Former Patriots Video Assistant Speaks!...Pats taped Rams walkthrough before SB?

Da Hammer

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ii dont know all the facts obviously so i wont go this far yet but if they cheated they deserve an asterik and well u know wat if we cheated then we deserve an asterik as well... im not at that point though cause we dont know exactly all what the Pats did or what jimmy did...
 

Alexander

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Jarv;1937614 said:
Do you think destroying the evidense was a cover up or common practice, that is one thing I just don't understand and I expect them to explain why they did that.

I'm not just questioning the Patriots but the NFL front office and why they quickly destroyed the evidence.

I have no doubt the NFL covered it up.

Would you want something like that threatening the integrity of the game? They are protecting their investment. But doing so doesn't suggest that there is a greater conspiracy involved than the NFL just trying to make something go away.

Cheating is a deep dark secret that has been around since the game was invented. This is not a game of "good guys" and "bad guys", black hats and white hats. That is what destroying the evidence was all about. Not protecting the Patriots.

Do you really want to take an excursion down the corruption road in professional sports? If so, you had better get your hip waders out. It is going to get deep.
 

Royal Laegotti

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J-DOG;1937600 said:
The Patriots cheating reminds me of the Barry Bonds steriods saga in baseball.
Lots of guys took steriods in baseball. I think people are suddenly ready to admit that. But who has gained the most notariety and fame from using steriods??? Barry Bonds.
Bonds also was on the cutting edge in finding ways to get steriods into his system by using the latest and greatest steriods thru Balco.
So I think you can make an analogy that the Pats are the football equivalent of what Bonds is to baseball.
Who would have gained the most by cheating????
Who has been alleged to have taped the opposing teams walk-through in the Super Bowl and the guy mixes in with the rest of the regular press core to get out of the stadium?
So when I say that the Pats have taken cheating to another level I do not think you can just blow that off and dismiss it.
A great baseball player who is on the cutting edge of cheating can dominate and set records that may never be touched-Barry Bonds.
Who is to say that the Pats are not the equivalent of that in football?

Don't forget, the Pats are probably using roids also, on top of spying on opponents.:D
 

Jarv

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Alexander;1937616 said:
My argument isn't that they are innocent. Find where I said they were, please.



Why doesn't that "fly here"? If you believe there should be consistency, put an asterisk by our names in the 1990s. We cheated as well.

Just because we weren't as persistent doesn't make us any less wrong.

Actually it does...Just like when the leauge sends a warning to Roy Williams about HC tackles and the next one got him suspended. The Boys in the 90's didn't do enough to merrit a warning. Jimmy with the Phins stated the the leauge told him to stop and he did.

The Cheaters, on the other hand were warned and called out time after time and still continued. When it drew enough attention (ie the press) the NFL stepped in, gave no suspension, basically a slap on the wrist and destroyed the evidence so no one knows how deep this went.

That to us is a difference.
 

Alexander

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SuperCows5Xs;1937621 said:
Don't forget, the Pats are probably using roids also, on top of spying on opponents.:D

Charlie Waters said the Cowboys of the 1970s used steroids.
 

peplaw06

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Alexander;1937612 said:
So in this theory, the NFL was concerned about the cover being blown off so they engineered a perfect season and everyone else is along for the ride?

Again, I can't logically take that next step.
I think they destroyed the evidence to cover up the extent of the cheating. Once I take that step, everything comes into question.

I don't think they scripted 19-0. But there's no doubt in my mind they get favorable treatment. And they were already considered the top contender going into this season. You add all that up, and it's suspect.
 

DallasFanSince86

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J-DOG;1937600 said:
The Patriots cheating reminds me of the Barry Bonds steriods saga in baseball.
Lots of guys took steriods in baseball. I think people are suddenly ready to admit that. But who has gained the most notariety and fame from using steriods??? Barry Bonds.
Bonds also was on the cutting edge in finding ways to get steriods into his system by using the latest and greatest steriods thru Balco.
So I think you can make an analogy that the Pats are the football equivalent of what Bonds is to baseball.
Who would have gained the most by cheating????
Who has been alleged to have taped the opposing teams walk-through in the Super Bowl and the guy mixes in with the rest of the regular press core to get out of the stadium?
So when I say that the Pats have taken cheating to another level I do not think you can just blow that off and dismiss it.
A great baseball player who is on the cutting edge of cheating can dominate and set records that may never be touched-Barry Bonds.
Who is to say that the Pats are not the equivalent of that in football?

