Elite QB + No Team or Elite Team + No QB

[Super_Kazuya]

I guess winning means more to me than anything. I care about the bottom line, winning.

Letter perfect, dictionary definition of bandwagon fan.

 

[Shango]

I think we have a difference of opinion on what ELITE is. To me, elite is a QB with not only talent and smarts, but a player who is not bothered by the big stage. Someone who, no matter what's going on around him, he has that IT to pull a game out.

He's not bothered by what the defense is doing, or what the offensive line is doing, or any of those things, he simply finds a way. Those types of QBs don't grow on trees. Very few of them come around ever decade, and to me Tony is a notch below those types.

He can do everything in the world, but win pressure games. It's not in him. It's not what he's made of. His games in October are totally different from a late deciding game in December or the playoffs. Who cares what your stats are if you can't win important stuff?

What's important? Playoffs. Super Bowls. Anything else is bull crap. I don't care if Tony threw for 7500 yards and 63 touch downs with only 2 interceptions, if he makes it to the playoffs that year and lose, NO MATTER WHAT, he sucks IMO.

I guess winning means more to me than anything. I care about the bottom line, winning. And you cannot call someone ELITE if they freeze in big games.

You can't call someone elite who can NEVER win those do or die games. In 7 years, you should rack up at least a ton of playoff games. I've never heard that term team sport until Romo came along. Never heard it with Roger, or Aikman, or any other QB out there.

Romo fans = excuse makers.

No...I agree 100% I just used "Elite" because some think that which is their right. I wanted to give them merit. But me personally, I'm right there with you.

I still think we could win with him by becoming a better rushing team...more protection, and timely help on the defensive side of the ball. But for the most part, we are built for him to do everything which leads to more of those situations that you are referring to.

 

[blindzebra]

He squashes your argument with facts and then you retort with a personally attack? Classy.

His argument is void of facts.

It is emotional, hyperbolic drivel.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

Need an edit to add it made me agree with McCoy.

Haha, I love you too, man.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

I "think" you need to read it again. Before you agree with him...he's been trolling me for years now...spewing nonsense....and hate.

1. It's complete opinion whether we are on either end on that spectrum but it IS the fundamental difference between the fans that are trying to make some sense of this situation vs those that....um...just wanna argue about Romo.(McCoy) Either you believe you can do it with an elite QB or you think a complete team is the most important thing...that's the TRUE separation right now between knowledgable fans.

2. Didn't mention Romo's contract nor his skills set so this would not become another "Romo thread". Romo is not the question here at all...it's team structure.

3. There's my point again. "Yes, we have questions but it is very unlikely that we will have the injuries that hit us last year." Again, that is hope and opinion. The truth is that good "complete" teams are built to withstand injuries...for example...The Ravens. They were built so well that when they lost Ladarious Webb, Haloti Ngata, Ed Reed, Ray Lewis, and Terrell Suggs...they overcame. That is what we ultimately want. To wilt and say it was all because of the injures...is weak...even if it's true.

Can I ask you a serious question? If so, what do you think the outcome would be if Romo could have 5 years with a coach like Belichick?

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

He squashes your argument with facts and then you retort with a personally attack? Classy.

It wasn't a "personally" attack....

 

[Shango]

Can I ask you a serious question? If so, what do you think the outcome would be if Romo could have 5 years with a coach like Belichick?

5 years with Belichek Romo would have 5 playoff births and at least 2 SB's...at least. If you read past what you think you see...you'll see that I have said this SEVERAL times in this string. The main issue isn't Romo at all...it's what we are surrounding him with, as an organization as a whole. The organization has failed over and over with this guy in my opinion. He didn't get a chance to complete his development when Parcells was here because he was deemed a star in his second year under Wade. Shouldn't have done that. They stripped away his already bad line with a worse one. Shouldn't have done that. They never committed to a running philosophy and would rather Romo throw the ball 40-50 times a game like that is a winning formula.

This organization has failed Romo over and over and NOW, they have put him in a no win situation because if he doesn't have a MAJOR success in the next coming years he will be destroyed worse than Danny White within the Cowboys fan base.

He is far from a perfect QB but the Cowboys have screwed him over FAR more than he has screwed over the Cowboys IMO.

