Elite QB + No Team or Elite Team + No QB

[Miller]

the point is that it's all been on his shoulders and he must take chances--but he's a better QB than some in the HOF who were merely on great teams

I agree that we force him to throw too much. He needs to throw anywhere from 25-35 times a game..Not 45-50. In those more limited throws he also needs to protect it better. But I disagree that he is better than HOF'ers. It's all time and place. Aikman doesn't have near Romo numbers but when it came playoff time he was one of the most accurate QBs in NFL history and he made the throws, didn't make mistakes and beat coverage in an era where players were allowed to maul WRs. People knew who he was going to and he still made the throw.

Terry Bradshaw was a top pick. He had a rifle of an arm and he set records..at the time..for yards, TDs, etc in the playoffs. He was 2 time SB MVP and a league MVP. Saying he wasn't good and it was his team is a farce. He played during a heyday in the league when teams were stacked.

I always tell people, you can have 4 all pro WRs and a great O-line but maybe 1 in 25 guys can make the right throw when bodies are moving and there is coverage.

I think the OP's question is too general. There are no QBs on lousy teams that take them anywhere. Elway may have been the closest. It is more great QBs on mediocre/good teams that can maybe get them a little farther. I'd rather have this situation in this day and age than a great team and a soso QB because all of that greatness can go out the window when soso QB makes his one mistake again. A decent team with a QB that is hot can make runs and catch lightning in a bottle

 

[Shango]

I think the OP's question is too general. There are no QBs on lousy teams that take them anywhere. Elway may have been the closest. It is more great QBs on mediocre/good teams that can maybe get them a little farther. I'd rather have this situation in this day and age than a great team and a soso QB because all of that greatness can go out the window when soso QB makes his one mistake again. A decent team with a QB that is hot can make runs and catch lightning in a bottle

Not general...I worded it in extremes because everyone has different opinions of what is an Elite QB or what a horrible team is. I didn't want it to degenerate into a Romo post (did anyway) simply because I didn't call him "elite". A LOT of people think he is and I wanted to involve them more than anything. Most people who believe he is not elite will side with the "great team" option anyway.

I have been fortunate to watch A LOT of quarterbacks in my life and I saw why some of the greats were great.

Bradshaw was a winner...his arm was strong but bad. That's why Lynn Swann was always diving for the ball. But he would make clutch plays constantly. I hated him.

Montana...geez He had a noodle arm but was a surgeon kinda like Brees. But his field vision was absolutely insane.

Aikman - was an anal perfectionist. An on the field general. No question who was in charge. Perfect QB for that team.

Fouts - God i loved him...I think he was better than Marino

Marino - Was meh to me. Never seemed like a team player. would yell at his WRs too much...was scared to stay in the pocket and winning didn't seem like his focus. Never liked that guy.

Jim Kelly - Romo is closest to him I think but 4 SB appearances as a direct result of his arm...kinda puts a lot of space there for Romo to close.

John Elway - Again, not a Fav. He was NOT going to win if if was not for Denver's commitment to the Running game and Terrrell Davis. But he was a multilple SB winner, so he did the right things as a bus driver...like Aikman.

Warren Moon - threw the prettiest ball ever. Hard to judge him fully because he was dealing with a LOT of racial stuff back them...could have been much better IMO

Steve Young - he would have been better than Montana if it wasn't for that GREAT DALLAS COWBOYS machine. Young was fabulous. Games slowed down for him as he got older.

Sooooo...

I don't think Romo is BETTER than any of the ones I saw...before me they rarely threw the football...lol

 

[Red Dragon]

Let's put it this way: 10 great players are better able to overcome the shortcomings of one lousy player than one great player is to overcome the shortcomings of 10 lousy players.

 

[DFWJC]

.
Jim Kelly - Romo is closest to him I think but 4 SB appearances as a direct result of his arm...kinda puts a lot of space there for Romo to close.

