Federal Search Warrant Executed on Vick House

[superpunk]

Hey, how 'bout that Boobie Gibson? Eh?.....Eh?

Eh?

 

[5Stars]

Well, I have not followed this very closely, so, did they or did they not find dead dogs on the property?

There are articles on this thread that says "yes", then Tryst comes and says it was "all taken back, no dogs were found"?

So, what is it?

 

[dwmyers]

Well, I have not followed this very closely, so, did they or did they not find dead dogs on the property?

There are articles on this thread that says "yes", then Tryst comes and says it was "all taken back, no dogs were found"?

So, what is it?

Every report of dead dogs found goes back to a report from ESPN radio that has been confirmed by no other source.

The other perspective on this is from a WAVY.COM article that Vintage has posted and the pertinent piece from it is as follows:

As it flew over the Vick property yesterday, Chopper 10 showed a state police truck with the words 'evidence collection'. But what evidence the feds collected is sealed and even Gerald Poindexter does not know.

I suspect this last is accurate.

David.

 

[WoodysGirl]

POSTED 6:22 a.m. EDT, June 9, 2007

WVEC DROPS CLAIM THAT 30-PLUS DOG CARCASSES WERE FOUND

Several readers have pointed out to us that WVEC-TV has dropped without explanation from its web site a statement that ESPN Radio has reported that nearly three dozen dead dogs were found on the property owned by Mike Vick in Surry County, Virginia.

Attention, WVEC: You can't just make a claim like that, drop it, and make no mention as to why you've done so.

We suspect that the error resulted from WVEC's interpretation of an interview of ESPN's Kelly Naqi during Friday's Dan Patrick Show on ESPN Radio. Naqi said that the suspicion was that up to 37 dogs were buried on the property. She never said that 37 dogs have been actually found there.

With that said, it's our understanding that WAVY-TV's Mary Kay Mallonee said during a Friday afternoon appearance with Rick Ballou on 1010XL in Jacksonville that dog carcasses were found on the property, and that investigators were happy with the outcome of the search.

 

[Big Dakota]

Proof of reincarnation

 

[silverbear]

You know just because someone is not willing to judge someone based on news reports doesnt mean that youve made any sort of point. This is the United States not Taliban Afghanistan dear lord does presumed innocence mean anything to you?

Vintage's rhetoric is such that he's not avoiding judgement, and cautioning us to do the same... rather, he's assuming that Vick is innocent ("when no indictment ensues"), and attempting to smear the witnesses as a bunch of criminals looking to cut a deal, even in the absence of any evidence that ANY of those witnesses are doing such a thing...

As for the presumed innocence, that's for a court of law, and I won't be involved in that process... I am free to pass my own judgement, when I choose, and I have no doubts about Michael Vick's guilt in this...

If you bothered to look at what is known in this case, you wouldn't either... so I feel quite comfortable that if a competent prosecutor is able to bring what is known in front of a jury, he'll get a conviction...

And FWIW, if I WAS called to serve jury duty in that case, I'd be very up front about my opinions on this case, so of course I'd never be chosen to actually sit on that jury... though it would be REAL tempting to insinuate myself into that jury, I'd have too much respect for the judicial process to do so...

This is aside from the fact I'd rather have a root canal than serve jury duty again... LOL...

 

[silverbear]

unless the Agriculture people find some evidence of interstate commerce which i doubt they will this wont ever go to a federal grand jury.

Again, if you simply bothered to acquaint yourself with the facts, you'd know that among the things found in the initial raid were DOCUMENTS which suggested interstate commerce... this is what got them into the case in the first place...

What, do you think they just took over the case because they wanted the publicity?? Or perhaps they just did it on a whim??

You lecture about not judging, then you turn around and judge yourself--"which I doubt they will"...

I guess it's back to ignoring you... oh well, you can't say I didn't try...

 

[Big Dakota]

Vintage's rhetoric is such that he's not avoiding judgement, and cautioning us to do the same... rather, he's assuming that Vick is innocent ("when no indictment ensues"), and attempting to smear the witnesses as a bunch of criminals looking to cut a deal, even in the absence of any evidence that ANY of those witnesses are doing such a thing...