 

[Tabascocat]

5 years with Belichek Romo would have 5 playoff births and at least 2 SB's...at least. If you read past what you think you see...you'll see that I have said this SEVERAL times in this string. The main issue isn't Romo at all...it's what we are surrounding him with, as an organization as a whole. The organization has failed over and over with this guy in my opinion. He didn't get a chance to complete his development when Parcells was here because he was deemed a star in his second year under Wade. Shouldn't have done that. They stripped away his already bad line with a worse one. Shouldn't have done that. They never committed to a running philosophy and would rather Romo throw the ball 40-50 times a game like that is a winning formula.

This organization has failed Romo over and over and NOW, they have put him in a no win situation because if he doesn't have a MAJOR success in the next coming years he will be destroyed worse than Danny White within the Cowboys fan base.

He is far from a perfect QB but the Cowboys have screwed him over FAR more than he has screwed over the Cowboys IMO.

Well said. Romo is plenty good enough to take a team to the SB. I don't think there is a QB out there who could do better here in Dallas in the exact same circumstances. If we had Brady for the last 7 years, he would be the league whipping boy who chokes.

Romo needs help and if he is continually asked to carry the team on his shoulders, expect the same results for the next few years. Give the man an offensive line and things will change in a hurry IMO.

 

[Shango]

Well said. Romo is plenty good enough to take a team to the SB. I don't think there is a QB out there who could do better here in Dallas in the exact same circumstances. If we had Brady for the last 7 years, he would be the league whipping boy who chokes.

Romo needs help and if he is continually asked to carry the team on his shoulders, expect the same results for the next few years. Give the man an offensive line and things will change in a hurry IMO.

Every QB melts under pressure...Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc


All but Rodgers

Problem is...offensive line is probably the toughest unit to put together on a team

 

[TwoDeep3]

Give Romo the tools and he will build a championship season.

Continue down the path this team has chosen, and he won't.

And in either case, he will have help achieving the did or did not.

 

[dragon_mikal]

I think we have a difference of opinion on what ELITE is. To me, elite is a QB with not only talent and smarts, but a player who is not bothered by the big stage. Someone who, no matter what's going on around him, he has that IT to pull a game out.

He's not bothered by what the defense is doing, or what the offensive line is doing, or any of those things, he simply finds a way. Those types of QBs don't grow on trees. Very few of them come around ever decade, and to me Tony is a notch below those types.

He can do everything in the world, but win pressure games. It's not in him. It's not what he's made of. His games in October are totally different from a late deciding game in December or the playoffs. Who cares what your stats are if you can't win important stuff?

What's important? Playoffs. Super Bowls. Anything else is bull crap. I don't care if Tony threw for 7500 yards and 63 touch downs with only 2 interceptions, if he makes it to the playoffs that year and lose, NO MATTER WHAT, he sucks IMO.

I guess winning means more to me than anything. I care about the bottom line, winning. And you cannot call someone ELITE if they freeze in big games.

You can't call someone elite who can NEVER win those do or die games. In 7 years, you should rack up at least a ton of playoff games. I've never heard that term team sport until Romo came along. Never heard it with Roger, or Aikman, or any other QB out there.

Romo fans = excuse makers.

So if Tony Romo wins a few playoff games this year he'll suddenly be elite in your eyes.

Got it.

 

[HoosierCowboy]

I've said this before and it will do here again: Romo is like a very good pitcher on a bad team--in other sports we praise the great player on a loser and don't blame them for the team's poor record. QBs get too much praise for team success (Bradshaw) and too much blame for failure (Romo). To use another sport, Romo is like the basketball player who must score 50 points for his team to win--he might do it and they still lose or he might have an off night and miss 25 shots with 10 turnovers, but he has to take chances because it's the only chance his team has.

 

[Red Dragon]

The best quarterback in the league won't be of much use if he's getting constantly sacked, his receivers are constantly dropping passes, his running backs get no more than one yard per carry and his defense always gives the opposing team 30+ points a game.


Conversely, even a mediocre QB can probably win Super Bowls if given a powerful offensive line, running back who rushes for 120 yards per game, receivers who make catches even when double- or triple-covered, defense that limits opposing teams to 15 or less points per game, etc.

 

[Miller]

I've said this before and it will do here again: Romo is like a very good pitcher on a bad team--in other sports we praise the great player on a loser and don't blame them for the team's poor record. QBs get too much praise for team success (Bradshaw) and too much blame for failure (Romo). To use another sport, Romo is like the basketball player who must score 50 points for his team to win--he might do it and they still lose or he might have an off night and miss 25 shots with 10 turnovers, but he has to take chances because it's the only chance his team has.

