ESPN Mosley Chat Wrap - 05/12/09... lots of 'boys

[Idgit]

I am a Cowboy fan, but I would trade our receivers for the Giant's receivers in a second.

More high picks in their group. Not impressed with either set, frankly. Though I expect ours to be better than theirs this year.

 

[Doomsday]

He loses a ton of credibility with me saying the Giants have a better group of WRs then Dallas. Smith, Hixon and who knows what in a rookie are not better then a proven #1 in RW and a decent #2 in Crayton. Hixon and Smith are average at best, neither is nearly good enough to be a #1. They might have bigger upside with some of their young guys but that all it is upside.

 

[Monster Heel]

I am a Cowboy fan, but I would trade our receivers for the Giant's receivers in a second.

It's tempting because the upside is there. Nicks seems like he'll be really good, but after him I'm not terribly sold on the rest of crop. Hixon looks an awful lot like Miles Austin to me, could be a very dynamic secondary receiver, but I don't know if he's starter. Smith is a slot guy. Manningham is an enigma with apparent character issues. I don't like Barden at all, big guy who gets no separation at all and got hype because he abused small sub Division 1 corners.

With Dallas, Roy is somewhat proven. I compare Austin to Hixon, I think he's could probably a really good secondary WR. Crayton is seviceable. Now after those three, eh. Maybe Hurd made a leap this offseason, but I feel like his ceiling is low. No faith in Stanback. The rest of the crew seem like longshots.

The thing that separates the group is Roy to me. I just trust his ability to contribute RIGHT NOW more than Nicks.

 

[AdamJT13]

Too many big-time personnel guys have told me off-the-record that Jason Williams was a curious pick at No. 69. I can't find anyone who's in love with the kid -- except maybe the Cowboys.

Rick Gosselin and Bob McGinn both talked to plenty of actual NFL scouts in order to compile their rankings, and they both ranked Williams in the third round. One GM told McGinn that Williams was "the hot guy in this draft" and said he'd get taken in the third round.

Obviously, actual NFL scouts and GMs don't know as much as Mel Kiper and Todd McShay.

The Brewster kid's a great story, and I really think he's an amazing young man. But I'd be scared to death about his lack of strength.

Brewster did 23 reps at the Combine, which is as many as Eugene Monroe (drafted No. 8 overall); more than the 23rd overall pick, Michael Oher (21 reps); and more than the incomparable Max Unger (22 reps). Andre Smith, the sixth overall pick, didn't lift at the Combine, then did a whopping 19 reps at his pro day.

 

[tomson75]

Obviously, actual NFL scouts and GMs don't know as much as Mel Kiper and Todd McShay.

What an incredibly difficult concept to grasp.

/sarcasm

 

[adbutcher]

I don't know why I even bother. Mosley is the epitome of all that is wrong in sports journalism. He continues his crusade of providing misinformation to fans without any consequences.

 

[Bach]

Rick Gosselin and Bob McGinn both talked to plenty of actual NFL scouts in order to compile their rankings, and they both ranked Williams in the third round. One GM told McGinn that Williams was "the hot guy in this draft" and said he'd get taken in the third round.

Obviously, actual NFL scouts and GMs don't know as much as Mel Kiper and Todd McShay.

Mosley: "Too many big-time personnel guys have told me off-the-record that Jason Williams was a curious pick at No. 69."


So you're saying none of the "big time personnel guys" Mosley talked to were actual NFL scouts?

 

[Alexander]

I am a Cowboy fan, but I would trade our receivers for the Giant's receivers in a second.

Its a paper judgment. Manningham, Nicks and Barden haven't proven a thing. Conversely, Hurd, Austin and whomever else we march out there haven't either.

What matters when evaluating the two groups are those that can be quantified. Williams is better than Hixon/Smith, while I think Hixon and Smith are better than Crayton. That makes it pretty much a wash. Witten obviously is worlds better than Boss, but we are talking the receiver corps.

Overall, I would take the better WR overall group and New York has it.

Mosley is accurate here. There is more collective talent in that group than we can match. Nothing is "proven" but I would always go with the talent over those with limitations. Like it or not, our group has them, whether it be inexperience, lack of consistency or quite frankly, inferior skills.

 

[Alexander]

I don't know why I even bother. Mosley is the epitome of all that is wrong in sports journalism. He continues his crusade of providing misinformation to fans without any consequences.

