For The TO Fans... A Highlight Video

bbgun

Benched
Messages
27,869
Reaction score
6
ScipioCowboy;2818838 said:
We again return to the crux of the matter -- the culture that Jones has created within the Cowboys organization over the past decade, of which TO is merely a symptom.

But will a billboard fix it?:p:

Don't worry. The shiny new stadium will distract you from the incompetence and futility, sort of like jiggling a set of keys in front of a crying baby's face.
 

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,965
Reaction score
37,485
ScipioCowboy;2818819 said:
So?

It isn't my fault if you fail to understand the difference between evidence that supports your argument and evidence that supports mine.



The offense "couldn't get anything going" because it was forcing the ball to TO in order to placate him. You can cherry pick plays and drives all you want, but the reality of the situation will not change: In the Washington game, Owens had more passing and rushing attempts than Barber and Witten combined, and the Cowboys lost. In the Green Bay game, the Cowboys were persistent with run and didn't force the ball to TO, and they won.

Keep trying to avoid the reality...

1. Miles Austin was targetted way more in the Commanders game than in Green Bay. you were wrong.

2. The Commanders controlled the TOP by more than 10 minutes. You were wrong.

3. Crayton caught SEVEN balls, so you were wrong again. What this means is that Dallas spread the ball more in the Commanders game then your claiming. Your cherry-picking stats. While they surely didn't target Barber as much in the run against the Commanders, they targetted other members of the offense besides TO in different ways, besides the whole issue of TOP. The argument that the team was taking balls away from TO is absolute hog-wash.

4. Your the one cherry-picking drives. I've broken each quarter down for you. You brought up two drives, one of them garbage time prevent and the other, horrible pla-calling by Garrett, and even then I had already mentioned those drives prior to you even bringing them up. Coupled by the fact you ignored that Dallas scored the very first drive of the second half in five plays, three of those to TO, the other two runs by Barber in which Dallas scored. That play Dallas systematically targetted TO, mixing in the run, and they scored.

5. You ignore the fact that many of Dallas drives against the Commanders, TO wasn't targetted once. They went to Witten, Barber and Miles Austin and in one of those drives, Romo threw a pick trying to get the ball to Austin.

But keep pandering the argument that they were trying to appease TO, despite all the evidence proving contrary to reality. If this team were trying to appease TO, they would have done exactly what he was criticizing Garrett for doing, and that is not using him in motion and quick slants. If they were trying to appease TO, then why did the offense not change it's philosophy after the Commanders game? Why did they keep doing what they were doing? Why were defenses calling Garrett out for his predictability?
 

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,965
Reaction score
37,485
ScipioCowboy;2818832 said:
Unquestionably, a number of those passes were uncatchable. However, the issue still remains: Why were they so intent on forcing the ball to TO -- even at the expense of taking away carries from Barber and Jones?

Again myth... How do you explain the fact that Crayton caught seven balls that game and Romo threw an INT targetting Miles Austin? How do you explain the fact that Miles Austin played the whole game and was targetted plenty of passes. When Romo threw the INT against Pittsburgh and the defense pretty much said they knew what was coming, who did he target?

The only thing your demonstrating is that Garrett couldn't utilize his weapons effectively...
 

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,965
Reaction score
37,485
Hostile;2818825 said:
No, that isn't what I am saying. I've already explained this to you.

Just because you 'explained' something doesn't make it an adequate explanation... People often try to explain away their contradictory statements... The fact is, you stated that no team could have won with all the injuries we had, which means that even with a healthy, quiet TO, we still would have lost. So when you say we lost because of TO, or cheer on a post that states that tries to attribute our losses to forcing the ball to TO, it means your contradicting your self.

That is just the reality of it... No side-tracking can change this reality...
 

Hostile

The Duke
Messages
119,565
Reaction score
4,544
khiladi;2819184 said:
Just because you 'explained' something doesn't make it an adequate explanation... People often try to explain away their contradictory statements... The fact is, you stated that no team could have won with all the injuries we had, which means that even with a healthy, quiet TO, we still would have lost. So when you say we lost because of TO, or cheer on a post that states that tries to attribute our losses to forcing the ball to TO, it means your contradicting your self.

