possibly the best at his position to ever play the game.

Just google the topic of greatest lineman ever and you will find Larry Allen much more than you will ever hear Michael Irvin for greatest WR ever.

Here's a taste: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-countdowns/09000d5d811390f3/Top-5-Offensive-linemen

I don't take Warren Sapp as the greatest analyst, but I do accept his personal opinion on his experience in the trenches.

Some of you point out to Irvin's contributions to winning Superbowls, and while they may not be diminished, as a coach and a Dallas fan I put out the opinion that winning is a team element made possible by all the players.

You don't draft single players thinking they alone will win you the Superbowl. You draft players to fits the needs of your team, play a role in your locker room and contribute in harmony with the other (53) players you have on your payroll to hopefully field a winner at the end of a season.

Saying one man singularly makes a greater contribution to being a Superbowl winner is contrary to what makes football a great game.

It's possibly one of the reasons why Larry Allen is not getting his due in the face of another player such as Irvin who plays a much more media friendly and sexier position.

 

[THUMPER]

Saying one man singularly makes a greater contribution to being a Superbowl winner is contrary to what makes football a great game.

What a great statement!

 

[Doomsday101]

...who is the better draft pick. Take it either way - better player or better value and it has to be Larry Allen.

1. Drafted further down in the selection order.
2. Played positions of greater value to a football team than Irvin.
3. Greater individual results when determined by a panel of peers.

The argument is obvious when the draft selection order is discussed. I won't even bother with this one.

Second, if you have ever really coached football never mind played football to have as dominant a player in the outside (4) positions at lineman is unbelievable. The game starts with the protection of the QB and ends with it.

If you cannot be effective from the pivot position then there is no hope for a team. As a coach you learn right away in football that having time back in the pocket is what makes a offence run. Never mind the man we are talking about was effective as a pass protector and a road grader for our backs.

You won't hear many arguments from coaches, players or media about how Irvin was the greatest WR in the NFL or even the greatest Cowboy, but there sure are lots of coaches, players and media reporters who have said that Allen is possibly the best at his position to ever play the game.

Just google the topic of greatest lineman ever and you will find Larry Allen much more than you will ever hear Michael Irvin for greatest WR ever.

Here's a taste: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-countdowns/09000d5d811390f3/Top-5-Offensive-linemen

I don't take Warren Sapp as the greatest analyst, but I do accept his personal opinion on his experience in the trenches.

Some of you point out to Irvin's contributions to winning Superbowls, and while they may not be diminished, as a coach and a Dallas fan I put out the opinion that winning is a team element made possible by all the players.

You don't draft single players thinking they alone will win you the Superbowl. You draft players to fits the needs of your team, play a role in your locker room and contribute in harmony with the other (53) players you have on your payroll to hopefully field a winner at the end of a season.

Saying one man singularly makes a greater contribution to being a Superbowl winner is contrary to what makes football a great game.

It's possibly one of the reasons why Larry Allen is not getting his due in the face of another player such as Irvin who plays a much more media friendly and sexier position.

I don't dispute what you are saying. I will say I think Irvin was more than just a WR. Again what he brought to the team when guys were hanging their heads and how he could rally the troops to me is what made Irvin more special than just a talented WR. Irvin passion for the game and his desire to win really helped motivate that team. I do agree Allen was the best lineman in the game but I also think Irvin gave this team the mojo or whatever you want to call it to never give up and never quit

 

[jterrell]

This is a really tough call IMHO.

Both guys are clear cut Hall of Famers.

Allen is super dominant but at OG... Michael Irvin was only the 2nd or 3rd best player of his era at WR but he was also the team's emotional leader and Irvin played on the Super Bowl teams as the main WR.

 

[Doomsday101]

This is a really tough call IMHO.

Both guys are clear cut Hall of Famers.

Allen is super dominant but at OG... Michael Irvin was only the 2nd or 3rd best player of his era at WR but he was also the team's emotional leader and Irvin played on the Super Bowl teams as the main WR.

True it is like asking what is more important oxygen or water. :laugh2:

 

[jterrell]

...who is the better draft pick. Take it either way - better player or better value and it has to be Larry Allen.

