For The TO Fans... A Highlight Video

[DallasEast]

Which is totally understandable for a rookie, or a young guy that hasn't quite matured yet. But not for a 35 year old grown man. I've never seen a more naive and insecure person than Terrell Owens.

Quoted For Truth.

 

[khiladi]

I've already answered each of these questions here, here, here, and here. Reading is fundamental!

Responding is not the same as answering. The only legitimate argument you have established is that Garrett abandoned the run against the Commanders. The issue is your trying to establish 'causation' that it was because we were trying to force the ball to TO, that Garrett abandoned the run. Garrett throws first and runs second. The offense under Garrett is a pass-happy team. In 2007, we were pass-happy attack. That has always been the philosophy of Garrett since he has been here. The fact is, the Commanders game revealed a pass-happy attack, with the distribution of passes going all over the place. Crayton had seven catches, Miles Austin was playing the second receiver and was targetted more than 4 times, and Witten probably had around 10 passes. There is absolutely no evidence to support your assertions, none. Now your trying to absolve yourself of your shoddy analysis by arguing that you never denied such things as TOP and Crayton catching seven passes. The fact is, you didn't deny them because you had no idea about the actual statistics. Now that the evidence has been brought up, your dancing around it, acting as if you knew all along that such was the case. That is why you asserted that we ignored Miles Austin, when in fact Miles Austin was thrown to quite a bit in the game, and in the first two quarters he was targetted in drives where TO wasn't even thrown the ball. In the fourth quarter, Romo threw an INT trying to get the ball to Austin. That is why you ignore the drived that TO scored a TD, being thrown to all 3 times, with Barber getting two touches on the run.

 

[khiladi]

I have never seen a fan try and make all the short comings of TO the fault of everyone except TO. I'm really starting to believe this guy is either TO himself or he's TO's agent.


You act like TO is perfect and anytime he isn't able to dominate a game it's because Garrett or someone else screwed him but has nothing to do with his inability to be consistent this last season.

Were you one of those riding Adam's jock when he was analyzing plays and demanding evidence to prove that Roy wasn't at fault for missed tackles and blown coverages? Or were you calling Adam, Roy's agent?

 

[Idgit]

What? Khiladi one of the better posters on this site. Oh that's right he doesn't follow the rest of the sheep so you try to ridicule.

Says the guy who tucked his tail and ran in the Romo conditioning thread a few days back after embarrassing himself. Forgive me if I reserve special disdain for the weak-minded. It's not personal.

I ridicule posters for being ridiculous. Not for being independent. khiladi manages to be both.

I agree with this. I imagine Owens is a great guy, and fun to be around, but he just gets in his own way too much.

I disagree. While I don't agree with him on this Owens deal I find him to be a good poster who doesn't bug me in the least.

This surprises me. I've had him on ignore for so long that I didn't think he ever posted anything that wasn't about Owens. Almost every argument he makes that's quoted by someone else is wrong.

That said, I'll have to read more of his posts, then, since I trust your opinion. I put a lot of posters on ignore early in the offseason b/c I just couldn't take the complaining, and I don't doubt that a lot of them should start coming off as the regular season approaches.

 

[khiladi]

Tony Romo, Jason Witten, TO, Roy Williams, Leonard Davis, Andre Gurode, Flozell Adams, TC, Marion Barber, Patrick Crayton, Miles Austin, Columbo, Martellus Bennett, Montrae Holland, Felix Jones... But Jason Garrett couldn't get it done because of Cory Proctor or TO.... Oh yeah, Kyle Kosier was the great one as well... The same guy that was part of the OL that fell apart in Giants play-off game, when Garrett went pass-happy again... But keep making excsues for Garrett.... It's become quite funny...

 

[Idgit]

Tony Romo, Jason Witten, TO, Roy Williams, Leonard Davis, Andre Gurode, Flozell Adams, TC, Marion Barber, Patrick Crayton, Miles Austin, Columbo, Martellus Bennett, Montrae Holland, Felix Jones... But Jason Garrett couldn't get it done because of Cory Proctor or TO.... Oh yeah, Kyle Kosier was the great one as well... The same guy that was part of the OL that fell apart in Giants play-off game, when Garrett went pass-happy again... But keep making excsues for Garrett.... It's become quite funny...