That is just the reality of it... No side-tracking can change this reality...
I already knew and understood that you could not grasp the two points. Therefore I already knew you couldn't see it as adequate. I won't lose a minute's sleep over it I assure you.

This team was beat up. It was part of the reason for a complete collapse in 2008. IMO the biggest reason. We had no QB to come in and relieve Romo who should not have been out there most of the last part of the season but we had no choice.

That has consistently been my assertion as the main reason for 2008 since before the season ended. Weeks before it ended in fact.

Do I believe we forced the ball to TO too often and it held this Offense back? Yes, I do. Who is at fault for that? Hold onto your socks...Jason Garrett.

I won't hold my breath that you will get it.
 

TellerMorrow34

BraveHeartFan
Messages
28,358
Reaction score
5,076
I have never seen a fan try and make all the short comings of TO the fault of everyone except TO. I'm really starting to believe this guy is either TO himself or he's TO's agent.

You act like TO is perfect and anytime he isn't able to dominate a game it's because Garrett or someone else screwed him but has nothing to do with his inability to be consistent this last season.
 

Section446

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,940
Reaction score
11,618
BraveHeartFan;2819384 said:
I have never seen a fan try and make all the short comings of TO the fault of everyone except TO. I'm really starting to believe this guy is either TO himself or he's TO's agent.

You act like TO is perfect and anytime he isn't able to dominate a game it's because Garrett or someone else screwed him but has nothing to do with his inability to be consistent this last season.
To whom are you referring?
 

ScipioCowboy

More than meets the eye.
Messages
25,266
Reaction score
17,597
khiladi;2819152 said:
Keep trying to avoid the reality...

1. Miles Austin was targetted way more in the Commanders game than in Green Bay. you were wrong.

I asserted Miles Austin was used more effectively in the Green Bay game because Dallas was diligent in its adherence to the run game. This fact is self-evident.

2. The Commanders controlled the TOP by more than 10 minutes. You were wrong.

3. Crayton caught SEVEN balls, so you were wrong again. What this means is that Dallas spread the ball more in the Commanders game then your claiming. Your cherry-picking stats. While they surely didn't target Barber as much in the run against the Commanders, they targetted other members of the offense besides TO in different ways, besides the whole issue of TOP. The argument that the team was taking balls away from TO is absolute hog-wash.

4. Your the one cherry-picking drives. I've broken each quarter down for you. You brought up two drives, one of them garbage time prevent and the other, horrible pla-calling by Garrett, and even then I had already mentioned those drives prior to you even bringing them up. Coupled by the fact you ignored that Dallas scored the very first drive of the second half in five plays, three of those to TO, the other two runs by Barber in which Dallas scored. That play Dallas systematically targetted TO, mixing in the run, and they scored.

5. You ignore the fact that many of Dallas drives against the Commanders, TO wasn't targetted once. They went to Witten, Barber and Miles Austin and in one of those drives, Romo threw a pick trying to get the ball to Austin.

I have several questions I've been dying to ask you:

1) Do you actually know the meaning of the term "cherry-pick"? When a person cherry-picks drives, he only presents those drives that, in his estimation, make his case, and ignores other drives that hurt his position -- this is precisely what you're doing. I, on the other hand, examined the Washington game in totality, which revealed that Owens was thrown almost twice as many passes as the next closest receiver (Jason Witten). It also showed that Owens was thrown to or handed the ball more times than Witten and Barber combined. These numbers strongly suggest that Owens was being force-fed the ball to the overall detriment of the team -- a conclusion that myself and several others have reached. You might've come to this conclusion as well if you weren't so intent on cherry-picking drives in order to ameliorate the impact of one Terrell Owens.

2) Have you ever tried thinking through your responses rationally rather than simply emoting everywhere? Taking a rational approach to posting will offer a radically different experience for you. I promise! For instance, you'll be able to understand the point your opponent is actually making rather than the point you think he's making -- this leads me to question number three:

3) What is it like to argue with a fictitious character who exists only in your mind rather than the poster who's actually engaging you on the message board? On several different occasions, you've accused me of being wrong on arguments that I haven't made; I never denied Crayton had seven receptions, or the Commanders dominated TOP, or Romo threw an interception. In fact, I fit all of these points into the context of my argument, which has been consistent all along: The Cowboys lost to the Commanders because they ran only 11 times, and repeatedly forced the ball to TO. The Cowboys beat the Packers because they were persistent with run, and did not force the ball to TO -- this enabled them to use Miles Austin effectively. My Austin point did not exist in a vacuum; it was coupled with the point about being tenacious with the ground game.