1. Drafted further down in the selection order.
2. Played positions of greater value to a football team than Irvin.
3. Greater individual results when determined by a panel of peers.

The argument is obvious when the draft selection order is discussed. I won't even bother with this one.

Second, if you have ever really coached football never mind played football to have as dominant a player in the outside (4) positions at lineman is unbelievable. The game starts with the protection of the QB and ends with it.

If you cannot be effective from the pivot position then there is no hope for a team. As a coach you learn right away in football that having time back in the pocket is what makes a offence run. Never mind the man we are talking about was effective as a pass protector and a road grader for our backs.

You won't hear many arguments from coaches, players or media about how Irvin was the greatest WR in the NFL or even the greatest Cowboy, but there sure are lots of coaches, players and media reporters who have said that Allen is possibly the best at his position to ever play the game.

Just google the topic of greatest lineman ever and you will find Larry Allen much more than you will ever hear Michael Irvin for greatest WR ever.

Here's a taste: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-countdowns/09000d5d811390f3/Top-5-Offensive-linemen

I don't take Warren Sapp as the greatest analyst, but I do accept his personal opinion on his experience in the trenches.

Some of you point out to Irvin's contributions to winning Superbowls, and while they may not be diminished, as a coach and a Dallas fan I put out the opinion that winning is a team element made possible by all the players.

You don't draft single players thinking they alone will win you the Superbowl. You draft players to fits the needs of your team, play a role in your locker room and contribute in harmony with the other (53) players you have on your payroll to hopefully field a winner at the end of a season.

Saying one man singularly makes a greater contribution to being a Superbowl winner is contrary to what makes football a great game.

It's possibly one of the reasons why Larry Allen is not getting his due in the face of another player such as Irvin who plays a much more media friendly and sexier position.

First, let me say this is a really, really good post.

I absolutely disagree with your thesis but this is how you write a post.

Now to rebut certain key points:
Football is definitely a team sport but different players have different roles and Irvin was the rah rah leader for us. He was our swagger. It's a team sport but we lose a key guy and we will suffer mightily. If anyone followed the Cowboys of the epic era when Irvin was out injured it deflated our entire team.

Offensive Guard is not a more important position than WR. At best they are similar. You can simply look at what position gets paid more to identify the value the NFL teams place there.

I think it is a very close call.

 

[Derinyar]

I would pretty much always chose the dominant OL over the dominant WR. A good qb with enough time can usually make mediocre WRs look great.

The game is won and lost on the OL and the DL. Larry Allen I would take over almost every WR in history. The case can be made for Rice. I love me some Irvin, but I don't think I could justify taking a top 20 WR over a top 2 OL, even if guard is a "lesser" spot.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

I figured since people were quoting from this article in different posts, I would just post the whole article...plus it is one of my favorite articles about a player.

http://www.cbssports.com/b/page/pressbox/0,1328,5646870,00.html

Aug. 27, 2002
By Jay Glazer
SportsLine.com Senior Writer
Tell Jay your opinion!




(SportsLine.com Two-a-Days: NFL division previews begin Aug. 29)

As the preseason heads for the home stretch, season preview guides are multiplying on newsstands across the country. The glossies that grace these mags and newspaper pullouts will shine with stars du jour like Marshall Faulk, Brett Favre, Kurt Warner and Peyton Manning. The Ray Lewises and Michael Strahans are photographed in formidable poses.

But none of these publications will dare put the NFL's most dominating player on its cover. The man who causes more weekly destruction than any of the aforementioned superstars will again be overlooked.

The true story of football is not about dazzling statistics and marketable marauders. It's about pain, violence and the bloody fistfights in the trenches.

Nobody is more destructive than the Cowboys' massive offensive lineman Larry Allen.

He's never found in fantasy football guides and rarely discussed in NFL chat rooms. He certainly won't be a cover boy for People's sexiest athletes or the cover story previewing the league's superstars.

But in the reality that comes calling on Sunday afternoons, Allen could be considered the NFL's top player. He is certainly the most dominating.

I know, I know ... Larry Allen?