Oh no, not the irresponsible journalist at work again! What "consequences" would you recommend? It is pretty easy to tell that pretty much every beat writer and journalist isn't an "expert" and it is up to the person reading the work to evaluate it accordingly.

He's no different than anyone else. Its just information (not misinformation)and he is not responsible for uneducated responses or overreaction to his writing. You either believe it or you don't. There's no code of ethics involved as it is opinion. He's got more connections than we do, and he's writing about them.

I don't quite get the bitterness. If he stated favorable things, nobody would be calling for "consequences".

The media does what they do. I don't understand getting excited about it.

 

[Alexander]

He loses a ton of credibility with me saying the Giants have a better group of WRs then Dallas. Smith, Hixon and who knows what in a rookie are not better then a proven #1 in RW and a decent #2 in Crayton. Hixon and Smith are average at best, neither is nearly good enough to be a #1. They might have bigger upside with some of their young guys but that all it is upside.

You are undervaluing Smith significantly. He's demonstrated an ability to get open and make plays, even as a third receiver which he was with Toomer on the roster. Hixon is what Austin could be once he shows he can stay on the field. Manningham, Hicks and Barden have a distinct and clear talent advantage over the remaider of our roster.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You are undervaluing Smith significantly. He's demonstrated an ability to get open and make plays, even as a third receiver which he was with Toomer on the roster. Hixon is what Austin could be once he shows he can stay on the field. Manningham, Hicks and Barden have a distinct and clear talent advantage over the remaider of our roster.

He demonstrated he can get open from the slot with two very good WR on the outside. Lets see how he doe snow when he is going to be game planned for much more often esp with a year worth of film to be broken down.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Its a paper judgment. Manningham, Nicks and Barden haven't proven a thing. Conversely, Hurd, Austin and whomever else we march out there haven't either.

What matters when evaluating the two groups are those that can be quantified. Williams is better than Hixon/Smith, while I think Hixon and Smith are better than Crayton. That makes it pretty much a wash. Witten obviously is worlds better than Boss, but we are talking the receiver corps.

Overall, I would take the better WR overall group and New York has it.

How does your last sentence jibe with your earlier ones?

Seems to me like the whole evaluation depends on Nicks. Everyone likes him, but tons and tons of WRs picked around where he was have been busts or simply average. Right now we have no idea that Nicks isn't another Rashaun Woods.

And even if he isn't, we all know how little NFL WRs contribute their rookie year.

 

[Woods]

The following are career totals for the players listed in Mosley's answer.

Domenik Hixon: 44 - 601 - 2 TD
Hakeem Nicks: rookie
Steve Smith: 65 - 637 - 1 TD
Ramses Barden: rookie
Mario Manningham: 4 - 26 - 0 TD

Giants totals: 113 - 1264 - 3 TD

Roy Williams: 281 - 4082 - 30 TD
Miles Austin: 18 - 354 - 3 TD
Sam Hurd: 24 - 389 - 1 TD
Patrick Crayton: 159 - 2266 - 18 TD

Cowboys totals: 482 - 7091 - 52 TD

The Cowboys receivers have done more to date than the Giants by a longshot. I love (or used to) Hakeem Nicks, but why should we expect New York to get signifigant contributions from him and another rookie, Ramses Barden?

Adjusting to life in the NFL at wideout is no easy feat.

Are our young receivers, Miles Austin and Sam Hurd, not better poised to help our team after 3 seasons of development? Mosley evidently doesn't even think enough of Isaiah Stanback to mention him in the conversation.

Stanback has been injured two years running, but there is still a mountain of upside there if he can just stay on the field. Is he not as likely to make an impact as the Giants' Barben, a third round small school receiver with size?

New York doesn't have anything approaching a known number one, we have Roy Williams. The Giants don't have near the talent we have at tight end and our backfield is superior as well with Derrick Ward taking his 1000 rushing yards to Tampa Bay in free agency.

Mosley thinks the Giants have superior talent at wideout.

Maybe they do, I don't know, but we have receivers who have proven more to date to go along with having a trio of pups who need to step up.

I think our group is better, especially for this coming season. We don't need a rookie wideout to come in and produce like a veteran, the Giants do.

Nice post.

Right now, I'd take our WRs over the Giants.

That said, the Giants may have better talent at that position in a couple years from now as Nicks develops.

But as of today, a healthy R Williams is better than any wideout currently on the Giants roster. I think that if M Austin stays healthy, he will be at least as effective as Hixon, but that's just my opinion. I'd rather have S Smith than Crayton, however. As for Hurd, this year he should be more effective than Barden, IMO.

