Garrett not a good coach?

[Idgit]

There comes a time when a "pretty good" coach hits the wall.

"Pretty good" in the NFL is 8-8. That is Lewis' standard.

Jumping over the Mendoza line is hard, I get it.

But there he is. And I would say the Bengals have not been talent poor and he underachieved.

Lewis for whatever reason lacks "it", just like somewhat talented players lack "it".

He can't win big stakes games. Whether it is a lack of nerve, poor clock management, reluctance to trust young players, it is there.

Garrett could have made the playoffs in a lot of the one and done games. But I don't think he would have been able to make it past a round.

I'd say instead the problem in CIN has probably been that they have a decent but not great QB and that it's tough to beat the Brady's and Mannings of the league with Andy Daltons. But then I don't follow the Bengals all that closely, either.

I don't doubt they have fans who agree with you that the coach has a magic ceiling he can't get past for whatever reason. I just happen to believe the league is more about the talent on the field.

 

[CCBoy]

I see the bias and agendas being displayed, but for a credible discussion, this fan would have to included:


5) Dallas Cowboys


Quarterback: B | Dak Prescott, Kellen Moore, Cooper Rush

As a legitimate franchise quarterback earning less than $1 million in salary, Prescott might just stand as the single biggest competitive advantage in NFL roster construction. After guiding the Cowboys to a 13-3 record en route to Offensive Rookie of the Year honors, he's going to have to expand his knowledge of NFL defenses and situational football, allowing Scott Linehan to open his playbook as defensive coaches adjust to the second-year wonder. Transitioning from Tony Romo to the physically limited Moore in the backup role is problematic to say the least. An injury to Prescott will end any realistic hopes of winning an improved NFC East.

Backfield: A | Ezekiel Elliott, Darren McFadden, Alfred Morris

Elliott is a uniquely gifted, well-rounded back without an on-field weakness. He was the engine that made this offense go last season. Though far from what they once were, McFadden and Morris are perfectly adequate as second and third options.

Receiving corps: A- | Dez Bryant, Cole Beasley, Jason Witten (TE), Terrance Williams, Ryan Switzer, Brice Butler, Lucky Whitehead, James Hanna (TE), Geoff Swaim (TE)

It's an interesting mix. Bryant stands toe-to-toe with any receiver in the game when healthy, but he hasn't sustained that level of play since 2014. A first-down machine, Beasley was among the league's most valuable slot receivers last season. As reliable as Witten still is as a possession receiver, he offers nothing after the catch at this stage of his career. Will fourth-round pick Switzer replace Whitehead in the gadget role?

Offensive line: A | Tyron Smith, Jonathan Cooper, Travis Frederick, Zack Martin, La'el Collins, Byron Bell, Chaz Green, Joe Looney

Featuring a trio of All-Pros in Smith, Frederick and Martin, this offensive line was the gold standard with Doug Free and Ronald Leary solidifying right tackle and left guard, respectively. While Collins offers a higher ceiling than Free at tackle, the question is whether Leary's competent replacement can be found on this roster.


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...-10-offenses-in-2017-pats-steelers-look-scary



5. Dallas Cowboys

2016 record: 13-3
Post-free agency ranking: No. 4

http://dal.247sports.com/Bolt/ESPN-...nkings-sees-Cowboys-claim-top-5-spot-52675467


As to no history in the playoffs...the Cowboys made it to the Division Level before losing, the past four playoff seasons - 2007, 2009, 2014, and 2016. That is over the past nine seasons.
Jason Garrett became head coach in 2010.

For the record, Jason inherited a team rebuilding team that currently is it's development. But on the coat tails of teams in 2014 and 2016. Those two teams compiled records of 12-4 and 13-3.

Both of these two teams lost to Green Bay at the Division Level of the playoffs. The difference in scores were: 26-21 (5 points); and 34-31 (3 points). But the first Green Bay victory came after the Dez Bryant score that was ruled a non-running touchdown, but a 'passing' failure. Then, the past loss to Green Bay, a loss in the final seconds of the game.

