Flozell Adams vs. Doug Free

[TheSport78]

I'll actually compare the Flozell Adams situation to the Tra Thomas one in Philly. Sure, Thomas was a servicable option at LT and was probably the best option on the team at that time. But there comes a point when you just need to move on. He's lost a step, he's still pretty good, but he cannot keep up with the premiem pass rushers of this league. He usually struggles with the smaller, quicker rushers like Elvis Dumervil. Look what Travis LaBoy did to him last year. He just isn't playing at a high level and certainly isn't earning his contract. Move on and start fresh.

 

[gimmesix]

If Brewster is at LG next year.... and Free starts at LT... thats a pretty damn athletic side of the OL.

Would be nice if Free and Brewster panned out to where that becomes a good left side of the OL to make that work.

Hopefully, Brewster is really taking to the weight room, though, or that side of the line would get pushed around quite a bit. Both guys are known more for their feet than their feats of strength.

 

[dogunwo]

I think Hurd is done here - we need a PR KR an a WR

Emmanuel Sanders, SMU
Height: 6-1. Weight: 176.
Projected 40 Time: 4.40.
Projected Round (2010): 7-FA

I saw him play last nite pretty good player of what I saw

I never understand why people are wanting to run Hurd out of town. Hurd is what you want here. A guy who not only does everything thats asked of him, but excels at it. He fits his role nicely, and will be the next Patrick Crayton, only better. No, he will never be a 1 or a 2, but last time I checked, teams mostly carry 5 or more receivers, with the receivers after the number 3 play special teams.

 

[jobberone]

I'll actually compare the Flozell Adams situation to the Tra Thomas one in Philly. Sure, Thomas was a servicable option at LT and was probably the best option on the team at that time. But there comes a point when you just need to move on. He's lost a step, he's still pretty good, but he cannot keep up with the premiem pass rushers of this league. He usually struggles with the smaller, quicker rushers like Elvis Dumervil. Look what Travis LaBoy did to him last year. He just isn't playing at a high level and certainly isn't earning his contract. Move on and start fresh.

Your analogy fails. Flo does fine against premium speed rushers. Name more than one speed rusher that gets more than a sack against him. The guy in Denver got two sacks. Ask the guy in Carolina what he thinks about Flo. Wash. NY. There aren't any main problems with the guy. The penalties against NY have proven to be an aberration.

What gets me is the perpetuation of myth around here. One bird chirps and the rest let out in song irregardless of the facts. Flo gives up an avg number of sacks each year and supports the run strong as evidenced by our offensive output. He does get penalized a lot but it's more false starts than big penalties. So he's not perfect that's for sure.

If anyone has different facts than above then let's here them and see them.

If Free can beat him out and do better than the above then let it be.

 

[TheSport78]

Your analogy fails. Flo does fine against premium speed rushers. Name more than one speed rusher that gets more than a sack against him. The guy in Denver got two sacks. Ask the guy in Carolina what he thinks about Flo. Wash. NY. There aren't any main problems with the guy. The penalties against NY have proven to be an aberration.

What gets me is the perpetuation of myth around here. One bird chirps and the rest let out in song irregardless of the facts. Flo gives up an avg number of sacks each year and supports the run strong as evidenced by our offensive output. He does get penalized a lot but it's more false starts than big penalties. So he's not perfect that's for sure.

If anyone has different facts than above then let's here them and see them.

If Free can beat him out and do better than the above then let it be.

So I guess you missed the Playbook episode where Baldy totally called out Flozell for his terrible ability to run block. Why do you think we run to the OTHER side of our offensive line? Because Flozell's run blocking is average at best. HE IS NOT AS ATHLETIC ANYMORE. How does my analogy fail? You didn't even mention WHY my analogy failed. Go into detail please.

 

[jobberone]

So I guess you missed the Playbook episode where Baldy totally called out Flozell for his terrible ability to run block. Why do you think we run to the OTHER side of our offensive line? Because Flozell's run blocking is average at best. HE IS NOT AS ATHLETIC ANYMORE. How does my analogy fail? You didn't even mention WHY my analogy failed. Go into detail please.

Your basic premise was that premium pass rushers caused him problems. I'd ask you to name them but you and everyone else can't because it doesn't happen. That's why your analogy failed.

And while you're correct in that the right side gains more yards the left side and the middle are above average, too. I'm comparing his sacks and run blocking against the rest of the NFL and providing facts and not opinions. He's a better than average LT and not deserving of a Pro Bowl this year. But he's still the best LT on the team unless you can produce facts that say otherwise.

Again Free may be the better LT in time but he's got zero time in grade there so any talk of Free being better is pure speculation. And any talk of Flo having lost it needs clarification. I'll admit he's not as dominating as a few years ago. That doesn't mean he's lost it though and needs replacing.

Just the facts, sir.

 

[TheSport78]

Your basic premise was that premium pass rushers caused him problems. I'd ask you to name them but you and everyone else can't because it doesn't happen. That's why your analogy failed.