I think this is a total cop out and excuse and I'm a big Romo supporter. The QB is the highest paid guy on a team for a reason. Mostly because they have the most control in games when on the field. There is a HOF for a reason. Great players make great plays no matter the team. Of course most SB teams are talented overall. That is why they win. But that doesn't discount what a QB has to do. Most SBs are won by top QBs for a reason. They make the plays. The Boys are 1-6 in elimination games and 1-3 in playoff games with Romo starting. Team or not that is his legacy right now. He has had plenty if talent. It's the same talent that makes people tout that he was 13-3 and 11-5. I said this yesterday... I really wish people stepped back from their extremes and were objective. The guy has put up great numbers but has failed in some big games. Fact. I was at the Minny playoff game and saw him run for his life. I knew then it wasn't all on him. BUT I also don't turn a blind eye to his issues...boneheaded plays that can turn games.

Conversely, even a mediocre QB can win Super Bowls with a good enough supporting cast. Look at Brad Johnson and the 2002 Buccaneers.

Total outlier. Go look at the history of SBs. The QB in 95% of them is one of the tops in the league.

 

[ufcrules1]

Romo is a good QB but he isn't a great one and certainly does not belong in the same sentence with players like Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Romo needs a coach who can pound in his head not to throw off his back foot, to take a sack when necessary, to throw the ball away when necessary, NOT to hike the ball with zero seconds on the clock, and biggest of all.. to tell him his most important job is to PROTECT the football!!!

If he would learn to do some of those things, he could be great or even elite. It would be nice if he could learn some of them on his own from watching a ton of tape of himself but that hasn't happened yet.

I agree with Shango though, at the end of the day the Cowboys have really failed Romo. He needs better coaching, and a better team around him. With that said, he needs to improve his game as well and anyone who denies that is a blind Romo lover.

To answer Shango's question, I would take an elite team with a good QB over an elite QB with a weak team around him. I think that is a no brainer to be honest. Look at SF, they had an elite team 2 years ago with an average QB and they almost went to the super bowl but their weak link was Smith and that was clear to see in the championship game. Then last year a few games in, they realized they had a very good QB in Kap and then switched them and went to the super bowl.

I just wish we would emulate a team like SF and start rebuilding like they did. SF is in a position to be very competitive for a long time and I'm very envious of that.

 

[Nation]

Can I ask what the problem is with hiking the ball at the last second?

 

[ufcrules1]

Can I ask what the problem is with hiking the ball at the last second?

Yes, the defense knows exactly when you are going to hike the ball and they get a jump on the offensive line. Makes the job of the Oline a lot harder. The Cowboys routinely hike the ball with just a few seconds on the clock if not let it run down to zero. That makes it easy for the defense because there are rarely surprises.

Go watch Peyton, you never know when the hell he is going to snap it. Same with Rodgers. They keep the defense guessing all the time.

 

[HoosierCowboy]

I think this is a total cop out and excuse and I'm a big Romo supporter. The QB is the highest paid guy on a team for a reason. Mostly because they have the most control in games when on the field. There is a HOF for a reason. Great players make great plays no matter the team. Of course most SB teams are talented overall. That is why they win. But that doesn't discount what a QB has to do. Most SBs are won by top QBs for a reason. They make the plays. The Boys are 1-6 in elimination games and 1-3 in playoff games with Romo starting. Team or not that is his legacy right now. He has had plenty if talent. It's the same talent that makes people tout that he was 13-3 and 11-5. I said this yesterday... I really wish people stepped back from their extremes and were objective. The guy has put up great numbers but has failed in some big games. Fact. I was at the Minny playoff game and saw him run for his life. I knew then it wasn't all on him. BUT I also don't turn a blind eye to his issues...boneheaded plays that can turn games.




Total outlier. Go look at the history of SBs. The QB in 95% of them is one of the tops in the league.

the point is that it's all been on his shoulders and he must take chances--but he's a better QB than some in the HOF who were merely on great teams

 

[Red Dragon]

Can I ask what the problem is with hiking the ball at the last second?

Because at that point, the defense knows full well when the ball needs to be snapped. They can time their jump better, and at least the offense loses the ability to catch the defense off-guard by snapping several seconds early.

 

[Red Dragon]

Total outlier. Go look at the history of SBs. The QB in 95% of them is one of the tops in the league.

Yes, but that's not what this thread is asking. Very few, if any, of those quarterbacks were surrounded by lots of lousy players during their Super Bowl-winning seasons.


This thread is asking which would be better, a great QB + lousy team or lousy QB + great team. And I think that in almost every instance, it is better to have the lousy QB but the great team surrounding him.