My comment here is unrelated to Romo, but you really have to be delusional to think Kelly was not surrounded by an incredible football team.
Those teams had multiple Hall of Fame players and depth too.

 

[Shango]

Let's put it this way: 10 great players are better able to overcome the shortcomings of one lousy player than one great player is to overcome the shortcomings of 10 lousy players.

Someone used a basketball reference earlier and I instantly thought of Ron Harper. Harper had all the ability in the world but was missing some intangibles and didn't have a "great" team around him. Put up HUGE numbers with the Cavs and Clippers. But, when he got to Chicago and could just play his role, then he became one of the most valuable pieces in the Bulls runs...but, he scored a LOT less and impacted the game a LOT more.

Tony is at the stats part now...tons of yardage but it's mainly from trying to bring the team back late in games. If we could get a run oriented coach and have a full commitment to the run...then Tony can be an excellent bus driver.

But that takes time.

Tony is our only hope right now. He is put in more high pressure situations than anyone in the league and that's his weakness.

 

[Doomsday101]

Not general...I worded it in extremes because everyone has different opinions of what is an Elite QB or what a horrible team is. I didn't want it to degenerate into a Romo post (did anyway) simply because I didn't call him "elite". A LOT of people think he is and I wanted to involve them more than anything. Most people who believe he is not elite will side with the "great team" option anyway.

I have been fortunate to watch A LOT of quarterbacks in my life and I saw why some of the greats were great.

Bradshaw was a winner...his arm was strong but bad. That's why Lynn Swann was always diving for the ball. But he would make clutch plays constantly. I hated him.

Montana...geez He had a noodle arm but was a surgeon kinda like Brees. But his field vision was absolutely insane.

Aikman - was an anal perfectionist. An on the field general. No question who was in charge. Perfect QB for that team.

Fouts - God i loved him...I think he was better than Marino

Marino - Was meh to me. Never seemed like a team player. would yell at his WRs too much...was scared to stay in the pocket and winning didn't seem like his focus. Never liked that guy.

Jim Kelly - Romo is closest to him I think but 4 SB appearances as a direct result of his arm...kinda puts a lot of space there for Romo to close.

John Elway - Again, not a Fav. He was NOT going to win if if was not for Denver's commitment to the Running game and Terrrell Davis. But he was a multilple SB winner, so he did the right things as a bus driver...like Aikman.

Warren Moon - threw the prettiest ball ever. Hard to judge him fully because he was dealing with a LOT of racial stuff back them...could have been much better IMO

Steve Young - he would have been better than Montana if it wasn't for that GREAT DALLAS COWBOYS machine. Young was fabulous. Games slowed down for him as he got older.

Sooooo...

I don't think Romo is BETTER than any of the ones I saw...before me they rarely threw the football...lol

Looking at the list and all the HOF players that were on those teams both offense and defense played a big part. Hell Bradshaw played with 7 HOF players a defense call the Steel Curtain.

Terry was a very good QB and the Steelers where an awsome team.

You could do the same thing with the list of HOF players with the 9er both offense and defense

Same with Aikman

Right now how many HOF players are around Romo?

 

[Shango]

My comment here is unrelated to Romo, but you really have to be delusional to think Kelly was not surrounded by an incredible football team.
Those teams had multiple Hall of Fame players and depth too.

Wow...I don't know how you took that from those words.

Almost all teams in the Super Bowl surrounded their QB with impressive talent. Was the reason for my post. Why would I turn around and say that Jim Kelly was doing it all by himself???

His nickname was Machine Gun Kelly and that offense ran totally through his arm. He had a great WR and a great catching RB. Lil' spotty on defense with studs but they had enough.

Would have won 4 in a row if it wasn't for the NFC east.

 

[Shango]

Looking at the list and all the HOF players that were on those teams both offense and defense played a big part. Hell Bradshaw played with 7 HOF players a defense call the Steel Curtain.

Terry was a very good QB and the Steelers where an awsome team.

You could do the same thing with the list of HOF players with the 9er both offense and defense

Same with Aikman

Right now how many HOF players are around Romo?

