Former players etc. opine on Norv

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Norv was famous for losing the close games in Washington, blaming the kicking game is par for the course. Norv was as much a part of the problem as anyone. 1 playoff appearance in 7 years, he was lucky Snyder diddnt fire him on the spot the day the team was bought.

The game that got Norv fired was one in which Eddie murray missed a 49 yard field goal ahort that would have won the game. i dont see how that is par the course.

Robiskie's first action after taking over for Turner was firing the special teams coach. The entorire time Snyder is thinking he has made his master stroke by starting George.

they lose out the season.

 

[jazzcat22]

Here is what former players and some media persons said about turner

So you only posted the negative quotes. A little biased there aren't you.
I'm not advocating Turner for HC. But be objective. It's not like robiske set the team on fire, he didn't last long did he.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Trying to claim that his record was only 40-36-1 is a prime example of cherry picking stats to try to prove your point.

1 playoff win or appearance in 7 years as a head coach is ineptitude.

Actually cherry picking stats are stats without context. i give my stats context. You want more?

Entering the 1994 season the Commanders were entering the salary cap era following a 4-12 debalce oversaw by Richie Petitbon. The team was scrapped and rebuilding began under Turner who in the first year of rebuilding won 3 games and followed up with 6 wins and 9 wins the following two years.

I am saying that it is not fair to include obvious rebuilding years. Cherry picking?

 

[Cochese]

Actually cherry picking stats are stats without context. i give my stats context. You want more?

Entering the 1994 season the Commanders were entering the salary cap era following a 4-12 debalce oversaw by Richie Petitbon. The team was scrapped and rebuilding began under Turner who in the first year of rebuilding won 3 games and followed up with 6 wins and 9 wins the following two years.

I am saying that it is not fair to include obvious rebuilding years. Cherry picking?

Why isnt it fair? He took a 4-12 team and made them worse! Was the rebuilding ever over for Norv and the Skins?

 

[Om]

And I do not believe that Turner's time in Washington was fairly represented. His first two seasons there he went 9-23 in the rebuilding process. Following those two seasons he went 40-36-1. This also despite Snyder's first two years, the first of which he figured fantasy football can work just like the real thing and the second where Turner was hung out to dry.

A closer look at that 40-36-1:

1996, 9-7. Started 7-1, then collapsed, falling to 8-7 (including 2 losses to an Ariz team that finished 7-9). Won a meaningless home finale after being eliminated from playoffs against Dallas.

1997, 8-7-1. Started 6-4, the last two blowout wins against Chicago and Detroit. Followed that by going 1-3-1 (including the famous tie against NYG in the Frerotte head-butt game) to fall to 7-7-1 and out of playoff contention. Won a meaningless finale against Philly at home.

1998, 6-10. Started 0-7, five of them blowout losses. Went 6-3 down the stretch in games with zero playoff implications.

1999, 11-7. Went 10-6, beat Detroit in wildcard round. Lost to Tampa in divisional round after blowing 13-0 2nd half lead and botching the snap on a game-winning FG attempt.

2000, 7-6. Started 6-2, followed by 1-4 collapse that included 2 somnambulent home losses to Philly and NYG, leading to his firing after game 13. (For the record, no, I generally don't believe in firing coaches in-season. But that team was a dead fish by that point).

Like I said ... year in, and year out, just good enough to break your heart.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So you only posted the negative quotes. A little biased there aren't you.
I'm not advocating Turner for HC. But be objective. It's not like robiske set the team on fire, he didn't last long did he.

In fairness to BigD i looked and there are really only two articles where players talk about Turner. The first is the SI piece he quotes right after he was fired in Wash. The second is the USAToday piece with a quote from Porter who apparently liked Turner.

It is obvious that things were out of control in Washington that final season. To me its obvious that Snyder is to blame but some would disagree.

Porter actively defended Turner and wouldnt play for the team following his departure.

 

[Cochese]

A closer look at that 40-36-1:

1996, 9-7. Started 7-1, then collapsed, falling to 8-7 (including 2 losses to an Ariz team that finished 7-9). Won a meaningless home finale after being eliminated from playoffs against Dallas.

1997, 8-7-1. Started 6-4, the last two blowout wins against Chicago and Detroit. Followed that by going 1-3-1 (including the famous tie against NYG in the Frerotte head-butt game) to fall to 7-7-1 and out of playoff contention. Won a meaningless finale against Philly at home.

1998, 6-10. Started 0-7, five of them blowout losses. Went 6-3 down the stretch in games with zero playoff implications.

1999, 11-7. Went 10-6, beat Detroit in wildcard round. Lost to Tampa in divisional round after blowing 13-0 2nd half lead and botching the snap on a game-winning FG attempt.

2000, 7-6. Started 6-2, followed by 1-4 collapse that included 2 somnambulent home losses to Philly and NYG, leading to his firing after game 13. (For the record, no, I generally don't believe in firing coaches in-season. But that team was a dead fish by that point).

