DMN | Who's the better draft pick: Larry Allen or Michael Irvin

[MapleLeaf]

Allen was drafted in 94 and left in 2004 we did not have alot of winning season over that period. Larry was great but Larry at his peak was not enough.

...than Irvin as a draft pick. Much, much better.

When Irvin was drafted they expected him to be the player he was.

When Allen was drafted I haven't heard too many people saying he would possibly be the greatest guard to ever play the game.

Much better draft pick. (Thread title.)

 

[5Stars]

A tad off course, but, someone refresh my memory. What was it that LA benched sometime in his career? Was it 600 lbs or 800 lbs? I know it was somewhere in that range. (either that or I had a dream about it)!

 

[MapleLeaf]

Imagine what kind of clarity and insight you'll have then when you reach my age. I've got you by 6 years. But of course that point has little application to this issue does it?

And I'll have to disagree again on your 2nd point as well. Irvin, and every player drafted is selected for the entire package they bring to the team (athleticism, skills & character). Of course Mike was selected because the perceived sum total was so great. Fortunately, he delivered on all that and more (good & bad).

Allen, similarly played beyond draft expectations.

...the clarity really didn't come with age, it came with more time spent on another part of the field - the sidelines and having to deal with the issues from that vantage point. Years only played a part in the fact that I needed those years to put in the time as a coach and learn the game form a different aspect.

Second to say that Allen "played beyond draft expectations." would make any Cowboys fan spit in their beer.

It was well beyond what Irvin accomplished in his career and well beyond what any GM could ever hope for.

In the second round out of Sonoma State you draft arguably the greatest guard to ever play? I think you are understating Allen's accomplishment.

 

[MapleLeaf]

A tad off course, but, someone refresh my memory. What was it that LA benched sometime in his career? Was it 600 lbs or 800 lbs? I know it was somewhere in that range. (either that or I had a dream about it)!

...the sadness in Larry's story.

If he would have taken Parcells advice and worked on his legs more than his arms he may have extended his career of excellence.

As a young man he possessed amazing foot speed and age diminished his physical ability he began to lean on his superior upper body strength to overcome his reduced mobility.

I remember the Zone discussing and posting videos of Larry's final season with Dallas and the embarassing whiffed blocks he had on guys out in space.

Not the Larry we all knew and unfortunately the beginning of the end for a great player.

 

[CoCo]

...than Irvin as a draft pick. Much, much better.

When Irvin was drafted they expected him to be the player he was.

When Allen was drafted I haven't heard too many people saying he would possibly be the greatest guard to ever play the game.

Much better draft pick. (Thread title.)

It's actually left up to the participant to decide what "better draft pick" means. It's not necessarily contribution versus where they were picked.

My comments really were based entirely on whose overall contributions to the team were greater. One might argue that in the case of these two players their massive contributions make irrelevant the small difference in draft slots between them.

But if you truly are using their respective draft slots as a key differentiation, so be it. I didn't really pick that up in our exchange.

 

[5Stars]

...the sadness in Larry's story.

If he would have taken Parcells advice and worked on his legs more than his arms he may have extended his career of excellence.

As a young man he possessed amazing foot speed and age diminished his physical ability he began to lean on his superior upper body strength to overcome his reduced mobility.

I remember the Zone discussing and posting videos of Larry's final season with Dallas and the embarassing whiffed blocks he had on guys out in space.

Not the Larry we all knew and unfortunately the beginning of the end for a great player.

I found this...


WICHITA FALLS, Texas (AP) — Larry Allen is already respected throughout the NFL as one of the best offensive linemen. Soon, the powerlifting community may start taking note of him, too.

Allen recently bench pressed 700 pounds, 65 more than the career-best he lifted last summer and well into the world-class level. Put another way, Allen lifted about 30 pounds more than the combined weight of Baltimore tackles Tony Siragusa and Sam Adams. It's also more than the combined playing weight of Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith and Michael Irvin.




:laugh2:

 

[jterrell]

...I run into all the time as a football coach.

Far too many are swayed by the sexy offensive players who run up and down the sidelines make the showy plays.