As for the presumed innocence, that's for a court of law, and I won't be involved in that process... I am free to pass my own judgement, when I choose, and I have no doubts about Michael Vick's guilt in this...

If you bothered to look at what is known in this case, you wouldn't either... so I feel quite comfortable that if a competent prosecutor is able to bring what is known in front of a jury, he'll get a conviction...

And FWIW, if I WAS called to serve jury duty in that case, I'd be very up front about my opinions on this case, so of course I'd never be chosen to actually sit on that jury... though it would be REAL tempting to insinuate myself into that jury, I'd have too much respect for the judicial process to do so...

This is aside from the fact I'd rather have a root canal than serve jury duty again... LOL...

Good post.

The public has already passed judgement for the most part and rightfully so. He's lost endorsements and will continue to do so and his future endorsemnts are probably nill. This has already cost him millions and will continue to do so. After this whole ugly chapter is done there is a very good chance he'll be punishd by the NFL is some form. He's a black mark on the NFL IMO and he and his brother are black marks on humanity. Take a long look at their rap sheets. These guys are despicable punks. Continued run-ins with the law in all manner, giving people STDs on purpose, fighting dogs, and on and on. Vick is the antiStaubach and he'll go down as a shameful figure.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Fuzzy=Pointdexter

 

[silverbear]

Just let it go.

I already have.

And yet, here you are, posting away on the subject... LOL...

I am waiting to see what happens. Not everything has been released to the public in terms of evidence.

Which given the amount of evidence we DO have, courtesy of Poindexter's big mouth mostly, paints a pretty bleak picture for Vick... it's pretty clear that the investigators who served that search warrant yesterday knew what they were looking for, and found pretty much what they expected...

We haven't heard Vick's take on it.

Of course we have-- Vick says he bought this 750 thousand dollar house for his COUSIN, set up a "dog breeding" operation there, then never, ever actually went there...

If you'll swallow that, you'll swallow anything...

I don't know whats going on in Surry County. I only know what the media has been telling me.

And a lot of what THEY know has come from the prosecutor who was supposed to be pursuing this investigation...

My prediction is that he won't get indicted or charged or even suspended.

So, you HAVE passed judgement... and just like that, another Vick defender loses the moral high ground that he claims is the basis for his "principled" stance...

I also don't want to see the investigation rushed, because thats when accidents happen.

Hey, neither do I, but for a rather different reason-- I want to see the feds build an airtight case against him... problem is, rather than rushing the investigation, Poindexter was doing everything in his power to STALL it... he had a search warrant, signed by a judge, and refused to execute it... claimed that the only reason he did so was because he was bothered by the "language" in it, but of course that's BS; if that was REALLY the case, he could have typed up a NEW search warrant, worded in what he saw as the correct way, and taken that over to the judge for his signature... which might have taken half a day, tops...

Instead, he let the search warrant EXPIRE more than week later, while telling the media exactly what the warrant was looking for... which tipped off the suspects, who could then remove the evidence in question... it's our good fortune that the suspects were either too scared or too stupid to do that... or maybe they were bright enough to realize that when the law DID arrive to search for those carcasses, all those fresh-dug holes would have been incriminating...

Maybe he is already forseeing a future showdown with Vick and wants to be extra careful in how he proceeds so he can "nail him."

Or maybe Vick has been paying Poindexter and that sheriff off to look the other way, and ol' Gerald is covering his own butt... telling the whole world what the original search warrant was looking for most assuredly was not being "extra careful"...

There is a lot we don't know.

There is also a lot we DO know, from which we can draw LOGICAL conclusions... but of course, every time I point those things we do know out to you, you choose not to address those facts... among other things, we know that:

1) There WAS a dog fighting operation on that property... there is ample evidence to prove that, beyond any REASONABLE doubt... the pharmaceuticals found on the property were not needed for legitimate, day to day canine care... there were scarred dogs on the property, and the corpses of WAY too many dogs for an operation that was licensed to have 50 dogs (even too many for the 65-70 dogs found there)... there was a room with blood on the walls, bloody carpet... the dogs were tied out with heavy logging chains, to buried car axles, in such a way as to keep them from being able to get at each other, which would not have been necessary if they were not trained to be fighting dogs... there were pry bars designed to open the jaws of pit bulls, and again, you won't find that on the property of folks who are breeding pits for sale, rather than for fighting...