And while you're correct in that the right side gains more yards the left side and the middle are above average, too. I'm comparing his sacks and run blocking against the rest of the NFL and providing facts and not opinions. He's a better than average LT and not deserving of a Pro Bowl this year. But he's still the best LT on the team unless you can produce facts that say otherwise.

Again Free may be the better LT in time but he's got zero time in grade there so any talk of Free being better is pure speculation. And any talk of Flo having lost it needs clarification. I'll admit he's not as dominating as a few years ago. That doesn't mean he's lost it though and needs replacing.

Just the facts, sir.

Looking up stats of Flo and seeing how many sacks or big plays he gave up would take way too much time. All I know is he's not the same player he once was. You're right, he's an above average LT, but what about this. Most of us thought Roy Williams was the best WR on this team before Austin got his first start. We knew Austin had potential, but NOBODY thought he could put up these kind of numbers, and he was on the BENCH. So how do we know Free isn't better if he doesn't get the CHANCE like Austin did?

 

[AbeBeta]

Your basic premise was that premium pass rushers caused him problems. I'd ask you to name them but you and everyone else can't because it doesn't happen. That's why your analogy failed.

premium pass rushers -- aren't those the guys that make their name by giving LTs problems?

 

[Eskimo]

Says the guy who was making claims in this thread about their receivers being better when you admitted yourself that you had no idea what they were actually producing.[/qoute]

I quickly accede points where I have made error - there is no doubt that Floyd is not as productive as I thought he was making our top 2 WRs (excluding TEs, BTW) slightly more productive than theirs.

[quoute]
The truth is, you shot your mouth off without actually knowing what the facts were, and now you're simply mining statistics trying to find something, anything that makes your original statement anywhere close to true.

I didn't mine anything. I had a supposition that SD had played a much tougher schedule which made some of the accounting seem closer than it actually was. When you look at our offense, we have had most of our outbursts offensively against the weak sister defenses of the league. We have played so-so against the mediocre scoring defenses and we tanked against the top scoring defenses.

SD, OTOH, scored a high number of points against good scoring defenses like Baltimore, Denver and Cincinnati whereas we tanked against Denver and GB.

I do think their offense is playing at a different level than ours is right now. I think a large part of the difference is Norv vs. Garrett and OL pass protection. If we can just get our OL to give Romo as clean a pocket as Rivers gets I think Romo can take us to their level with Felix as the RB. The presence of Felix is important as it brings in a second explosive contributor to the skill position set with Witten being a steady contributor. SD already has this in Gates and Vincent Jackson with LT being the steady contributor.

I think the potential is there in our offense now that Fellix is seeing the field more and Otree is getting out there a bit more. Ultimately, I don't think we are good enough to consistently beat the best teams in the league. I think with some tweaking of personnel we could be ready next year. The main tweaks would be subbing Free for Flo, Felix for Barber and Otree/FA for RW11.

 

[theogt]

I didn't mine anything. I had a supposition that SD had played a much tougher schedule which made some of the accounting seem closer than it actually was.

What a load a bull. You made some off-hand comment about their WRs being better than ours and got called out on it. Then went looking for some sort of data to show that San Diego's offense was better, but couldn't find it in the OBVIOUS statistics that are tracked on NFL.com -- you know, all of the statistics in which Dallas leads San Diego -- so you started looking into the details of the games to try and pick out some statistics that matched your conclusion.

Typical.

 

[Eskimo]

What a load a bull. You made some off-hand comment about their WRs being better than ours and got called out on it. Then went looking for some sort of data to show that San Diego's offense was better, but couldn't find it in the OBVIOUS statistics that are tracked on NFL.com -- you know, all of the statistics in which Dallas leads San Diego -- so you started looking into the details of the games to try and pick out some statistics that matched your conclusion.

Typical.

Blah blah blah.

I first used the best statistic for offensive production which is scoring and they are much better than us. You tried some handwaving to explain the difference.

Just the same old Siver-and-Blue glasses as usual from you. I shouldn't expect anything more out of you but I did.

 

[theogt]

Blah blah blah.

I first used the best statistic for offensive production which is scoring and they are much better than us. You tried some handwaving to explain the difference.

Just the same old Siver-and-Blue glasses as usual from you. I shouldn't expect anything more out of you but I did.

You mean excluding the non-offensive scores to help compare the scoring for offenses?

How dare I.

 

[gmoney112]

Doug Free will be the starting LT next season. He's done more than enough at RT where he faces stronger DE's. Colombo will start RT. We'll still take an olineman in the first 2 rounds, but Free will be the starting LT next season, book THAT.

 

[Joe Realist]

I thought 2009 was Adams last year but I can see him here in 2010.

 

[dmq]

My weak opinion says I have to see Free play LT before I have a clue if he can play it. So far, he looks good at RT.

 

[Eskimo]

You mean excluding the non-offensive scores to help compare the scoring for offenses?

How dare I.

As soon as you start doing that you begin removing alot of context. Like what about scores that come off returns that put you directly in the red zone? What about the strength of the opposition?

Scoring is simple enough.

Another fair comparison might be ppg against common opponents. By my count we both played KC, Oakland, Denver, NYG and Philly. SD will play Washington in the last week of the season. Using this as a starting point and just averaging the points scored on the teams that we each played twice we would get the following result:

SD scored 28.7 ppg against this set of common opponents.