Many will learn as they spend more time not only watching the game, but if you ever can coach or volunteer at any level of football to truly learn the many facets of the game.

Offensive lineman are often relegated to the bottom of the radar and as it has been said time and again only get press when they have made a penalty.

For myself the reality has been otherwise.

Two years ago I spent some time talking to John Levra, NFL position coach for players such as Dan Hampton, John Randle and Bruce Smith to name a few.

When the defences he was on talked about game planning against the wide receivers they faced more often than not they didn't discuss how they were going to beat the WR with coverages or a player one on one. Rather they discussed how they were going to beat the offensive lineman in gaps and get to the QB as a way to negate the contributions of the WR.

You can easily take a WR out of the game, but it's hard to take a Hall of Fame lineman out of the game completely. John coaches in the era of Allen and he told me knowing I was a Cowboys fan how they would give up on the gaps to either side of Allen. They felt it was a win against Larry if they could just occupy him.

It's time for lineman to get their due and I'm surprised as Cowboys fans with the recent result we have had in Minnesota the o-lineman aren't truly appreciated for what they can offer.

I played football up through major college ball and coach it for children.

You don't put your best players at OG or even close. Generally you pick the fattest kid and say just hold that area down.

If Larry Allen had played primarily LT I'd agree this choice is a landslide but he didn't so I think it moves to a very close call.

I don't think there are many fans of the early 90's Cowboys who would disagree with the impact Irvin had. In a lot of ways he held that team together. Both black and white players listened to him on a team that was divided by clique. First downs were important to him and his celebrations are copied even today.

At a time when we ran all of 5 or 6 plays on offense he consistent got us first downs even against Deion and Darrell Green. He was a dominant blocker and caught the ball at a ridiculously high rate.

But in the end Larry Allen was here when we were flat awful. He didn't set a good example for our OL at all. He worked out on his own, was quiet and generally NOT a leader of guys at all. He was respected, emulated; but not interested in taking on that leadership mantle.

When Irvin was gone but Larry was still here we sucked. We didn't trade 2 first round picks for an OG like we did for Joey Galloway or even the ransom we gave up for RW11. This team signed Bigg in FA and again had a top 5 OG. We never went on a search that caused us to sign TO or trade away our best draft assets for an OG. You are arguing your take but ignoring the reality of the NFL.

If you coached high school football in Texas you would definitely take a top flight WR over an OG.

 

[CoCo]

...the clarity really didn't come with age, it came with more time spent on another part of the field - the sidelines and having to deal with the issues from that vantage point. Years only played a part in the fact that I needed those years to put in the time as a coach and learn the game form a different aspect.

Second to say that Allen "played beyond draft expectations." would make any Cowboys fan spit in their beer.

It was well beyond what Irvin accomplished in his career and well beyond what any GM could ever hope for.

In the second round out of Sonoma State you draft arguably the greatest guard to ever play? I think you are understating Allen's accomplishment.

If you think my nod to Irvin understates Allen's contributions, so be it.

But when I stated Allen "played beyond draft expectations" it was only acknowledging both he and Irvin did. That is why it was precluded by similarly. It wasn't as if that statement was meant to sum up either of their careers. But I think that was reasonably clear if you take the entire post in context.

 

[jterrell]

When Irvin was drafted they expected him to be the player he was.

(Thread title.)

Sorry but now you are just making silly comments.
you have had some great points but this one falls entirely flat.

Irvin wasn't picked top 3. You don't expect mid first round picks to be Hall of Famers. And since Jimmy wasn't even here yet he was certainly not expected to be the de facto coach on the field.

Allen was unknown to the random fan but when you draft OG's in r2 they are expected to be pretty darn good. It's not like teams load up on OG's high in drafts.

 

[KJJ]

But for draft picks you don't make WRs #1 overall.