Those labeling any set of stats as indicating complete failure, just doesn't understand football or team values.

Jason Garrett has developed a strong team, and one that is capable of competing for all the marbles.


The winningest teams over the past ten seasons:

1. New England Patriots — 122 wins (9 playoff appearances, 1st in AFC East)

2. Indianapolis Colts — 110 wins (9, 1st)

3. Pittsburgh Steelers — 101 wins (6, 1st)

4. Green Bay Packers — 98 wins (7, 1st)

5. San Diego Chargers — 97 wins (5, 1st)

6. Baltimore Ravens — 96 wins (7, 2nd)

7. Denver Broncos — 95 wins (5, 2nd)

8. Dallas Cowboys — 93 wins (4, 1st)

9. Seattle Seahawks — 91 wins (7, 1st)

10. New Orleans Saints — 90 wins (5, 1st)

 

[the_h0wey]

Dallas, Baltimore, Atlanta offered him jobs, if the reports are accurate. Detroit, Denver, and St Louis also interested, IIRC.

That was before the 12+ win seasons and the NFL COTY recognition, though. So maybe you guys are right. After all, there were all those times we passed when the_h0wey thought we should have run. Those NFL teams probably just don't know about those.

Before I start talking football with someone I always ask them 2 questions. What are your thoughts on Tony Romo? What are your thoughts on Jason Garrett? You would fail my test. You are also one of the only Cowboys fan I have ever met that defends Garrett so congratulations on that accomplishment. Garrett is supposed to be an offensive coach, but he is unable to handle sideline duties and calling plays at the same time. He really doesn't do a single thing well. I'm very happy that you are satisfied with the definition of mediocrity in NFL coaches which is what Garrett is.

 

[haleyrules]

Before I start talking football with someone I always ask them 2 questions. What are your thoughts on Tony Romo? What are your thoughts on Jason Garrett? You would fail my test. You are also one of the only Cowboys fan I have ever met that defends Garrett so congratulations on that accomplishment. Garrett is supposed to be an offensive coach, but he is unable to handle sideline duties and calling plays at the same time. He really doesn't do a single thing well. I'm very happy that you are satisfied with the definition of mediocrity in NFL coaches which is what Garrett is.

Amen.

 

[Idgit]

Before I start talking football with someone I always ask them 2 questions. What are your thoughts on Tony Romo? What are your thoughts on Jason Garrett? You would fail my test. You are also one of the only Cowboys fan I have ever met that defends Garrett so congratulations on that accomplishment. Garrett is supposed to be an offensive coach, but he is unable to handle sideline duties and calling plays at the same time. He really doesn't do a single thing well. I'm very happy that you are satisfied with the definition of mediocrity in NFL coaches which is what Garrett is.

h0wey...let's set aside my reply to your football test thing, because it would do nothing to drive the conversation forward. I was just interested in your take on how many of those 2011-2013 rosters you thought were clearly better than .500 teams. And I asked because I see a lot of people suggesting Jason Garrett was the reason we didn't make the playoffs during those seasons. In my opinion, that overvalues the quality of the players we had on those rosters quite a bit, especially on defense, and I don't understand why that is. You would think actual realists would look at a bad defensive team and say 'yup.'

As for the other stuff, most HCs don't call plays on their respective sides of the ball, and I'm not the only one who defends Jason Garrett. I am probably the most consistent around here. That's because I'm stubborn and dislike the fact that things get taken to be accepted facts on forums through nothing other than frequent repetition.

But I think most Cowboys fans would say Jason is at least an 'ok' head coach, if not better. And I'm fairly sure most fans of other teams would say the same thing. Many of the primarily negative fans around here I know agree with you. But those are the same guys who generally think Tony Romo was a playoff liability, too, and it sounds like you and I agree on the value of that opinion. Just because an opinion is unpopular, it doesn't make it wrong.