Garrett has an offense that takes advantage of what the defense gives you. That doesn't work well when your passing game doesn't execute and a team sells out to stop the run.

He deserves a lot of blame for not adjusting during the first Commanders game, for not getting out of the max protect scheme until mid-third quarter v. Baltimore, and for not addressing whatever it was that the Ravens and Eagles were able to expose in our blocking scheme in my book.

Beyond that, it was the turnover differential that hurt our offensive production last season and, while he might get some responsibility for that, that's primarily an execution problem that's more on the players than on the coaches.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Responding is not the same as answering. The only legitimate argument you have established is that Garrett abandoned the run against the Commanders. The issue is your trying to establish 'causation' that it was because we were trying to force the ball to TO, that Garrett abandoned the run. Garrett throws first and runs second. The offense under Garrett is a pass-happy team. In 2007, we were pass-happy attack. That has always been the philosophy of Garrett since he has been here. The fact is, the Commanders game revealed a pass-happy attack, with the distribution of passes going all over the place. Crayton had seven catches, Miles Austin was playing the second receiver and was targetted more than 4 times, and Witten probably had around 10 passes. There is absolutely no evidence to support your assertions, none. Now your trying to absolve yourself of your shoddy analysis by arguing that you never denied such things as TOP and Crayton catching seven passes. The fact is, you didn't deny them because you had no idea about the actual statistics. Now that the evidence has been brought up, your dancing around it, acting as if you knew all along that such was the case. That is why you asserted that we ignored Miles Austin, when in fact Miles Austin was thrown to quite a bit in the game, and in the first two quarters he was targetted in drives where TO wasn't even thrown the ball. In the fourth quarter, Romo threw an INT trying to get the ball to Austin. That is why you ignore the drived that TO scored a TD, being thrown to all 3 times, with Barber getting two touches on the run.

By your own admission, I never denied these facts; therefore, I could not have been wrong about them. So you were either lying or egregiously mistaken when you asserted that I was wrong about them.

In essence, you're admitting to manufacturing and attributing arguments to me that I never made. There's only one reason to do this: You're creating a strawman because you're unable to refute the actual arguments I'm making, and you're hoping posters won't bother to read back through the thread. Given how I've eviscerated your arguments at ever turn, I can understand why you feel the need to do this -- but still, lying is so unbecoming.

No one can be so obtuse that they fail to understand the difference between the number of passes caught by a receiver and the number of passes actually thrown to a receiver. So I'll take your unwillingness to recognize this very important distinction, and chalk it up to a fit of cognitive dissonance.

As I said in my previous post, I've already answered each of your above arguments here, here, here, and here.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Garrett has an offense that takes advantage of what the defense gives you. That doesn't work well when your passing game doesn't execute and a team sells out to stop the run.

He deserves a lot of blame for not adjusting during the first Commanders game, for not getting out of the max protect scheme until mid-third quarter v. Baltimore, and for not addressing whatever it was that the Ravens and Eagles were able to expose in our blocking scheme in my book.

Beyond that, it was the turnover differential that hurt our offensive production last season and, while he might get some responsibility for that, that's primarily an execution problem that's more on the players than on the coaches.

his whole offensive scheme was flawed, he was asking big, road-graders to hold up in pass-protection for far too long, because the offense called for long-developing pass-routes, with receivers outside of a hurt Austin who couldn't separate from defenders

yeah, Flozell and Kosier were hurt/out, but he didn't adjust all year

 

[Four]

Tony Romo, Jason Witten, TO, Roy Williams, Leonard Davis, Andre Gurode, Flozell Adams, TC, Marion Barber, Patrick Crayton, Miles Austin, Columbo, Martellus Bennett, Montrae Holland, Felix Jones... But Jason Garrett couldn't get it done because of Cory Proctor or TO.... Oh yeah, Kyle Kosier was the great one as well... The same guy that was part of the OL that fell apart in Giants play-off game, when Garrett went pass-happy again... But keep making excsues for Garrett.... It's become quite funny...