"No doubt, Larry is the most dominating guy in the league," said former teammate and future Hall of Fame cornerback Deion Sanders. "It may not even be close."

Though much of the attention heading into this season will focus on the Faulks, Warners and Mannings, Allen is the choice for the league's most dominant player, position-by-position. Don't just take our word for it.

"We call him the legalized killer," Strahan said of the man he also calls the best blocker he has seen. "He doesn't just block people, he hurts people. He is such a force that you really don't see anywhere else. He's probably the only guy who you watch on film who makes you cringe. He does something every week where you actually feel bad for the people who are playing him."

It's not a difficult assessment to agree with, provided you've tasted the blood of these fights before.

"Larry Allen has the potential to embarrass more players than anybody else in the league on any given week," said former Pro Bowl offensive lineman and current CBS Sports analyst Randy Cross. "Marshall Faulk can put a move on a couple guys in a game and make them look bad. Kurt Warner can beat a corner or safety on a deep pass for a touchdown and make that guy look bad. But Larry has the force to humiliate groups of people and he does it on a regular basis."

One of the factors in choosing him the league's best pound-for-pound player is how much more he dominates his slot than other stars at their respective positions.

But Allen is in a class by himself. The No. 2 guard, Pittsburgh's Alan Faneca, is a terrific player, but the difference between the two is vast.

The top tackle, Jon Ogden, is tremendous, but he has been dominating at pretty much one slot. Allen's versatility is another factor that separates him from the pack.

Consider this: Allen has been selected to the All-Pro Team in each of the past seven seasons -- at three different positions. He has also been voted into the Pro Bowl eight times at four different slots.

* He began his Pro Bowl binge at right tackle in 1994.
* He then moved his path of destruction inside to right guard from '95 to the final three games of the 1997 season.
* Over the next 19 regular-season games, he humiliated right defensive ends at the left tackle slot. In fact, there was a four-game stretch in which he faced four of the league's top pass rushers. Total sacks he allowed: zippo. Big fat 0.
* In 1999, Allen was again moved, this time to the left guard slot where he was able to feast on an entirely new group of victims.

"The fact that he excelled at each of those positions should surprise absolutely nobody," says Cross, himself a multiposition Pro Bowl lineman. "I don't think there's a guy who has dominated the way he does since probably (Hall of Fame tackle) John Hannah."

He brings an element that most others lack: the ability to strike fear. Allen is what Mike Tyson was in the '80s. Opponents quiver at the scale.

"Basically I try to go out there and punk them, make them quit," Allen said of his Sunday routine. "It's either him or me and it's not going to be me."

He brings fear to Sunday. His Sunday Sabbath does not bring rest for the body, or refreshment for the soul, but it does elicit prayer as in, 'Lord, please don't let me get hurt by this beast today.'

"Oh, it definitely happens; guys will look to find a way out when they have to play him," Strahan said. "The saddest thing is how many players will watch him on film during the week and then, as the game gets closer, they pull up with some mysterious injury or flu or something. We call that catching 'Allen-itis.'"

It happens more than people know.

"It's so bad that it's caused some guys to actually get crafty," Sanders said. "Guys aren't going down anymore with an ankle or hamstring on Wednesday. Now guys look ahead on the schedule and make sure they go down with an injury in the third or fourth quarter of the game before they play Dallas.

"I'm not fooling. If you take a look at all the "injuries" some linemen have had over the years, it's amazing how devastating the Larry Allen syndrome can be."

One former player relayed this story:

A few years back, his teammates insisted on Wednesday that their starting defensive tackle would not play that Sunday vs. Dallas. The cause? Allen-itis. After a day of watching Allen on film actually hurt a variety of linemen, his teammates knew the DT was not going to want any part of Allen's destruction.

Sure enough, game day found the DT complaining of flu-like symptoms.

"Yeah, I've seen that a lot," said Allen, who fought his way off the mean streets of Compton, Calif. "Sometimes you can also tell in the first series that they aren't all there. You can look in their eyes, and if they don't look back at you, you got them."