The facts are, you would like to see the coach changed because you apparently think that's the problem in Dallas. I would like to see the quality of the defensive personnel improved because that's what I think is the limiting factor (and I've said that consistency for many years now). If that doesn't work, and we can't get over the hump with some significant playoff victories, I'd actually be with you that it's time to look at trying to upgrade that HC position. That doesn't make me a fan of mediocrity and you somebody who just has a higher standard. It only means we disagree on what the problems are in Dallas.

 

[haleyrules]

h0wey...let's set aside my reply to your football test thing, because it would do nothing to drive the conversation forward. I was just interested in your take on how many of those 2011-2013 rosters you thought were clearly better than .500 teams. And I asked because I see a lot of people suggesting Jason Garrett was the reason we didn't make the playoffs during those seasons. In my opinion, that overvalues the quality of the players we had on those rosters quite a bit, especially on defense, and I don't understand why that is. You would think actual realists would look at a bad defensive team and say 'yup.'

As for the other stuff, most HCs don't call plays on their respective sides of the ball, and I'm not the only one who defends Jason Garrett. I am probably the most consistent around here. That's because I'm stubborn and dislike the fact that things get taken to be accepted facts on forums through nothing other than frequent repetition.

But I think most Cowboys fans would say Jason is at least an 'ok' head coach, if not better. And I'm fairly sure most fans of other teams would say the same thing. Many of the primarily negative fans around here I know agree with you. But those are the same guys who generally think Tony Romo was a playoff liability, too, and it sounds like you and I agree on the value of that opinion. Just because an opinion is unpopular, it doesn't make it wrong.

The facts are, you would like to see the coach changed because you apparently think that's the problem in Dallas. I would like to see the quality of the defensive personnel improved because that's what I think is the limiting factor (and I've said that consistency for many years now). If that doesn't work, and we can't get over the hump with some significant playoff victories, I'd actually be with you that it's time to look at trying to upgrade that HC position. That doesn't make me a fan of mediocrity and you somebody who just has a higher standard. It only means we disagree on what the problems are in Dallas.

Debate and a few laughs are what the site should be about. i can't wait to see how this season shakes out.

 

[Idgit]

Debate and a few laughs are what the site should be about. i can't wait to see how this season shakes out.

Exactly.

It's tough, because we were 13-3 last year. We're pushing up against the ceiling. If we're not in the conference championship game this year, it's going to seem like a failure....and it's really, really hard to get to the NFC Championship game. We could easily back-slide.

It is going to be a fun season, though. It's good when your team is talented and young. We need Jaylon Smith to be a beast for us, and then I'll feel a lot better about things.

 

[haleyrules]

Exactly.

It's tough, because we were 13-3 last year. We're pushing up against the ceiling. If we're not in the conference championship game this year, it's going to seem like a failure....and it's really, really hard to get to the NFC Championship game. We could easily back-slide.

It is going to be a fun season, though. It's good when your team is talented and young. We need Jaylon Smith to be a beast for us, and then I'll feel a lot better about things.

Yep. This season will be tougher..a lot tougher. In fact, winning the division is no certainty. The club is in good shape and might surprise also. It seems the FO drafted well again this season. The Cowboys are getting closer. I like the Patriots this year...but the next year watch out. Find a leader for that Defense.

 

[Idgit]

Yep. This season will be tougher..a lot tougher. In fact, winning the division is no certainty. The club is in good shape and might surprise also. It seems the FO drafted well again this season. The Cowboys are getting closer. I like the Patriots this year...but the next year watch out. Find a leader for that Defense.

If that Giants defense plays at the same level it played at last year, they're my favorites for the NFCE right now. But I think we'll be right there. We're a playoff caliber team, for sure, and should be in the running for the NFCE until the very end.

I also think the Skins look pretty good on paper. Hard to judge what's going on with all their dysfunction though.

The Eagles need their rookie QB to step up. If he does, they'll be a tough team, too.

It's going to be awesome. Can't wait.