O-line is about chemistry more than anything, it's hard to plug a guy into a random spot on the line and have it work out, tackles are probably the easiest to plug in , assuming they have a decent skill level.

Interior lineman need to know what the other is thinking, and that only comes with chemistry, couple that with proctors limited strength and understanding of leverage and you get what we got last season. And if kosier really does make the line adjustments then that's a double whammy of a loss.

Instead of *****ing about garrett being responsible for the o-line play why not cry about hudson houck, you know, the actual coach responsible for those guys?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

O-line is about chemistry more than anything, it's hard to plug a guy into a random spot on the line and have it work out, tackles are probably the easiest to plug in , assuming they have a decent skill level.

Interior lineman need to know what the other is thinking, and that only comes with chemistry, couple that with proctors limited strength and understanding of leverage and you get what we got last season. And if kosier really does make the line adjustments then that's a double whammy of a loss.

Instead of *****ing about garrett being responsible for the o-line play why not cry about hudson houck, you know, the actual coach responsible for those guys?

if you have a weak line, why ask them to hold up in pass-protection so often?

it means Garrett is either dumb or obtuse, I'm guessing it's more of the latter, and that's a sin

 

[Four]

his whole offensive scheme was flawed, he was asking big, road-graders to hold up in pass-protection for far too long, because the offense called for long-developing pass-routes, with receivers outside of a hurt Austin who couldn't separate from defenders

yeah, Flozell and Kosier were hurt/out, but he didn't adjust all year

those long developing pass plays should clear out the middle of the field for witten and should also open up the opportunities to burn the defense with screens. Choice may not have been ready to be an effective pass catcher last season, and that may have contributed to some of our perceived "flaws"

injuries took a much larger toll on this team last season than coaching did, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Idgit]

his whole offensive scheme was flawed, he was asking big, road-graders to hold up in pass-protection for far too long, because the offense called for long-developing pass-routes, with receivers outside of a hurt Austin who couldn't separate from defenders

yeah, Flozell and Kosier were hurt/out, but he didn't adjust all year

I've heard this argument made before, but it doesn't hold water for me. There are receivers running routes at all levels in the passing game, and with Witten and Bennett, it's not like there aren't intermediate passing options.

Our pass blocking was not very good last year. And later in the season, Tony wasn't converting on intermediate routes the way he did in '07. Personally, I think the back injury hurt his accuracy on those throws, but I don't think it was the case that most of the routes for most of the passing plays were long-developing.

Romo also had the run-pass-pass checkdown option at the line much of the time, too. It's not like we needed to stay in a bad play if we got caught.

That said, we also played, what, 8 top-5 defenses and still ended up in the top half of the league on offense? That's not as bad as Cowboy fans make it out to be. We turned the ball over too much and put ourselves in low-percentage positions with stupid penalties. There's no reason to make more of it than it was. What we clearly did wrong was enough.

 

[Four]

if you have a weak line, why ask them to hold up in pass-protection so often?

it means Garrett is either dumb or obtuse, I'm guessing it's more of the latter, and that's a sin

because garrett is of the Norv mold.

the passing game should open up the running game, and vice versa, it's entirely possible Garrett and the coaching staff didn't have confidence in choice or an injured barber.

It's easy to look back and say, "choice was ready, obviously" but that's hindsight.

 

[dadymat]

wow....a 17 pager of a Bills player......