Allen's tenacity and strength are his best traits. Last year, he was filmed bench-pressing a stunning 700 pounds, easily making him the league's strongest Pro Bowl player.

"Sometimes I get too aggressive, and I'll get out of balance if I'm trying to kill a guy," he says. "If I'm playing a guy and he tries to muscle me, it's just not going to happen."

While others can also dominate with strength, they don't combine this brute force with the nastiest on-field demeanor in the league.

"When I'm pulling around the end and see my guy, I'm just thinking I want to mess him up," Allen says in between quick chuckles. "Some turn around, some try to avoid me, some just go down. My dominance is my strength."

He isn't a cover boy. But he has a better claim to fame -- when Larry Allen rolls your way, boy, you better run for cover.

Anybody got a problem with our choice? Yeah, didn't think so.

 

[CoCo]

To me this thread illustrates why there are often bad feelings amongst posters on this site.

Too many folks aren't content to simply build their case to support their opinion. They also have to present their opinion as fact and those who disagree "don't get it."

What I mostly "don't get" is why people have the need to elevate their opinion above the opinion of others.

You plant seeds of disrespect and that too is what you'll harvest. To me, it's sad.

 

[MapleLeaf]

...I think all of us who a football fans and Cowboys fans will be humbled when Allen is inducted into the Hall of Fame.

Despite those last days as a Cowboy when his physical skills had diminished the discussions and tributes from fellow players and peers will truly be amazing.

I am expecting one of the greatest periods of pro football play at the lineman position to get its due and I expect a landslide of comments from many players on the defensive side to finally nail the argument that Larry Allen was one of the greatest, if not the greatest, lineman ever to play the game.

It's just the nature of the situation that right now he is not on anyone's radar. He's out of pro football and he's not eligible for the Hall.

Truly a biting commentary on the state of the game and the nature of its fandom in regards to the contributions of the offensive lineman and the concept of protection being a vital part of the game.

If I was Tony Romo and I could select any player in history to be a free agent on my team this year, before the thoughts of Jerry Rice, Irvin, Campbell, Payton, etc I would asking for Larry Allen, Munoz, Munchak, Shell, Upshaw, Walter Jones and John Hannah.

It's only in the trenches where the violence is the greatest on a regular basis is the game really that perfect and infinitely sublime. That's Larry Allen...violent, often times perfect and in his quiet and humble demeanor sublime.

 

[DFWJC]

Irvin is one of my all-time favorites due to his warrior attitude and practice habits....

But, imo, Allen was the better pick---especially when you take into account where they were both selected in the draft.

Plus the LT position (along with QB, edge rusher and shutdown corner) is more valuable in general.

 

[MapleLeaf]

First, let me say this is a really, really good post.

I absolutely disagree with your thesis but this is how you write a post.

Now to rebut certain key points:
Football is definitely a team sport but different players have different roles and Irvin was the rah rah leader for us. He was our swagger. It's a team sport but we lose a key guy and we will suffer mightily. If anyone followed the Cowboys of the epic era when Irvin was out injured it deflated our entire team.

Offensive Guard is not a more important position than WR. At best they are similar. You can simply look at what position gets paid more to identify the value the NFL teams place there.

I think it is a very close call.

...I would never build a team from the WR position first. Pro or otherwise.

If you believe in the premise that the NFL is a passing league with the pivot being the most important position the argument is then settled.

If you have ever coached in minor or HS or collegiate ranks you will know how many people are trying out in the O-line positions as opposed to the WR positions.

You can find WR and serviceable ones. There's no such standard that fans will accept for lineman and you will often see that being displayed by displeasure when the protection breaks down or there are no holes for the runner.

Rah, rah guys are everywhere and you don't even have to draft them. See Brooking.

We are talking about elite physical skill here and Allen has it in spades over Irvin.

 

[Tobal]

Irvin is my favorite player, and he was the heart and soul of those teams, but when he came out of Miami eveyone knew him and knew he would impact the NFL. He was taken in the middle of the first round.

When Larry Allen was drafted we all moaned and said, who? Sonoma State? Larry was so good there was an article written about how DL guys "developed" injuries during the week before playing Dallas. Larry Allen embarrassed and humiliated the best DTs in the game every week.