No one.

The Pats continued to tape signals after being warned not to. They cheated and the punishment should have been much worse IMO. If I was the commissioner I would have made them forfeit that game, Lose all draft picks which would be randomly given to the other 31 teams in some way, Big fines, and multiple game suspension for the coach.

I would take it to the extreme just to show that I would not tolerate any kind of cheating.
 

Alexander

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SuperCows5Xs;1937625 said:
Was illegal at that time?

Who cares?

Since this has become a debate of morality and good and bad, get it all out into the open. I bet some people would call the Steelers of that era "dirty cheaters" and would think we were squeaky clean. Both did the same things.

Be consistent. If you hate the Patriots for taking a competitive edge they really shouldn't have, then apply the same brush to the entire canvas.

If you don't, then your commentary is purely hypocritical.
 

CowboyJeff

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abersonc;1937333 said:
This is such a non-story.

He's saying nothing but "pay me for the real story" and guys who have been writing about the Pats for weeks on end now have run out of stories so they run this

If Walsh is able to produce videotapes of what he was told to film, how is this a non-story? A non-story is: "Steve DeOssie buys a cheeseburger at McDonalds."
 

Alexander

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DallasFanSince86;1937630 said:
No one.

The Pats continued to tape signals after being warned not to. They cheated and the punishment should have been much worse IMO. If I was the commissioner I would have made them forfeit that game, Lose all draft picks which would be randomly given to the other 31 teams in some way, Big fines, and multiple game suspension for the coach.

I would take it to the extreme just to show that I would not tolerate any kind of cheating.

That's the general issue here. The punishment levied by Goodall isn't what people wanted or felt was just. That's a pretty good point and is certainly debateable in terms of the coverup.

That's where I think the destruction of evidence is applicable. But I doubt it stretchs to instructing referees to keep an unbeaten season alive.
 

DallasFanSince86

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Jarv;1937622 said:
Actually it does...Just like when the leauge sends a warning to Roy Williams about HC tackles and the next one got him suspended. The Boys in the 90's didn't do enough to merrit a warning. Jimmy with the Phins stated the the leauge told him to stop and he did.

The Cheaters, on the other hand were warned and called out time after time and still continued. When it drew enough attention (ie the press) the NFL stepped in, gave no suspension, basically a slap on the wrist and destroyed the evidence so no one knows how deep this went.

That to us is a difference.
Agreed.
 

Alexander

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Jarv;1937622 said:
The Cheaters, on the other hand were warned and called out time after time and still continued. When it drew enough attention (ie the press) the NFL stepped in, gave no suspension, basically a slap on the wrist and destroyed the evidence so no one knows how deep this went.

So your anger is misdirected then. It is the NFL and Goodall's issue because they didn't punish them enough to your satisfaction.
 

Royal Laegotti

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Alexander;1937631 said:
Who cares?

Since this has become a debate of morality and good and bad, get it all out into the open. I bet some people would call the Steelers of that era "dirty cheaters" and would think we were squeaky clean. Both did the same things.

Be consistent. If you hate the Patriots for taking a competitive edge they really shouldn't have, then apply the same brush to the entire canvas.

If you don't, then your commentary is purely hypocritical.


Dude chill!!! I just asked if it was illegal at that time! To tell you the truth, I don't know if Waters or the 70s Cowboys used roids. When you said that, that's the first i've heard of it.
 

J-DOG

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SuperCows5Xs;1937621 said:
Don't forget, the Pats are probably using roids also, on top of spying on opponents.:D
Yeah and Rodney Harrison was suspended for less games than Wade Wilson was. 4to5.
That's another example in the double standard that the Pats have been given.
 