Ware and Witten...

 

[Miller]

Not general...I worded it in extremes because everyone has different opinions of what is an Elite QB or what a horrible team is. I didn't want it to degenerate into a Romo post (did anyway) simply because I didn't call him "elite". A LOT of people think he is and I wanted to involve them more than anything. Most people who believe he is not elite will side with the "great team" option anyway.

I have been fortunate to watch A LOT of quarterbacks in my life and I saw why some of the greats were great.

Bradshaw was a winner...his arm was strong but bad. That's why Lynn Swann was always diving for the ball. But he would make clutch plays constantly. I hated him.

Montana...geez He had a noodle arm but was a surgeon kinda like Brees. But his field vision was absolutely insane.

Aikman - was an anal perfectionist. An on the field general. No question who was in charge. Perfect QB for that team.

Fouts - God i loved him...I think he was better than Marino

Marino - Was meh to me. Never seemed like a team player. would yell at his WRs too much...was scared to stay in the pocket and winning didn't seem like his focus. Never liked that guy.

Jim Kelly - Romo is closest to him I think but 4 SB appearances as a direct result of his arm...kinda puts a lot of space there for Romo to close.

John Elway - Again, not a Fav. He was NOT going to win if if was not for Denver's commitment to the Running game and Terrrell Davis. But he was a multilple SB winner, so he did the right things as a bus driver...like Aikman.

Warren Moon - threw the prettiest ball ever. Hard to judge him fully because he was dealing with a LOT of racial stuff back them...could have been much better IMO

Steve Young - he would have been better than Montana if it wasn't for that GREAT DALLAS COWBOYS machine. Young was fabulous. Games slowed down for him as he got older.

Sooooo...

I don't think Romo is BETTER than any of the ones I saw...before me they rarely threw the football...lol

I wasn't knocking your poll or your question. I just was prefacing my answer that I don't think one great guy can lead an a lousy team..on the extreme end. I do think a great QB can lead an average to good team with some holes however.

As for all your QBs...grew up watching all of them too..from mid 70s. Don't agree with all of the comments but pretty close. I wasn't sure if you were giving Elway credit pre-run game or not since he took bad teams there. My answer to Romo being better was to the poster I responded to that said Romo was better than some in the HOF.

 

[Miller]

Looking at the list and all the HOF players that were on those teams both offense and defense played a big part. Hell Bradshaw played with 7 HOF players a defense call the Steel Curtain.

Terry was a very good QB and the Steelers where an awsome team.

You could do the same thing with the list of HOF players with the 9er both offense and defense

Same with Aikman

Right now how many HOF players are around Romo?

Not many but look at the Patriots and other teams. How mahy HOFers do they have? Not many either. The league is watered down and the best teams are the ones where they know how to consistently cover their holes and who have great QBs.

 

[Super_Kazuya]

Not many but look at the Patriots and other teams. How mahy HOFers do they have? Not many either. The league is watered down and the best teams are the ones where they know how to consistently cover their holes and who have great QBs.

The problem with saying you need a great quarterback to win is that it ignores the fact that greatness is only bestowed after you've done the winning. So of course it looks like every Super Bowl winner had a great QB when the winning QB is being granted that status whether they deserve it or not. Brees, Rodgers, Manning and Brady? Sure, no problem. Those guys have won and have also accomplished historic things that have nothing to do with how good their team is. But there ain't nothing historic about Flacco, Eli and Big Ben (though I will say, there is greatness in Big Ben, even though he doesn't always show it).

Just remember, if Rahim Moore could be trusted to bat down a ball, Flacco wouldn't be a great QB (and I suspect many of you would be a lot happier with Romo's contract as well).

 

[JackWagon]

i dont trust JJ to draft worth a crap ... see 2009 draft ... 0 for 12 ...