 

[MapleLeaf]

To me this thread illustrates why there are often bad feelings amongst posters on this site.

Too many folks aren't content to simply build their case to support their opinion. They also have to present their opinion as fact and those who disagree "don't get it."

What I mostly "don't get" is why people have the need to elevate their opinion above the opinion of others.

You plant seeds of disrespect and that too is what you'll harvest. To me, it's sad.

...I run into all the time as a football coach.

Far too many are swayed by the sexy offensive players who run up and down the sidelines make the showy plays.

Many will learn as they spend more time not only watching the game, but if you ever can coach or volunteer at any level of football to truly learn the many facets of the game.

Offensive lineman are often relegated to the bottom of the radar and as it has been said time and again only get press when they have made a penalty.

For myself the reality has been otherwise.

Two years ago I spent some time talking to John Levra, NFL position coach for players such as Dan Hampton, John Randle and Bruce Smith to name a few.

When the defences he was on talked about game planning against the wide receivers they faced more often than not they didn't discuss how they were going to beat the WR with coverages or a player one on one. Rather they discussed how they were going to beat the offensive lineman in gaps and get to the QB as a way to negate the contributions of the WR.

You can easily take a WR out of the game, but it's hard to take a Hall of Fame lineman out of the game completely. John coaches in the era of Allen and he told me knowing I was a Cowboys fan how they would give up on the gaps to either side of Allen. They felt it was a win against Larry if they could just occupy him.

It's time for lineman to get their due and I'm surprised as Cowboys fans with the recent result we have had in Minnesota the o-lineman aren't truly appreciated for what they can offer.

 

[CoCo]

...I would never build a team from the WR position first. Pro or otherwise.

If you believe in the premise that the NFL is a passing league with the pivot being the most important position the argument is then settled.

If you have ever coached in minor or HS or collegiate ranks you will know how many people are trying out in the O-line positions as opposed to the WR positions.

You can find WR and serviceable ones. There's no such standard that fans will accept for lineman and you will often see that being displayed by displeasure when the protection breaks down or there are no holes for the runner.

Rah, rah guys are everywhere and you don't even have to draft them. See Brooking.

We are talking about elite physical skill here and Allen has it in spades over Irvin.

I respect your opinion. But I disagree with your logic.

I give you Roy11 & Kyle Kosier as examples but you can choose others as well.

And simply being rah-rah doesn't make you a leader. You so discredit Irvin's contribution with that statement. It would be similarly wrong to suggest you can find a fat guy on every street corner to stand in front of a D-lineman for a few seconds til the QB throws the ball.

 

[CoCo]

...I run into all the time as a football coach.

Far too many are swayed by the sexy offensive players who run up and down the sidelines make the showy plays.

Many will learn as they spend more time not only watching the game, but if you ever can coach or volunteer at any level of football to truly learn the many facets of the game.

Offensive lineman are often relegated to the bottom of the radar and as it has been said time and again only get press when they have made a penalty.

For myself the reality has been otherwise.

Two years ago I spent some time talking to John Levra, NFL position coach for players such as Dan Hampton, John Randle and Bruce Smith to name a few.

When the defences he was on talked about game planning against the wide receivers they faced more often than not they didn't discuss how they were going to beat the WR with coverages or a player one on one. Rather they discussed how they were going to beat the offensive lineman in gaps and get to the QB as a way to negate the contributions of the WR.

You can easily take a WR out of the game, but it's hard to take a Hall of Fame lineman out of the game completely. John coaches in the era of Allen and he told me knowing I was a Cowboys fan how they would give up on the gaps to either side of Allen. They felt it was a win against Larry if they could just occupy him.

It's time for lineman to get their due and I'm surprised as Cowboys fans with the recent result we have had in Minnesota the o-lineman aren't truly appreciated for what they can offer.

I guess I don't understand why you think choosing Irvin ahead of Allen means I don't appreciate Larry Allen or the work of the lineman in general. I simply give Irvin a slight nod over Allen in the overall value of his contributions to our team's success. That is not meant to diminish the value of Allen one iota.