I know a poster on another board, calls himself SkinnyPit, who has three pits as pets, and he does not have to keep them away from each other... he owns no such pry bars...

2) We know that Vick claims that he has never been on that property, that he spent three quarters of a million dollars to buy a house for his COUSIN... this is laughable on a number of levels; first, who spends that kind of money for a COUSIN?? And if they are going to buy a house for that COUSIN, most folks would then put the house in the COUSIN'S name... we also have the testimonial evidence from three different people that they have seen Vick at a nearby store, buying supplies for those dogs-- two employees of the store, and the owner of the store... they have said, on camera, that Vick was in that store REGULARLY...

As a further rebuttal of the claim that Vick had no way of knowing what was going on there (which is, when you think about it, a tacit admission by the owner of the property that something improper WAS going on there), there's the fact that he was the registered owner of a dog breeding operation on that property, licensed to have up to 50 dogs... he also pretty much had to be the guy bankrolling the "breeding operation"; if he had to buy a house for his COUSIN, how could that COUSIN afford to pay over 100 bucks a day to FEED those animals?? It strains credulity to the breaking point to believe that he owned a business with that kind of daily expenses, one rendered even more expensive (not to mention less profitable) by the astonishing number of dogs that have DIED on that property... most owners of a business would want to know why their inventory was disappearing at such a rapid rate, without any income to show for the disappearing inventory...

So, we have strong evidence that despite Vick's claims, he has been on that property, with some frequency... and we have heard any number of investigators, including the foremost Vick defender, Gerald Poindexter, who said that after visiting that property, they had no doubts whatsoever what was going on there...

3) We have reports of witnesses coming forward, who are apparently prepared to testify that Vick was indeed involved in the dog fighting business... we don't really know to what level he was involved, there are conflicting reports about that... we know that at least one of the informants has been an informant in dog fighting cases in Virginia in 5 prior cases, and has helped win convictions in all 5 cases, which lends him a degree of credibility... we also know that a search warrant was served yesterday, based on the testimony of one of the informants (which I'll admit could be the same guy, but could also be a second informant), looking for "nearly 30" dog carcasses, and in the execution of that warrant the authorities found "nearly 3 dozen" dog carcasses... again, this kind of accuracy in the details would lend that informant a degree of credibility...

4) We know that the president of the Humane Society of the United States has been quoted as saying they had been receiving reports of Vick's involvement in dog fighting for some time BEFORE the drug raid on that Surry County property... why would he say such a thing, if it wasn't true?? Do you figure he's just a Vick hater from way back??

There are probably other informative nuggets I should be including here, but I'll let these suffice for now... but to sum up real quick, we have learned that:

There was a dog fighting operation on that property... Vick owns that property, and owns a pit bull (and Presa Canario) breeding operation on that property...

Vick's alibi, in addition to being a tacit admission that there was a dog fighting property there, is INCREDIBLY weak...

Informants have come forward to incriminate Vick in this, and at least one or two of them have considerable credibility...

There have been reports of Vick's involvement in dog fighting that predate the raid on his property, he has been what the law calls a "person of interest" for the Humane Society for some time now...

From all of this, I conclude that Michael Vick is a piece of garbage, and up to his eyeballs in dog fighting for fun and profit...

Now, do you care to address any of the points I've raised, or are you going to continue to pretend that you're above passing judgement in this case, even as you do exactly that??

They are specific allegations, which I can if challenged document at great length, naming names of investigators, offering quotes from said investigators... or you can go read all about it for yourself, over at pet-abuse.com, which has a terrific summation of the facts as they've come out, at the following link:

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/11312/VA/US/

 

[silverbear]

Well, I have not followed this very closely, so, did they or did they not find dead dogs on the property?

There are articles on this thread that says "yes", then Tryst comes and says it was "all taken back, no dogs were found"?

So, what is it?

I have seen numerous reports that "nearly 3 dozen" dog carcasses were found... I have also seen video footage, shot from a helicopter owned by a TV channel 13 from that rea, which shows one of the guys digging stopping and calling for a surgeon's mask, obviously because he'd just uncovered something that smelled really, really bad... like, say, a relatively recent dog's corpse... there were also investigators who when leaving the property said they were "satisfied" with what they'd found...