 

[Miller]

The problem with saying you need a great quarterback to win is that it ignores the fact that greatness is only bestowed after you've done the winning. So of course it looks like every Super Bowl winner had a great QB when the winning QB is being granted that status whether they deserve it or not. Brees, Rodgers, Manning and Brady? Sure, no problem. Those guys have won and have also accomplished historic things that have nothing to do with how good their team is. But there ain't nothing historic about Flacco, Eli and Big Ben (though I will say, there is greatness in Big Ben, even though he doesn't always show it).

Just remember, if Rahim Moore could be trusted to bat down a ball, Flacco wouldn't be a great QB (and I suspect many of you would be a lot happier with Romo's contract as well).

I pretty much agree with you here but all great/top QBs had to prove themselves at one point and Flacco's playoff run was pretty much the #1 or close to #1 reason they made a run. Will he continue? Who knows. Again, you are right, you have to make yourself great. Brady wasn't a stud until he was thrust into the limelight and won a SB. After that we saw what he was. I'm not even sure if Flacco qualifies....just stating that in the history of the league, average QBs leading teams to victory are the outlier, not the norm. I think Eli is behind Big Ben, but Ben has made great plays to win games behind horrid lines, while banged up and with no running game at times...not all the time. I givbe him a lot of credit for that.

 

[Red Dragon]

After a QB wins a Super Bowl, it's like all of his poor play right up until that moment is forgotten or suddenly cast in a more glowing light.

Before a QB wins a Super Bowl, it's like all of his great play doesn't matter or isn't noticed up until that point.


Remarkable how hindsight works. I think some of the people who had called Joe Flacco a loser, etc. for years in a row, are suddenly now saying, "I told you so - Flacco is elite, I knew he would win a Super Bowl, I always did!"

 

[Doomsday101]

Not many but look at the Patriots and other teams. How mahy HOFers do they have? Not many either. The league is watered down and the best teams are the ones where they know how to consistently cover their holes and who have great QBs.

BS Flacco is not a great QB, he is a good QB. Hell Raven fans have been hollering about him like you guys do with Romo. He is not great he plays on a qaulity football team. When did the Pats win their last SB? No doubt they are a well coached, solid fundamentals and they don't beat themselfs and have won with some guys who are HOF type players and have gone with less than at times.

Hell Eli is not great, he is a good QB great QB's do not have poor season and Elie has had more poor season than great ones add to that a damn fine defense who can shut down opposing teams, their last SB win came aginst one of the highest scoring teams avg 32 points a game and yet held them to 17 points and the SB between those 2 in 2007 NE set a record on points scored avg 34 points and NY shut them down to 14 points. Eli sure as hell did not have anything to do with how NY Defense dominated. QB mean a lot but no one is winning just because of the QB, it take a team. Water down or not

 

[ufcrules1]

BS Flacco is not a great QB, he is a good QB. Hell Raven fans have been hollering about him like you guys do with Romo. He is not great he plays on a qaulity football team. When did the Pats win their last SB? No doubt they are a well coached, solid fundamentals and they don't beat themselfs and have won with some guys who are HOF type players and have gone with less than at times.

Hell Eli is not great, he is a good QB great QB's do not have poor season and Elie has had more poor season than great ones add to that a damn fine defense who can shut down opposing teams, their last SB win came aginst one of the highest scoring teams avg 32 points a game and yet held them to 17 points and the SB between those 2 in 2007 NE set a record on points scored avg 34 points and NY shut them down to 14 points. Eli sure as hell did not have anything to do with how NY Defense dominated. QB mean a lot but no one is winning just because of the QB, it take a team. Water down or not

Flacco is very underrated and I consider him a great QB he just isn't elite. Eli is very close to elite, he dang sure was elite during the playoffs and super bowl runs. Romo in my mind is good, but he is right there with Matty Ice, Cutler, Rivers, etc.

Put it this way, I don't think Flacco or Eli would have choked the same way Romo did against Washington with the division and playoffs on the line. They wouldn't have made it far in the playoffs but they would have won that game.