Alexander

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5Stars;1937594 said:
That's all find and dandy, Alexander...now, explain to me why they continued to cheat AFTER A LETTER WAS SENT?

Because they don't listen very well? Or don't care?

And when I heard Jimmy say that on TV, at least to me, he just sounded like he just wanted to brush it aside and NOT REALLY talk about the ramifications of the disrespect that the Patriots* showed the NFL. So "god jimmy's" statement does not impress me.

It should. He basically implied that the Dallas Cowboys weren't "non-cheaters" either. They had no more respect for the integrity of the sport than the Patriots.

All he really stated is that he paid more attention when warned.
 

Alexander

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SuperCows5Xs;1937639 said:
Dude chill!!!

I am not excited. And when I said "your" I was speaking in general terms, not specifically about you.

I just asked if it was illegal at that time! To tell you the truth, I don't know if Waters or the 70s Cowboys used roids. When you said that, that's the first i've heard of it.

He has admitted it. Yet it is not as sensational, so it isn't mentioned.

Waters, Steroids and a Slippery Slope

234986.jpg

Charlie Waters
By Mike Fisher

Posted Jul 10, 2005



I am watching TV. Watching TV with Charlie Waters.

Watching TV with Charlie Waters while Michael Jackson is traipsing across the screen.

Watching TV with Charlie Waters while Michael Jackson is traipsing across the screen – and talking about the year when Charlie took steroids to play in the NFL.

“What a sick person,’’ says Waters, one of the greatest, most-beloved and most outspoken Dallas Cowboys of all time. “Michael Jackson? He’s sick. S-I-C-K. He’s different. Even if not guilty, he’s guilty.’’

Waters is 56. A brilliant playing career. Time spent as a coach on both the college and pro levels. Now as a Dallas-based business partner with (guess who?) Cliff Harris. Part of the Cowboys radio broadcast team. A writer. A painter. A family man. All that, and he still looks about half his age, still very much the exuberant Dallas safety with the leading-man good looks. (“A lot of little girls in Dallas are now grown-up housewives who still have Charlie’s poster on their walls,’’ jokes running buddy Harris.)

Something else hasn’t changed about Charlie: The ability to be honest and glib and insightful, all in one breath. He is willing to do so today on the subject of steroids. … and his use of them.

“I took steroids,’’ Waters says.

And you can’t help it, the visions of Jose Canseco with needles in his butt and “Big Mike’’ dealing on the street corner and Congressional witnesses/baseballers suddenly losing the ability to speak English and high-school kids with grotesquely protruding foreheads attempting ‘roided-up suicide.

It was 1980, and Waters was rehabbing his knee. Under the supervision of doctors, he took what he says is “minute amounts compared to what’s being taken now. … I felt the ramifications. My personality changed. But I was strong. Much stronger. I recovered much quicker. It was beneficial to the recovery of my knee.

“I could see even then what a brute you could turn into with the stuff. I felt I had a physical and mental edge with it. I felt great about myself. It gives you a sense of confidence. I enjoyed it, to be honest with you.’’

Don’t misunderstand. Waters isn’t advocating the use of steroids. Necessarily.

But when I suggest (at least for the sake of argument) that maybe some day, some sort of regulated steroid-like material will be commonplace, that aiding rehab and adding muscle might some day be viewed as the equivalent to present-time’s good nutrition and Lasik surgery, Waters agrees.

“Maybe, to a certain point, if it is monitored,’’ says Waters, who concedes that, given the opportunity,he might’ve been tempted to take steroids to extend his NFL career. “Somebody is always going to try to figure out a way to do it. … But please, make it to where it’s fair. I’m a purist in the sense of playing by whatever the rules are. So keep the playing field level.’’

Legalize steroid use in sports? There’s a slippery slope. Do it just for healing? Slippery again, because if Player A uses it to recover more quickly than Player B can recover, isn’t that a non-level field? If a steroidal high-schooler in Texas recovers faster than a “clean’’ high-schooler in Florida and therefore beats him out for a scholarship. … well, slippery.