Like I said ... year in, and year out, just good enough to break your heart.

So judging by this, I can say that the rebuilding was finally over in 1999, so Norvs true record with the Skins should be 18-13.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Why isnt it fair? He took a 4-12 team and made them worse! Was the rebuilding ever over for Norv and the Skins?

it is pretty obvious you have a difficult time actually discussing points. at least you have allowed the point that my stats were not simply cherry picked.

40-36-1 is by no means good at best its average. He missed on Heath shuler and it cost him the rest of the way. He realized his mistake early but he never was able to recover. your mindless hyperbole notwithstanding.

 

[Om]

So judging by this, I can say that the rebuilding was finally over in 1999, so Norvs true record with the Skins should be 18-13.

You can say it, sure ... but why would you?

 

[dallasfaniac]

Like I said, I don't really want Turner here, but to show Washington and Oakland as proof is pretty terrible. Washington has gone 41-55 since he left. Schottenheimer lasted one year, went 8-8 and Snyder fired him. Turner leaves Oakland and they win 2 games all year. You can look at his record or you can look at the crap their rosters were loaded with. God help us if Turner comes here and Jerry takes Ireland out of the picture.

 

[Cochese]

You can say it, sure ... but why would you?

It was sarcasm, you obviously have been following whats been said in this thread. Fuzzy was claiming that Norvs true record was 40-36-1 because judging him on the rebuilding years isnt fair, while I claimed every year before 99 was a rebuilding year, thus making his record an even more impressive 5 games over .500.

 

[Om]

It was sarcasm, you obviously have been following whats been said in this thread. Fuzzy was claiming that Norvs true record was 40-36-1 because judging him on the rebuilding years isnt fair, while I claimed every year before 99 was a rebuilding year, thus making his record an even more impressive 5 games over .500.

Gotcha. Time to change the 9-volt in my Sarcasm Detection Meter.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It was sarcasm, you obviously have been following whats been said in this thread. Fuzzy was claiming that Norvs true record was 40-36-1 because judging him on the rebuilding years isnt fair, while I claimed every year before 99 was a rebuilding year, thus making his record an even more impressive 5 games over .500.

actually the standard i would go by is the fact that he was a brand new coach who just scrapped the previous regimes systems and drafted a QB in the first round.

picking the bad records and throwing them out is cherry picking. you really are incapable of actually arguing points.

 

[Om]

Like I said, I don't really want Turner here, but to show Washington and Oakland as proof is pretty terrible. Washington has gone 41-55 since he left. Schottenheimer lasted one year, went 8-8 and Snyder fired him. Turner leaves Oakland and they win 2 games all year. You can look at his record or you can look at the crap their rosters were loaded with.

Okay, we won't look at the 2 seasons after Snyder bought the team, and we won't look at the requisite "2 year rebuilding" free pass when Turner first took over, either.

Leaves us with ... 23-24-1 between '96 and '98.

Followed by the aforementioned 18-13 after Snyder DID buy the team.

Followed by 9-23 in Oakland (interesting; identical 9-23 starts).

Guess the question is, at what point does any of this reflect on the head coach?

I'm remembering why we used to call him "Teflon" in DC.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Okay, we won't look at the 2 seasons after Snyder bought the team, and we won't look at the requisite "2 year rebuilding" free pass when Turner first took over, either.

Leaves us with ... 23-24-1 between '96 and '98.

Followed by the aforementioned 18-13 after Snyder DID buy the team.

Followed by 9-23 in Oakland (interesting; identical 9-23 starts).

Guess the question is, at what point does any of this reflect on the head coach?

I'm remembering why we used to call him "Teflon" in DC.

Oh i understand the record still doesnt look good. Like i said he cant run a defense as was evident when rhodes rolled into town and he misssed badly on shuler and could never recover.

at the same time he developed QBs like Frerotte, Green, Johnson and Smith. he took frerotte to the friggin pro bowl and of those guys only smith has any pedigree.

he makes backs like allen nad jordan look liike quality pros and good backs like ricky williams and stephen davis have theori best seasons on him.

Players like moss and porter play hard for him.

in 1998 when he had his best season ever a couple things happened. he had a defensive coordinator that was worth a flip and an owner that was tooo green to meddle yet.

i see absolutely no reason why that cannot happen here. you bring in rivera and you have that DC and as long as jones ahs learned his lesson and doesnt let roy turn into woodson by coddling him then i dont see why not.

i really really really want to see what turner can do with Romo, TO, Glenn, Crayton, Witten and Barber.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

ok Fuzzy, in comparison to Wade Phillips, Ron Rivera, Jim Caldwell, Mike Singletary, why does Norv stand out better as a coach?

 

[Hostile]

ok Fuzzy, in comparison to Wade Phillips, Ron Rivera, Jim Caldwell, Mike Singletary, why does Norv stand out better as a coach?

He's got a black L on his forehead that makes him stand out better.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

He's got a black L on his forehead that makes him stand out better.