Two WR's have gone #1 overall Keyshawn Johnson and Irving Fryer. The greatest player of all time by many is a WR. Akiman took his worst beatings without Irvin in the lineup. Aikman got thrown around like a rag doll after Irvin was lost with a knee injury in 89. Troy's career ended with a concussion one year after Irvin retired. He had no one to throw to and started hanging on to the ball. Larry Allen alone didn't help prolong Troy's career. Look at the Cowboys records during Allen's prime and compare them to when Irvin was in his prime. Troy started taking almost the same kind of beatings his last couple of years that he did his first couple of years. By 98 the Cowboys were an awful team picking in the top 10 and Allen was 26 years old at the peak of his career. Everything started coming unglued for the Cowboys when Irvin started having off the field problems and when he was forced to retire due to injury.

What would Novachek's stats be like.

Without Irvin Novachek might not have been as affective and the same goes for Alvin Harper. Like I said and the stats prove it Aikman was playing at a very high level BEFORE Allen arrived. Allen wasn't around in 92 when Troy was tossing 4 TD passes in the SB earning game MVP honors. Emmitt was still running wild before Allen was drafted. It could be argued that Moose Johnston opened as many holes for Emmitt if not more than Larry Allen. Allen was a tremendous player but he didn't impact the team like a HOF receiver did. Aikman, Emmitt and Irvin were more valuable to the Cowboys than Larry Allen. Charles Haley was more valuable to the Cowboys than Larry Allen because the position he played impacted the game more than Allen's position. The Cowboys went to the next level when Haley arrived because he was a pass rusher. To have an affective OL you can't have any weak links. One great O-lineman isn't going to get it done there has to be some cohesiveness upfront. Although Allen was dominate in the late 90's we didn't have that cohesiveness. Erik Williams wasn't the same player and others on the OL were declining.

An unharassed Aikman would have made all the receivers look better as they would have had more time to get uncovered and find the soft zones of a pass defence. And I haven't even begun to explore the plays and traps that Larry could perform for Emmitt.

Aikman did just fine in 92 and 93 without Allen did he not? Emmitt was finding holes long before Allen arrived. As I recall the Cowboys won back to back SB's WITHOUT Larry Allen. The Cowboys had their best years without Allen. During Allen's prime the Cowboys had some of their worst years because their skill positions were declining as well as other members of the OL. Had Aikman had Irvin in 2000 his career might not have ended by being thrown to the turf having to hang on to the ball looking for a receiver to get open.

 

[MapleLeaf]

I played football up through major college ball and coach it for children.

You don't put your best players at OG or even close. Generally you pick the fattest kid and say just hold that area down.


If you coached high school football in Texas you would definitely take a top flight WR over an OG.

...then you may have run into the same problems I have learned in my years.

1. Physical competency at the high school level and even some colleges is low for the skilled positions.

2. Everyone thinks the fat kid is a lineman.

3. In schools and minor football there are leagues and zones that you can draw your players from. Skilled players are limited.

That's why pass plays are few and far between in the younger age groups and pass protection is a pipe dream. Much of that football is predicated on misdirection and gaining the edge.

This shouldn't and doesn't apply in my opinion for the NFL. A lot of extremely talented players who were considered the best in their region/school division never make it to the NFL.

In my experience at the lower age groups the majority of the time good running teams win the championships. Teams that focus on solid lines and placing kids who are not only big, but have good mobility and can do much more than just occupy space have effective run offences. They can even place their blockers to gaps to create much more than just seams.

Texas in your opinion may pick the best WR in the area, but I would bet 9 out of 10 they will pick a good solid line with a solid QB over a top flight WR anyday.

If they have wind and adverse weather conditions like we have up here in the middle of Canada and solid line is much more reliable on a greater percentage of plays over a greater part of the season than any singular WR.

 

[KJJ]

...Larry Allen great.

Take any GM in the league and if you told him you could have (5) Larry Allen's on your line in terms of talent hew would tell you he had a chance at winning the SuperBowl every year.

Even a troubled QB like Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, Brady Quinn with some serviceable receivers could do some real damage against any team in the league right now.

With (5) Larry Allen's there would have been no Jared Allen or Ray Edwards to worry about this past playoffs.

I think what you are missing in understanding here is the progression of the football at the start of an offensive play and the overall ability Allen presented that was so unique and different from lineman before him.

There were many receivers who were much greater than Irvin and would have been able to contribute just as much to the team of the 90's.