 

[haleyrules]

If that Giants defense plays at the same level it played at last year, they're my favorites for the NFCE right now. But I think we'll be right there. We're a playoff caliber team, for sure, and should be in the running for the NFCE until the very end.

I also think the Skins look pretty good on paper. Hard to judge what's going on with all their dysfunction though.

The Eagles need their rookie QB to step up. If he does, they'll be a tough team, too.

It's going to be awesome. Can't wait.

Watch out for those Giants. The division rivals have improved with an eye to defeating the Cowboys. Loading up offenses to challenge the young Dallas defense. Its the defense that decides the season for the Cowboys. There are some risks there.

 

[the_h0wey]

h0wey...let's set aside my reply to your football test thing, because it would do nothing to drive the conversation forward. I was just interested in your take on how many of those 2011-2013 rosters you thought were clearly better than .500 teams. And I asked because I see a lot of people suggesting Jason Garrett was the reason we didn't make the playoffs during those seasons. In my opinion, that overvalues the quality of the players we had on those rosters quite a bit, especially on defense, and I don't understand why that is. You would think actual realists would look at a bad defensive team and say 'yup.'

As for the other stuff, most HCs don't call plays on their respective sides of the ball, and I'm not the only one who defends Jason Garrett. I am probably the most consistent around here. That's because I'm stubborn and dislike the fact that things get taken to be accepted facts on forums through nothing other than frequent repetition.

But I think most Cowboys fans would say Jason is at least an 'ok' head coach, if not better. And I'm fairly sure most fans of other teams would say the same thing. Many of the primarily negative fans around here I know agree with you. But those are the same guys who generally think Tony Romo was a playoff liability, too, and it sounds like you and I agree on the value of that opinion. Just because an opinion is unpopular, it doesn't make it wrong.

The facts are, you would like to see the coach changed because you apparently think that's the problem in Dallas. I would like to see the quality of the defensive personnel improved because that's what I think is the limiting factor (and I've said that consistency for many years now). If that doesn't work, and we can't get over the hump with some significant playoff victories, I'd actually be with you that it's time to look at trying to upgrade that HC position. That doesn't make me a fan of mediocrity and you somebody who just has a higher standard. It only means we disagree on what the problems are in Dallas.

I don't think Garrett is a bad head coach. I think he is a mediocre head coach, which his overall record shows exactly that. I think Linehan is a good offensive coordinator. I think Marinelli is a good defensive coordinator. With Jason at the helm I feel like we are underachieving with the good coaches we do have in place. We went 8-8 three years in a row. Each year having a chance to make the playoffs if we simply won our last game of the year. That did not happen all 3 years. I think you can sum up exactly what Garrett is or isn't by those 3 years. If Jason Garrett coached for the majority of the other teams in this league he would have lost his job by now. A good coach can be the difference between a team being 8-8 and 10-6. Garrett is not a difference maker type coach. He is a bland, average coach. I want more for my team. Jerry picked the wrong time in his life and coach to stay loyal to.

 

[PA Cowboy Fan]

Watch out for those Giants. The division rivals have improved with an eye to defeating the Cowboys. Loading up offenses to challenge the young Dallas defense. Its the defense that decides the season for the Cowboys. There are some risks there.

How I wish we had the Doomsday Defense back. It seems like forever since we had a good one.

 

[haleyrules]

How I wish we had the Doomsday Defense back. It seems like forever since we had a good one.

yes, Sir. It was that crew that really drew me to the Cowboys...the Doomsday Defense made me a lifelong Cowboy fan.

 

[haleyrules]

I don't think Garrett is a bad head coach. I think he is a mediocre head coach, which his overall record shows exactly that. I think Linehan is a good offensive coordinator. I think Marinelli is a good defensive coordinator. With Jason at the helm I feel like we are underachieving with the good coaches we do have in place. We went 8-8 three years in a row. Each year having a chance to make the playoffs if we simply won our last game of the year. That did not happen all 3 years. I think you can sum up exactly what Garrett is or isn't by those 3 years. If Jason Garrett coached for the majority of the other teams in this league he would have lost his job by now. A good coach can be the difference between a team being 8-8 and 10-6. Garrett is not a difference maker type coach. He is a bland, average coach. I want more for my team. Jerry picked the wrong time in his life and coach to stay loyal to.