:laugh2:

 

[Om]

Oh i understand the record still doesnt look good. Like i said he cant run a defense as was evident when rhodes rolled into town and he misssed badly on shuler and could never recover.

at the same time he developed QBs like Frerotte, Green, Johnson and Smith. he took frerotte to the friggin pro bowl and of those guys only smith has any pedigree.

he makes backs like allen nad jordan look liike quality pros and good backs like ricky williams and stephen davis have theori best seasons on him.

Players like moss and porter play hard for him.

One could also say he missed badly on Green, as he never gave him a serious look while waffling between an awful Shuler and an inconsistent Frerotte. As to Johnson, I'm not sure it's fair to say he "developed" him. Johnson was a 6-year vet by the time he came to DC.

Overall though, clearly his strongest area was developing a decent run/pass balance centered around first Allen, then Davis. They never 'quite' put it all together except for 1999 though:

Offensive Scoring Rankings '94 - '00: 13, 18, 8, 15, 17, 2, 24

in 1998 when he had his best season ever a couple things happened. he had a defensive coordinator that was worth a flip and an owner that was tooo green to meddle yet.

In '98 the defense finished 28th in scoring defense.

And Snyder bought the team in 1999.

Accuracy counts.

As to the implication however, assuming you meant to say 1999 ... perhaps all Norv needs is to coach somewhere where the owner is completely hands off.

Ahem.

i see absolutely no reason why that cannot happen here. you bring in rivera and you have that DC and as long as jones ahs learned his lesson and doesnt let roy turn into woodson by coddling him then i dont see why not.

Well, a strong defense would certainly help. One thing we were never QUITE sure of is just how much of the following grotesquery had to do with the head coach:

Defensive Scoring Rankings '94 - '00: 28, 21, 13, 9, 28, 24, 8

i really really really want to see what turner can do with Romo, TO, Glenn, Crayton, Witten and Barber.

Me too.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

ok Fuzzy, in comparison to Wade Phillips, Ron Rivera, Jim Caldwell, Mike Singletary, why does Norv stand out better as a coach?

Like i told you yesterday i personally believe that Caldwell is hte best man for the job provided that we can also get Rivera to run the defense. Unfortunately, i dont see that happening.

Caldwell/Rivera/Garrett is far and away my first choice.

The entire idea that we need an offensive guy to continue Romos development is important to me. So that of all those candidates only turner and Caldwell meet the standard. Now if wasnt for the fact that jones has Garrett in there as the big white elephant i might feel differently but it is what it is.

Now if you get Caldwell and DONT get Rivera then you are left with Caldwell/Bowles/Garrett as the staff and after watching Henry and Williams getting consistently burned and yet another year where we dont see development froma free saftey then lets just say i dont like that idea. Sounds like more Zimmer to me.

So that leaves Turner/Rivera/Garrett as the scenario that is left and likely. Turner has shown a penchant for developing young QBs and despite missing on his talent evaluation with Shuler HE DID WONDERS WITH EACH AND EVERY QB HE HAS EVER WORKED WITH BEFORE OR AFTER. Gus Frerotte went to the probowl and each of Brad johson, Trent Green, Alex Smith, and Troy Aikman were developed by Turner. Heck he even made Fiedler a serviceable. In addition he makes running backs perform well above their normal production. See Terry Allen, Lamont Jordan, Stephen Davis and Ricky Williams. Even emmitt had his best seasons under Turner.

Finally, if Turner was able to handle both Moss AND Porter then it leads me to belive he has a chance moreso than any othe candidate to keep TO under control.

i am not even going ot argue that Turners stints in Washington and Oakland were failures. Some people are satisfied with saying its because he sucks while i prefer to look a bit deeper. He had one of what i would calll a successful season in his HC career and that was in 1998 when he went 10-6 and won a playoff game. There were three things that happenned to allow him to be successful that he never had before and never had since.

A) A quality defensive coordinator. Ray Rhodes fits that bill and even though his unit was ranked in the bottom tier it allowed turner to concentrate on offense where he had the second highest points scored that season. It was turner's offense that carried that team despite all of Snyders gross indulgence on defense. In oakland where he dint have a good Dc you started seeing Sapp playing out of position and other nonsense.

B) He had no control over the draft. the guys is a good coach and when hes handed talent he does well with it. the problem is that if he is the one picking he chooses the Westbrooks and Shulers of the world. Now granted he did actually make Westbrook look goood but there were much better selections for a pick that high.

C) An owner that wont undermine him. His first 6 years in Washington either Snyder was too new to assert himself or the Cookes just werent idiots but it was a situation where he still didnt have A and B except that 6th year. In year 7 Snyder made it very well known that Turner was out of avor for keeping with johnson and that he was going ot be fired for it. i dont really think I need to explain Oakland.

But that is basically it. I think Turner can do some really amazing things with the talent we have on offense and as long as Rivera is able to handle the defense and Jerry doesnt let the players walk into his office to circumvent his authority then i feel it can be a great situation.