 

[Bob Sacamano]

those long developing pass plays should clear out the middle of the field for witten and should also open up the opportunities to burn the defense with screens. Choice may not have been ready to be an effective pass catcher last season, and that may have contributed to some of our perceived "flaws"

injuries took a much larger toll on this team last season than coaching did, but that's just my opinion.

the long-developing pass-plays means more opportunities for quicker defenders to beat our lethargic olinemen to the QB too

this line is not based to air it out 50 times a game

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I've heard this argument made before, but it doesn't hold water for me. There are receivers running routes at all levels in the passing game, and with Witten and Bennett, it's not like there aren't intermediate passing options.

but our routes were easy to spot for the defense, and none of the Wrs were creating separation

outside of Roy, we didn't have a receiver capable of catching passes with defenders around him, and Romo didn't trust that only option

we definitely needed more shorter pass-routes

I hope this year Garrett sees the light since we do have two, very talented TEs, and a stable of talented backs

Our pass blocking was not very good last year.

because the scheme stretches our Olinemen too thin

And later in the season, Tony wasn't converting on intermediate routes the way he did in '07. Personally, I think the back injury hurt his accuracy on those throws, but I don't think it was the case that most of the routes for most of the passing plays were long-developing.

Romo also had the run-pass-pass checkdown option at the line much of the time, too. It's not like we needed to stay in a bad play if we got caught.

true, Romo deserves some of the blame

That said, we also played, what, 8 top-5 defenses and still ended up in the top half of the league on offense? That's not as bad as Cowboy fans make it out to be. We turned the ball over too much and put ourselves in low-percentage positions with stupid penalties. There's no reason to make more of it than it was. What we clearly did wrong was enough.

the scheme had alot to do with that too

we just passed too much last year, and didn't try to develop a consistent running game to put us in better 3rd down situations

alot of our mistakes were because the offense had to press because the scheme and play selections were so bad and predictable

 

[Four]

the long-developing pass-plays means more opportunities for quicker defenders to beat our lethargic olinemen to the QB too

this line is not based to air it out 50 times a game

I honestly think they were counting on tony's escapability way too much last season, and as time went by tony got worn down, and he was already hurting.

If Garrett is as smart as his education and his football pedigree would suggest this is the season to judge him on.

I suspect he will surprise a ton of his detractors.

 

[Idgit]

but our routes were easy to spot for the defense, and none of the Wrs were creating separation

That's not a problem with the routes that were called. I don't honestly know how easy it was to tell what we were doing offensively. I know the Ravens said that; I just don't know if it was true or if it was them jawing like they do and because Garrett turned their HC job down.

outside of Roy, we didn't have a receiver capable of catching passes with defenders around him, and Romo didn't trust that only option

Well, we sat Crayton much of the second half, and he can do that. I agree that Romo didn't trust Roy and he was a distant option on most passing downs.

we definitely needed more shorter pass-routes

because the scheme stretches our Olinemen too thin

This is where I disagree with you. We had open intermediate receivers we just didn't get the ball to them. In some cases becasue Romo was off target, and in others, at the end of the season especially, he often didn't have time to get to them.

true, Romo deserves some of the blame

the scheme had alot to do with that too

we just passed too much last year, and didn't try to develop a consistent running game to put us in better 3rd down opportunities

Here's the thing, when you lead the league in offensive penalties, and are second in offensive penalty yards, and have a -16 TO differential from the previous year, you don't have to look too hard to see where the problems on offense were. We have more problems with execution than we do with the design of the passing routes.

This doesn't mean Garrett is absolved in any way for the blame re: penalties and turnovers, for the record.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Idgit, I agree the execution sucked, but I also feel that Garrett didn't put his offense in the best place to succeed

I think there's a difference in players just not executing their assignments, and an offensive coordinator leaving them out to dry

the O was tough on the linemen, which in turn made it tough on Romo

 

[khiladi]

"By your own admission, I never denied these facts; therefore, I could not have been wrong about them. So you were either lying or egregiously mistaken when you asserted that I was wrong about them."You were wrong about your ASSERTIONS. Your now long-winded posts about semantics is further amusing. No matter the semantic arguments your playing, doesn't change the reality of the situation. Again, you claim that Garrett abandoned the run because of trying to force the ball to TO. No matter how many times you perpetuate the notion that it is the case, all evidece points otherwise. That is just the reality of it. Miles Austin was targetted, Witten was targetted, Crayton was targetted... The TOP favored the Commanders, Garrett has always favored the pass... It is what it is..