Basically, I'd say Tryst doesn't have a clue what he's talking about...

 

[StanleySpadowski]

Davin Boddie, channeling Saeed al-Sahaf:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/...47673.story?page=1&coll=sfla-sports-headlines



Fuzzy Lumpkins, channeling Saeed al-Sahaf:



The question isn't whether the "Agriculture Department" (which doesn't regulate interstate commerce, the Surface Transportation Board does) found any examples of interstate commerce, it's a question of whether any federal law enforcement agency found any evidence for a federal crime being committed.

--but--

If there were no evidence of federal crime, then a federal search warrant could not have been executed. The judge wouldn't have approved it.

You're correct that there is no need to apply "interstate commerce" when a federal crime has possibly been committed, but the courts have broadened the definition of interstate commerce to the point where any discussion of it is almost moot.

If a single person in attendence at a dog fight has a legal residence of any other state or if a dog's breed line stretches from another state, the courts have held that's interstate.

 

[Vintage]

I've gotta run some errands, so I'll make this as quick as possible....

Which given the amount of evidence we DO have, courtesy of Poindexter's big mouth mostly, paints a pretty bleak picture for Vick... it's pretty clear that the investigators who served that search warrant yesterday knew what they were looking for, and found pretty much what they expected...

And this is where we differ. I don't think its anywhere near as bleak as what has been said thus far. Because if all of this stuff was either air-tight or they had direct evidence tying Vick into the case, charges would have been filed.

IMO, what's happened is they have nothing but circumstancial evidence or not enough evidence (if anything, at all) that directly links Vick to the dog fighting. What has been stated is that people have come forward and saying Vick has been there.

Either Poindexter is being paid off by Vick.

Or they are worried about something in regards to the quality of those who came forward. The latter seems more likely.

Of course we have-- Vick says he bought this 750 thousand dollar house for his COUSIN, set up a "dog breeding" operation there, then never, ever actually went there...

If you'll swallow that, you'll swallow anything...

Yeah....somehow, I think the defense might be a little more detailed than that when/if it comes down to a trial.

And a lot of what THEY know has come from the prosecutor who was supposed to be pursuing this investigation...

OK. So? Yesterday, three dozen carcasses were found. Today, that number has been backtracked (in case you missed it, I posted it earlier and WG posted the same thing a couple of posts above yours). When/if it comes to trial time, we'll get more detailed looks at the evidence.

So, you HAVE passed judgement... and just like that, another Vick defender loses the moral high ground that he claims is the basis for his "principled" stance...

No. I made a prediction on whether or not he'll be indicted. NOT whether or not he is innocent.

Hey, neither do I, but for a rather different reason-- I want to see the feds build an airtight case against him... problem is, rather than rushing the investigation, Poindexter was doing everything in his power to STALL it... he had a search warrant, signed by a judge, and refused to execute it... claimed that the only reason he did so was because he was bothered by the "language" in it, but of course that's BS; if that was REALLY the case, he could have typed up a NEW search warrant, worded in what he saw as the correct way, and taken that over to the judge for his signature... which might have taken half a day, tops...

This is pure speculation. We don't know what happened. We don't know why the language wasn't kosher with Poindexter. You are just speculating that he is on the crooked with Vick because its not going at the speed you like it to be (or for what other reasons).

 

[silverbear]

I've gotta run some errands, so I'll make this as quick as possible....

And this is where we differ. I don't think its anywhere near as bleak as what has been said thus far. Because if all of this stuff was either air-tight or they had direct evidence tying Vick into the case, charges would have been filed.

Charges haven't been filed because there has been a "prosecutor" who's either corrupt or incompetent dragging his heels... this does not mean that charges will not be filed... this is especially true now that the feds have chosen to get involved in the investigation...

IMO, what's happened is they have nothing but circumstancial evidence or not enough evidence (if anything, at all) that directly links Vick to the dog fighting. What has been stated is that people have come forward and saying Vick has been there.

"In yet another stunning turn of events, the prosecutor who on Tuesday renewed suspicions that he's dragging his feet by scuttling a search warrant now says that he has evidence placing Falcons quarterback Michael Vick at the scene of dog fighting.