Larry Allen was in a league of his own at his peak. Possibly the best there ever was.

If you compile a list of the 100 greatest players in the history of the NFL it's going to be a long way down that list before you see any offensive lineman. That list is going to be topped by QB's, WR's, RB's and DE/OLB because those positions impact games more than any other position. Any GM in the league is going to take a Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor over a Larry Allen or Anthony Munoz.

Even a troubled QB like Alex Smith, Matt Leinart, Brady Quinn with some serviceable receivers could do some real damage against any team in the league right now.

Because even a serviceable WR can bail a QB out even if their OL sucks. Look at the Cowboys the first few games of last season before Miles Austin emerged. His emergence is what helped get the team rolling after a sluggish start.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Sorry but now you are just making silly comments.
you have had some great points but this one falls entirely flat.

Irvin wasn't picked top 3. You don't expect mid first round picks to be Hall of Famers. And since Jimmy wasn't even here yet he was certainly not expected to be the de facto coach on the field.

Allen was unknown to the random fan but when you draft OG's in r2 they are expected to be pretty darn good. It's not like teams load up on OG's high in drafts.

Let's see...

1. Irvin was picked 11th overall from "The U." Allen was picked 46th overall. He was picked as an OG and he played at (4) positions along the line. Earning pro bowl honours during the years he played at those positions. Irvin suffered through some early years with injury and poor talent. If there was one thing in Irvin's favour it was that the new coach was his old coach and there was definitely trust there. Trust enough to consult him on players from the Landry regime and trust and intimate knowledge of his abilities to support his starting role. Trust Irvin earned on his own also.

2. Allen came from Sonoma State. From this website link I found, near as I can tell, there May have been up to (11) players to come from Sonoma to play pro ball and only (3) made NFL squads. Some others tried out, but sounded like camp bodies. Sonoma State is not Miami.

http://www.palley.com/cossacks/

You can argue all you want,but the type of competition that Irvin's college career was played at along with the program he was entered in and the draft placement he was given by the Cowboys is a much greater surety than being drafted in the 2nd round as an OG from Sonoma State.

To go back to the original thread which I refuted this argument I would argue that Allen's draft status was no way any indication of what he would accomplish as a lineman at (4) positions in comparison to Irvin's singular position.

If it were to come down to facts I wouldn't bet my child's life on Allen becoming the player he was if I was there at the draft as opposed to placing my bet on Irvin - if those were the two choices I had to make.

I'm sorry, but there are expectations coming out from the "U" and being #11 overall. Much more than what I would expect from Allen.

Thinking otherwise would be silly in my opinion.

Wiki's bit on Allen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Allen

Last, but not least Allen being a vocal leader and a coach on the field. No one is drafted for that. It's great when it shows up, but it's not the final determinant. If I were a GM I would stick to physical ability and being consistent on the field.

Other people are hired to take care of the coaching and leaders can be found, maybe not in the Irvin style, but there have been lot's of good vocal leaders. Ray Lewis, John Randle and Ronnie Lott to name a few, but there hasn't been too many Larry Allens.

 

[KJJ]

When Irvin was drafted they expected him to be the player he was.

No team drafts a player expecting them to become a HOF player.

 

[MapleLeaf]

If you compile a list of the 100 greatest players in the history of the NFL it's going to be a long way down that list before you see any offensive lineman. That list is going to be topped by QB's, WR's, RB's and DE/OLB because those positions impact games more than any other position. Any GM in the league is going to take a Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor over a Larry Allen or Anthony Munoz.

But they won't take every WR before those guys. I can guarantee you that Allen, Upshaw, Shell, Hannah and Webster and Munoz would be selected before Irvin.

Because even a serviceable WR can bail a QB out even if their OL sucks. Look at the Cowboys the first few games of last season before Miles Austin emerged. His emergence is what helped get the team rolling after a sluggish start.

I think you are taking this out of context. I stated that having (5) Larry Allens would allow you to beats teams with the players I mentioned. (5) Larry Allens in their prime on last year's line would have made our entire team win the Superbowl.