I assure you that your boy Eli will go down as a hall of fame QB and not because of his defense either. This is what Eli does with 3 minutes on the clock IN THE SUPERBOWL(Video below) We both know what Romo did with 3 minutes left with the division on the line.

 

[ufcrules1]

[youtube]9XSgZzHSts0[/youtube]

 

[Doomsday101]

Flacco is very underrated and I consider him a great QB he just isn't elite. Eli is very close to elite, he dang sure was elite during the playoffs and super bowl runs. Romo in my mind is good, but he is right there with Matty Ice, Cutler, Rivers, etc.

Put it this way, I don't think Flacco or Eli would have choked the same way Romo did against Washington with the division and playoffs on the line. They wouldn't have made it far in the playoffs but they would have won that game.

But they have so called choked in before in big games. So if Romo wins a SB then he is as good? Eli and Flacco are good QB they also happen to play on solid teams. As I mentioned NY Giants defense played a hugh role in beating Dallas, GB and NE they shut down a NE team that avg 34 fricken points a game and guess what Eli did not play a single down in defense.

Flacco teams went through some injuries they also started getting healthy and saw the return of guys like Lewis back in their lineup and played very well down the stretch. I take nothing from those QB but it was still an overall team effort not them alone. Hell Eli has had some very bad games in big games so has Flacco and many Raven fans were boo hooing about him as many of you do about Romo. Now he has a ring and he is great? :laugh2: One day you just may figure out this game involves a lot more than QB's alone and the winner is not about who has the best QB it is who has the best teams.

This last SB 49ers QB and Balt QB are not the best QB in the league not even close to Rodgers ability but they won because they play on a better overall team. It really is as simple as that but as long as some continue to view the QB based on SB alone then it becomes a waste of time trying to explain the game because you will never get it.

 

[Shango]

BS Flacco is not a great QB, he is a good QB. Hell Raven fans have been hollering about him like you guys do with Romo. He is not great he plays on a qaulity football team. When did the Pats win their last SB? No doubt they are a well coached, solid fundamentals and they don't beat themselfs and have won with some guys who are HOF type players and have gone with less than at times.

Hell Eli is not great, he is a good QB great QB's do not have poor season and Elie has had more poor season than great ones add to that a damn fine defense who can shut down opposing teams, their last SB win came aginst one of the highest scoring teams avg 32 points a game and yet held them to 17 points and the SB between those 2 in 2007 NE set a record on points scored avg 34 points and NY shut them down to 14 points. Eli sure as hell did not have anything to do with how NY Defense dominated. QB mean a lot but no one is winning just because of the QB, it take a team. Water down or not

I agree!

There is something special about Brady, Brees, Peyton and Arodg. You see the competitiveness. I mean, I've seen Brady almost demon like in games where he gets so angry(focused anger). But for them to play at a high level and carry their teams throughout the season and playoffs....that's a monumental task for them...as we can see. Brees, Arodge, and Peyton only have one a piece...Brady has more but not in the modern era...lol

My wife's friend's husband is best friends with Brady(3 degrees of separation ). He said Tom is very similar to Jordan to where he HAS to beat you in everything he does. Sick like that.

 

[5Stars]

Flacco teams went through some injuries they also started getting healthy and saw the return of guys like Lewis back in their lineup and played very well down the stretch. I take nothing from those QB but it was still an overall team effort not them alone. Hell Eli has had some very bad games in big games so has Flacco and many Raven fans were boo hooing about him as many of you do about Romo. Now he has a ring and he is great? :laugh2: One day you just may figure out this game involves a lot more than QB's alone and the winner is not about who has the best QB it is who has the best teams.

This last SB 49ers QB and Balt QB are not the best QB in the league not even close to Rodgers ability but they won because they play on a better overall team. It really is as simple as that but as long as some continue to view the QB based on SB alone then it becomes a waste of time trying to explain the game because you will never get it.

:laugh2: :laugh2:

Yeah, right! The dude is a one way street...and the only game he remembers is the Washington game.