Reports WAVY-TV: "When asked, 'At this moment in time, do we have any evidence that puts Vick at dog fighting?' [Gerald] Poindexter replied, 'Yes.'"

Or they are worried about something in regards to the quality of those who came forward. The latter seems more likely.

I have offered documentation that points to a level of credibility of one or more of those witnesses... naturally, you have studiously avoided addressing that documentation... which renders this particular argument rather disingenuous...

OK. So? Yesterday, three dozen carcasses were found. Today, that number has been backtracked (in case you missed it, I posted it earlier and WG posted the same thing a couple of posts above yours).

You might want to try to run that past somebody who hasn't seen the aerial video of the investigator digging something up, then calling for a surgeon's mask on account of the smell he encountered...

The way I read it, WVEC likely backtracked because the Feds got pissed at them for leaking information they did not want made public...

This is pure speculation. We don't know what happened. We don't know why the language wasn't kosher with Poindexter.

No, it's not speculation; even it there WAS something wrong with the language, it wouldn't take Poindexter over a freakin' WEEK to get a new warrant with more "correct" language... it shouldn't have taken more than a few HOURS... and he surely shouldn't have made public what the warrant was looking for the way he did...

The way he handled this points to either extreme incompetence, or corruption... I happen to believe the latter, either because I'm a cynic at heart, or because I've read of too many cases of corruption among backwoods law enforcement types... for example, just over the ridge from where I live, in the next county, there's a LOT of moonshining going on, yet almost nobody ever gets busted for it... I know this for a fact, I have drunk the shine from more than one still over there...

You are just speculating that he is on the crooked with Vick because its not going at the speed you like it to be (or for what other reasons).

Like I said, it's clearly either corruption or incompetence... ultimately, which it is doesn't matter, the result is the same-- Vick is getting cover from the local law enforcement establishment... the REAL speculation on my part is that this is why the feds took the case over, and that speculation is based on good ol' common sense...

Here's what has been said about the likelihood of indictments in this thing, again courtesy of the pet-abuse.com website:

Two law enforcement officials familiar with the investigation have reported they believe there is sufficient evidence to indict Michael Vick in connection with a suspected dog-fighting ring that was run on property the Falcons quarterback owned in Virginia.

One source acknowledged that at least one federal agency beyond the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which was represented at a recent meeting with local investigators, has taken "a pretty serious interest" in the investigation in recent days. One of the sources has first-hand knowledge of the evidence that was presented May 21 during a two-hour meeting that included Poindexter and a representative from the USDA. The other was frequently apprised of what is included in the evidence, but has not yet directly reviewed it. Both sources were reportedly reluctant to discuss the evidence in detail. But one said that, beyond forensic evidence and also the dog-training paraphernalia that has been shown in various television reports, there are also "some documents" that suggest dog-fighting was taking place.

Surry County (Va.) Commonwealth attorney Gerald Poindexter said Friday he is confident charges will be brought in the investigation of a possible dog-fighting operation at a house then owned by Vick. Dog fighting is a felony in Virginia.

Gee, if Poindexter is son confident about that, why hasn't he actually DONE it?? This particular report is dated ELEVEN DAYS ago...

BTW, referring back to the credibility of the witnesses against Vick, specifically the guy who went on ESPN anonymously, there's this tidbit:

Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick was at a dog fight in 2000 and is "one of the heavyweights" in the sport, ESPN reported.

The network Sunday cited a police informant whom a dog-fighting investigator called "extremely reliable."

"That's who bets a large dollar," the informant said on the show "Outside the Lines." "And they have the money to bet large money. As I'm talking about large money, 30 to 40 thousand, even higher. He's one of the heavyweights."

When asked how he knows Vick bets that amount, the informant said, "because I've seen it."

The informant said his dog beat Vick's dog in 2000, the year before Vick was chosen by the Falcons with the first overall pick in the NFL draft.

Investigator David Hunt said information from the informant has "resulted in the arrest of several individuals over the past few years, numerous search warrants, as well as convictions."

Now, back to the strength of the case against Vick:

Mark Kumpf, a dog fighting expert who is helping investigators on the case, disagreed with Poindexter about the strength of the evidence.