Dallas scored 21.7 ppg against this set of common opponents.

So they manage a whole 7 ppg more in this sample of 5 teams.

The only team that we scored more against than them in NYG where we scored 24 and 31 but they only scored 21.

Against KC they beat us 40 to 26.

Against Oakland we tied at 24.

Against Denver they beat us 27.5 to 10.

Against Philadelphia they beat us 31 to 20 (we would need to score 42 in the last week of the season to bring us to their 31 on an average basis).

So they also win on this basis 2-1-1 for sure and likely 3-1-1.

Given that we only scored 7 in the first meeting against Washington, odds are they will probably end up scoring more in their single meeting than we will on an average basis. If that occurs, they would take this offensive matchup convincingly at 4-1-1.

I think another way to look at it is how many more points did they score than the average allowed by the opposition and then tally that result up. I suspect we'll keep coming up with the result in their favour. Actually, I'm just gonna go ahead and do the math.

 

[Eskimo]

My weak opinion says I have to see Free play LT before I have a clue if he can play it. So far, he looks good at RT.

Since he is a LT by training, he is going to have more muscle memory for the position than RT. So he is going to be better at LT than he has been at RT.

Unfortunately, his only work at LT came against Seattle in the 2nd half. This was his first real extended work at that position in a regular season game. He held his own but we had a large lead already. From what I recall he has held his own. One site that tracks these statistics has attributed only 1 sack to him (that occurred in the Raiders game on a speed rush where it looked like he didn't sustain his block quite long enough and allowed the blitzing LB to get Romo).

To me one of the most impressive things is how much better he has gotten since being inserted in the lineup. The Saints speed rushers weren't getting anywhere close to Romo. The guy harassing Romo all-night was Will Smith who was whipping Flo regularly.

 

[theogt]

As soon as you start doing that you begin removing alot of context. Like what about scores that come off returns that put you directly in the red zone? What about the strength of the opposition?

Scoring is simple enough.

Another fair comparison might be ppg against common opponents. By my count we both played KC, Oakland, Denver, NYG and Philly. SD will play Washington in the last week of the season. Using this as a starting point and just averaging the points scored on the teams that we each played twice we would get the following result:

SD scored 28.7 ppg against this set of common opponents.

Dallas scored 21.7 ppg against this set of common opponents.

So they manage a whole 7 ppg more in this sample of 5 teams.

The only team that we scored more against than them in NYG where we scored 24 and 31 but they only scored 21.

Against KC they beat us 40 to 26.

Against Oakland we tied at 24.

Against Denver they beat us 27.5 to 10.

Against Philadelphia they beat us 31 to 20 (we would need to score 42 in the last week of the season to bring us to their 31 on an average basis).

So they also win on this basis 2-1-1 for sure and likely 3-1-1.

Given that we only scored 7 in the first meeting against Washington, odds are they will probably end up scoring more in their single meeting than we will on an average basis. If that occurs, they would take this offensive matchup convincingly at 4-1-1.

I think another way to look at it is how many more points did they score than the average allowed by the opposition and then tally that result up. I suspect we'll keep coming up with the result in their favour. Actually, I'm just gonna go ahead and do the math.

LOL @ not wanting to strip down just a few of the obvious irrelevant statistics due to the "slippery slope" argument, only to then dive belly first on a Clark Griswold-greased snow sled down the incline.

Total yards? Dallas. More productive QB? Dallas. More productive receivers? Dallas. More productive rushing game? Dallas.

But yeah, they obviously have a much better offense and we can only hope to achieve such dominance through better drafting.

Whatever. Good night.

 

[UnoDallas]

I never understand why people are wanting to run Hurd out of town. Hurd is what you want here. A guy who not only does everything thats asked of him, but excels at it. He fits his role nicely, and will be the next Patrick Crayton, only better. No, he will never be a 1 or a 2, but last time I checked, teams mostly carry 5 or more receivers, with the receivers after the number 3 play special teams.

I not running Hurd outta town - I just think he will get a offer we will not match - I like to get a PR an KR plus a WR that can take Crayton's place when his deal is up

 

[Eskimo]

I completed the computation I promised.

SD is scoring 6.5 ppg more than their opponents have allowed on average. In their 15 games, they have scored more than their opponents average points allowed in 12 games for a total "record" of 12-3. In those 3 games they were short of the opponents' average by 3.9 points (Oakland), 0.8 points (Miami) and 3.4 points (NYG).

Dallas is scoring 0.5 ppg more then their opponents have allowed on average. In their 14 games they have scored more than their opponents' average points allowed in 7 games for a "record" of 7-7.

In other words, we end up with the same 6 ppg average in the end.

One thing that is amazing is the consistency of the SD offense. They have had no offensive stinkers arbitrarily defined as games where they score more than 7 points less than their opponents average ppg allowed for the season. Dallas has had 3 such games: Denver, Green Bay and Washington.

To say we are nearly as good as them on offense is just not true. They are almost a full touchdown better than us and that is a large difference in this league.