But what clearly puts our passing game over the top in terms of skilled players is our group of TEs. Heck, going into this year with one season under his belt, I'd rather have M Bennett than Boss. And Witten is the best TE in football, and I haven't even figured him into the equation.

Finally, if Garrett figures out how to use F Jones in the passing game, he could easily catch 40-50 passes/year. F Jones could be more effective in the passing game than our 4th and 5th wideouts, if he's properly utilized.

 

[Alexander]

He demonstrated he can get open from the slot with two very good WR on the outside. Lets see how he doe snow when he is going to be game planned for much more often esp with a year worth of film to be broken down.

He will play the slot on third downs, so he won't be outside every down. And I think after two seasons, teams already have enough to game plan for him. He's a quality receiver and I would take him over any receiver we've got outside of Williams.

 

[JeffInDC]

Rick Gosselin and Bob McGinn both talked to plenty of actual NFL scouts in order to compile their rankings, and they both ranked Williams in the third round. One GM told McGinn that Williams was "the hot guy in this draft" and said he'd get taken in the third round.

Obviously, actual NFL scouts and GMs don't know as much as Mel Kiper and Todd McShay.




Brewster did 23 reps at the Combine, which is as many as Eugene Monroe (drafted No. 8 overall); more than the 23rd overall pick, Michael Oher (21 reps); and more than the incomparable Max Unger (22 reps). Andre Smith, the sixth overall pick, didn't lift at the Combine, then did a whopping 19 reps at his pro day.

Stop making sense Adam. It's a concept that seems to have left the brains of many. I mean, why would anybody trust Brandt's opinions over the Kiper, McShay, etc.... of the world. I mean all Brandt did was help construct some of the greatest teams in NFL history and draft Hall of Famers like Randy White and Tony Dorsett (just to name a few). I mean, really, what does he know that Kiper and McShay don't?

 

[AdamJT13]

So you're saying none of the "big time personnel guys" Mosley talked to were actual NFL scouts?

When did I ever say that?

 

[Doomsday]

You are undervaluing Smith significantly. He's demonstrated an ability to get open and make plays, even as a third receiver which he was with Toomer on the roster. Hixon is what Austin could be once he shows he can stay on the field. Manningham, Hicks and Barden have a distinct and clear talent advantage over the remaider of our roster.

My point is those guys are still rookies or second year guys, who havent done much if anything in the NFL. It usually takes a few years for WRs to adjust to life in the NFL an advantage Miles and Crayton both have over those guys.

Smith and Hixon both showed last season when Burress was down they couldnt be the main guys, they are both nice players but both are #2s at best. Jenkins and Scandrick dominated both of them in our second match up with Burress gone and the Giants slid from 28 ppg to 18 ppg without Burress.

IMO when you make a statement about who has the best WRs you have to weigh it towards the starters. Roy Williams is clearly heads and shoulders above anything NY has, he is a true #1, something they sorely lack. Even if you give Hixon and Smith the nod over Miles and Crayton you still have cant say they have better WRs then us. Manningham etc.. are all pie in the sky til they actually get on the field and make some plays in my opinion.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I couldn't care less what Mosely, or any other blogger or 'draft guide' expert thinks about drafts. They're paid to write something and they're giving opinions based entirely on who they know by name.

I'd put money on it that Mosely, and most the dudes like him, don't know anyone whose drafted beyond the first 2 rounds and did absolutely no study of any of those guys film or anything. Once they get out of the second round, probably the middle of the second round actually, that will be the end of the guys Mosely has ever even heard of or watched play.

If I was going to put any credibility behind any draft people, and what they think, about players and drafts it would be Mayock because that dude does his homework, doesn't shy away from giving you the negatives and the positives on a player.

Beyond him there aren't many I'd give too much credit to outside of coaches and scouts.

 

[jzcowboy]

Don't forget Martellus, but yeah I agree with you.

How can anybody forget MarbyBTV?? Ay bay bay!!

 

[Bach]

When did I ever say that?

It was a question to you based on what you said previously:

Rick Gosselin and Bob McGinn both talked to plenty of actual NFL scouts in order to compile their rankings, and they both ranked Williams in the third round.

I took it to imply that Gosselin and McGinn talk to actual scouts, as if, none of these other writers/draft experts such as Moseley, Kiper or McShay do.

So do you think these other guys talk to actual scouts?