"There is more evidence there than has been used to convict several other people in Virginia," he said Wednesday, after he was told of Poindexter's comments.

Kumpf, a former animal control officer in Norfolk and Newport News who now works in Ohio, testified as an expert witness in a dog fighting trial in Richmond earlier this year that ended in a conviction and recommended a four-year prison sentence for the defendant, Stacey Miller.

Kumpf certainly thinks there's enough to not only indict Vick, but to convict him... and he certainly has some expertise in this area...

Note that twice now, I have relied not on those media reports you disparage, but rather quotes from known experts in the field, and have named names-- David Hunt and Mark Kumpf...

Summing up, lots of people with expertise in this field, and familiarity with even the details that you point out we don't know, are convinced that there is more than enough evidence to secure an indictment, and likely a conviction... knowing that, doesn't it make you wonder why Poindexter has failed to get that indictment yet??

Which brings us back around to either incompetence or corruption... that one is your call, I've already made mine...

Do you EVER plan on addressing the very specific points I raise??

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy=Pointdexter

summer=britney spears

 

[peplaw06]

You're correct that there is no need to apply "interstate commerce" when a federal crime has possibly been committed, but the courts have broadened the definition of interstate commerce to the point where any discussion of it is almost moot.

If a single person in attendence at a dog fight has a legal residence of any other state or if a dog's breed line stretches from another state, the courts have held that's interstate.

That's right, I was going to say that too, but dwmyers point made it unnecessary.

Interstate commerce could be something as simple as dog food being produced in another state, or any other product/part which was bought for use in the operation.

In today's day and age, just about everything that is "commerce" could be found to be "interstate commerce."

And that's not even getting into the Dormant Commerce Clause.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Vintage's rhetoric is such that he's not avoiding judgement, and cautioning us to do the same... rather, he's assuming that Vick is innocent ("when no indictment ensues"), and attempting to smear the witnesses as a bunch of criminals looking to cut a deal, even in the absence of any evidence that ANY of those witnesses are doing such a thing...

As for the presumed innocence, that's for a court of law, and I won't be involved in that process... I am free to pass my own judgement, when I choose, and I have no doubts about Michael Vick's guilt in this...

If you bothered to look at what is known in this case, you wouldn't either... so I feel quite comfortable that if a competent prosecutor is able to bring what is known in front of a jury, he'll get a conviction...

And FWIW, if I WAS called to serve jury duty in that case, I'd be very up front about my opinions on this case, so of course I'd never be chosen to actually sit on that jury... though it would be REAL tempting to insinuate myself into that jury, I'd have too much respect for the judicial process to do so...

This is aside from the fact I'd rather have a root canal than serve jury duty again... LOL...

Again, if you simply bothered to acquaint yourself with the facts, you'd know that among the things found in the initial raid were DOCUMENTS which suggested interstate commerce... this is what got them into the case in the first place...

What, do you think they just took over the case because they wanted the publicity?? Or perhaps they just did it on a whim??

You lecture about not judging, then you turn around and judge yourself--"which I doubt they will"...

I guess it's back to ignoring you... oh well, you can't say I didn't try...

Love the childish antics. I was just so offensive i know.

Love how in a case that is dependent on witness testimony you have no idea of the specifics of what the alleged winesses said.

You dont seems to understand that saying they look to not have enough evidence to indict someone does not mean they think hes innocent. Its sad that you are so emotionally invested in this that you are taking this all or nothing stance on this. You rither hate him and think that hes going to convicted serving the maximum sentence or youre saying Vick is innocent and a great guy to boot.

 

[silverbear]

The one thing I'm most curious about right now is why all the other threads on the Vick scandal have been moved, but this one, which is coming up on 200 posts, still remains on this forum...

Not that it bothers me, I just find it rather curious...

 

[WoodysGirl]

The one thing I'm most curious about right now is why all the other threads on the Vick scandal have been moved, but this one, which is coming up on 200 posts, still remains on this forum...

Not that it bothers me, I just find it rather curious...

Because the dialogue hasn't turned ridiculously personal and negative.

 

[5Stars]

Because the dialogue hasn't turned ridiculously personal and negative.

WG is on the job!