I don' think you realize there was a periods of time that Allen had not allowed a sack at all. It wouldn't be unconceivable to imagine that a line like that may have a chance at (0) sacks for a whole season.

Imagine Romo with no pressure at all. I think Roy and Crayton would have been fine at WR, not to mention how much fun Barber, Jones, Choice and Witten would have.

Here is a line from Jay Glazer's article in 2002.

"Over the next 19 regular-season games, he humiliated right defensive ends at the left tackle slot. In fact, there was a four-game stretch in which he faced four of the league's top pass rushers. Total sacks he allowed: zippo. Big fat 0."

This was when he was Left Tackle protecting the blind side!

Here's the article link again.

http://www.cbssports.com/b/page/pressbox/0,1328,5646870,00.html

 

[MapleLeaf]

No team drafts a player expecting them to become a HOF player.

...and I made an error stating it in those terms.

What I should have stated was having a Pro Bowl Hall of Fame worthy career was a better bet with Irvin than Allen.

What Allen did out of his spot (#46) was not just only knock one out of the park, but in combination with his draft spot, his school and his on field exploits we may never see another player like him again.

 

[KJJ]

What I should have stated was having a Pro Bowl Hall of Fame worthy career was a better bet with Irvin than Allen.

If you go through the list of hall of famers most of them were drafted AFTER the first round. :toast: Allen was the 46th pick so it wasn't like he was fighting long odds to becoming a great player. Irvin arrived when the Cowboys were at their lowest point in franchise history. They were the worst team in football during Irvins first two seasons and he suffered an ACL injury during that period. The Cowboys were coming off of back to back SB wins when Allen arrived. Allen had a tough go his rookie season being completely manhandled by Reggie White on Thanksgiving. White took advantage of his poor technique by getting under his pads and tossing him to the ground several times. It took a couple of seasons before Allen became a dominant player.

 

[MapleLeaf]

It took a couple of seasons before Allen became a dominant player.

...10 games in 1994 and ending the season with a severely sprained ankle, 1995 saw Larry Allen start at Right Guard and the first of his seven consecutive pro bowls.

In his rookie season (1994) while starting (10) games he recorded (2) games with no sacks allowed.

In a game against the Packers in the 94 playoffs he injured his ankle and came back into the game to receive game ball honours. The game featured Emmitt Smith on the bench nursing an injury and (3) receivers catching over 100 yards while Aikman compiled 337 passing yards.

I think he began his dominance in the rookie season already. The Reggie White move was much played by the media, but was done against an inexperienced in a brain fart moment player. White never got another chance against Allen. Even going sackless against him in the 94 playoffs when Allen was a fixture at LT due to Erik Williams car crash.

It's safe to say that in the rematch of his rookie year Allen punked White to the tune of 300 plus yards for Aikman while Smith was on the bench and there was no real threat of a running game.

Knowing the Cowboys were going to pass and put the game on Aikman's shoulders White never got a sniff at Aikman.

 

[KJJ]

...10 games in 1994 and ending the season with a severely sprained ankle, 1995 saw Larry Allen start at Right Guard and the first of his seven consecutive pro bowls.

In his rookie season (1994) while starting (10) games he recorded (2) games with no sacks allowed.

In a game against the Packers in the 94 playoffs he injured his ankle and came back into the game to receive game ball honours. The game featured Emmitt Smith on the bench nursing an injury and (3) receivers catching over 100 yards while Aikman compiled 337 passing yards.

I think he began his dominance in the rookie season already. The Reggie White move was much played by the media, but was done against an inexperienced in a brain fart moment player. White never got another chance against Allen. Even going sackless against him when Allen was a fixture at LT due to Erik Williams car crash.

You never answered my question if you knew what you know now and could only choose ONE to start your team off with who would you choose Allen or Irvin?

 

[KJJ]

...10 games in 1994 and ending the season with a severely sprained ankle, 1995 saw Larry Allen start at Right Guard and the first of his seven consecutive pro bowls.

How many offensive linemen have been named SB MVP? Answer...ZIP! But there's been several WR's named SB MVP. You're not going to win crap unless you have great players at the skill positions.