Waters insists that he “isn’t an expert. Cliff and I are still double-teamin’ ‘em, in the natural gas industry. On this subject, I’m just a guy with an opinion.’’

But he is, in fact, an expert on how this world works. Steroids for the knee. Pills available in the training room. And in 1972, a broken arm. Waters played with a cast on the arm. … and unknowingly to the doctors, broke it two more times while it was inside the cast. Eventually, an 18-inch rod was inserted into the arm, through the marrow. Novacaine dulled the pain. Problem was, 18 inches was a bit too long – so the rod would occasionally “stick up out the top of my shoulder,’’ Waters says.

“You’re in the league to play,’’ Charlie says, shrugging off the gruesome nature of his tale.

Yes, Charlie Waters is an expert on how this world works – in part because he was present when this world evolved.

“Back when we were playing, and recreational drugs were becoming popular, Mr. (Tex) Schramm made an announcement to the team,’’ Waters remembers. “They handed out a sheet with all the little nicknames for all the drugs, and then Mr. Schramm said, ‘The drugs we use to enhance the game of football are OK. These drugs we use for recreation are not OK.’

Says Waters: “It was a strange way of looking at it. Mr. Schramm was certainly naïve, and not aware of all the ramifications of what he was saying. His point was that you can take things if they enhance your play, as long as they’re not a danger to your health – except, of course, players don’t worry about the future. They want to perform now. And teenagers want to be the strongest in the class, whip the guys in front of them, and they want that extra boost.’’

Waters’ views and experience with steroids aren’t meant as endorsements for those teenagers; he is careful to note that their minds and bodies are not prepared for that level of involvement. “They’re not mature enough to make a rational analysis,’’ he says.

And he has his fingers crossed that the government’s interest in the steroids issue is rightly motivated. “I hope so,’’ he says. “I hope it’s not grandstanding, trying to get credit for their own political and personal gains. I’d like to think they have the interest of the games at heart.’’

We glance back to the television, and then up at each other. We’ve just gone pretty deep here, agreing that the problem with steroids might not be “steroid use’’ – as demonized as that phrase has become – but rather “steroid abuse.’’ Kids are on steroids. Rods are sticking out of people’s shoulders. Michael Jackson is right there on TV, being found not guilty.

“Why isn’t your television on sports?’’ Waters says, looking for my remote. “Let’s put it on ESPN Classic, OK?’’
 

peplaw06

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Alexander;1937634 said:
That's the general issue here. The punishment levied by Goodall isn't what people wanted or felt was just. That's a pretty good point and is certainly debateable in terms of the coverup.

That's where I think the destruction of evidence is applicable. But I doubt it stretchs to instructing referees to keep an unbeaten season alive.
If you think it's a cover up, then the integrity of the league already has to be in doubt in your mind. Once that doubt sets in, then everything's in question, and nothing's sacrosanct... but maybe that's just me. I don't know why you would draw the line where you're drawing it. What have they shown you to make you think they wouldn't do that?
 

peplaw06

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Alexander;1937631 said:
Who cares?

Since this has become a debate of morality and good and bad, get it all out into the open. I bet some people would call the Steelers of that era "dirty cheaters" and would think we were squeaky clean. Both did the same things.

Be consistent. If you hate the Patriots for taking a competitive edge they really shouldn't have, then apply the same brush to the entire canvas.

If you don't, then your commentary is purely hypocritical.
It makes a huge difference whether it was illegal or not. Tomorrow they could make radios in the QBs helmets illegal. Does that mean every team this season was cheating?
 

Alexander

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peplaw06;1937645 said:
If you think it's a cover up, then the integrity of the league already has to be in doubt in your mind. Once that doubt sets in, then everything's in question, and nothing's sacrosanct... but maybe that's just me. I don't know why you would draw the line where you're drawing it. What have they shown you to make you think they wouldn't do that?

Because involving referees would get down to a level that defies what I think is manageable.

What happened? Did Goodall suddenly call up the referees crew in the Giant/Patriot finale and tell them, "Time to get the fix on, boys!".

I just don't think that realistically you could pull it off.

It does make for a great movie script however.
 
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