4) Do you actually read what you write before you press submit?:D

But keep pandering the argument that they were trying to appease TO, despite all the evidence proving contrary to reality. If this team were trying to appease TO, they would have done exactly what he was criticizing Garrett for doing, and that is not using him in motion and quick slants. If they were trying to appease TO, then why did the offense not change it's philosophy after the Commanders game? Why did they keep doing what they were doing? Why were defenses calling Garrett out for his predictability?
Again, you're arguing a point I haven't made. I never once absolved Garrett from criticism. I'm simply acknowledging that the Cowboys offense can only improve if Garrett is allowed to utilize all his weapons and to be patient with the running game (as he was against Green Bay), and neither would've been possible if Owens had remained on the team.
 

Future

Intramural Legend
Messages
27,566
Reaction score
14,714
Say what you want about T.O., and I'll agree with most of it. But I'll always have a soft spot for him because of how much he loved being a Cowboy.
 

Hostile

The Duke
Messages
119,565
Reaction score
4,544
Future;2819396 said:
Say what you want about T.O., and I'll agree with most of it. But I'll always have a soft spot for him because of how much he loved being a Cowboy.
I think he's a nice guy who is his own worst enemy.
 

Section446

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,940
Reaction score
11,618
BraveHeartFan;2819397 said:
If you've read the thread then I believe it's pretty obvious.
I got a late start and honestly don't feel like reading 14 pages.
 

ScipioCowboy

More than meets the eye.
Messages
25,266
Reaction score
17,597
khiladi;2819172 said:
Again myth... How do you explain the fact that Crayton caught seven balls that game and Romo threw an INT targetting Miles Austin? How do you explain the fact that Miles Austin played the whole game and was targetted plenty of passes. When Romo threw the INT against Pittsburgh and the defense pretty much said they knew what was coming, who did he target?

The only thing your demonstrating is that Garrett couldn't utilize his weapons effectively...

I've already answered each of these questions here, here, here, and here. Reading is fundamental!;)
 

Idgit

Fattening up
Staff member
Messages
58,971
Reaction score
60,826
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
PHof83;2819400 said:
I got a late start and honestly don't feel like reading 14 pages.

Plus, if you've got any sense in your head, you've got khiladi on 'ignore.'
 

birdwells1

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,837
Reaction score
4,074
Idgit;2819412 said:
Plus, if you've got any sense in your head, you've got khiladi on 'ignore.'

What? Khiladi one of the better posters on this site. Oh that's right he doesn't follow the rest of the sheep so you try to ridicule.
 

Doomsday101

Well-Known Member
Messages
107,762
Reaction score
39,034
Hostile;2819399 said:
I think he's a nice guy who is his own worst enemy.

Agreed. The guy has talent he also still can't let controversy go, once something comes up it becomes non stop, TO can't drop it and move on and it becomes a bigger issue. There are always going to be issues that will come up and the media will expect you to respond to it so do it then drop it and move on
 

TellerMorrow34

BraveHeartFan
Messages
28,358
Reaction score
5,076
Hostile;2819399 said:
I think he's a nice guy who is his own worst enemy.

I agree with this. I imagine Owens is a great guy, and fun to be around, but he just gets in his own way too much.

Idgit;2819412 said:
Plus, if you've got any sense in your head, you've got khiladi on 'ignore.'

I disagree. While I don't agree with him on this Owens deal I find him to be a good poster who doesn't bug me in the least.
 

Apollo Creed

Stackin and Processin, Well
Messages
9,027
Reaction score
1,223
Hostile;2819399 said:
I think he's a nice guy who is his own worst enemy.

Which is totally understandable for a rookie, or a young guy that hasn't quite matured yet. But not for a 35 year old grown man. I've never seen a more naive and insecure person than Terrell Owens.
 
Top