Thats about the way I feel. The club could do so much better. I mean, how many HC's have been employed this long, by the same team, with Garretts record...especially when it counts.

 

[Idgit]

I don't think Garrett is a bad head coach. I think he is a mediocre head coach, which his overall record shows exactly that. I think Linehan is a good offensive coordinator. I think Marinelli is a good defensive coordinator. With Jason at the helm I feel like we are underachieving with the good coaches we do have in place. We went 8-8 three years in a row. Each year having a chance to make the playoffs if we simply won our last game of the year. That did not happen all 3 years. I think you can sum up exactly what Garrett is or isn't by those 3 years. If Jason Garrett coached for the majority of the other teams in this league he would have lost his job by now. A good coach can be the difference between a team being 8-8 and 10-6. Garrett is not a difference maker type coach. He is a bland, average coach. I want more for my team. Jerry picked the wrong time in his life and coach to stay loyal to.

I really didn't want to open up the Garrett stuff. I was honestly curious how you saw the quality of those rosters.

I think those teams performed about how they should have. They were decent teams, with a very good QB and some problems on defense, for the most part. 8-8 +/- two wins or so. I do think Garrett made a few mistakes those seasons, but he also did a good job keeping in the games for some of those 8 wins. But for a guy learning on the job, he still kept the team in the top 8 or so teams in the league in terms of wins, while rebuilding, with a very limited cap. And now he's got one of the younger teams in the league, he's strung together 12 and 13 win seasons, and has the team on the upward swing. You say you want more for your team, but it's at the level teams need to be to compete in the NFL.

And Linehan and Marinelli both are very loyal and very complimentary of their boss. It really is only some of the fans that don't like him.

 

[Idgit]

Thats about the way I feel. The club could do so much better. I mean, how many HC's have been employed this long, by the same team, with Garretts record...especially when it counts.

When you take over a 1-7 team and get it back in the top 25% of the league, most owners aren't going to blame you for doing that. Take a look at that 2010 end of season roster. That's a lot of turnover to get a bad team back to 13-3. Right now, Garrett's 10th in the league in terms of winning percentage among active coaches. That's starting with a 1-7 roster. When management likes you, your players like you, your staff likes you, you improve the team, overhaul the roster completely, and find the QB of the future and take him to a 13-3 season with that rookie in the lineup, how many teams are really going to let that guy go?

2010 Dallas Cowboys
Quarterbacks

• 3 Jon Kitna
• 7 Stephen McGee
• 10 Matt Nichols
• 9 Tony Romo

Running Backs

• 34 Deon Anderson FB
• 24 Marion Barber III
• 23 Tashard Choice
• 31 Herb Donaldson
• 44 Chris Gronkowski FB
• 28 Felix Jones
• 35 Lonyae Miller

Wide Receivers

• 19 Miles Austin
• 88 Dez Bryant
• 84 Patrick Crayton
• 16 Jesse Holley
• 14 Terrell Hudgins
• 17 Sam Hurd
• 15 Manuel Johnson
• 85 Kevin Ogletree
• 83 Titus Ryan
• 11 Roy Williams

Tight Ends

• 48 Kevin Brock
• 89 John Phillips
• 86 Scott Sicko
• 82 Jason Witten

Offensive Linemen

• 73 Will Barker T
• 71 Alex Barron T
• 79 Robert Brewster T
• 60 Travis Bright C/G
• 75 Marc Colombo T
• 67 Phil Costa C/G
• 70 Leonard Davis G
• 68 Doug Free T
• 65 Andre Gurode C
• 64 Montrae Holland G
• 63 Kyle Kosier G/C
• 77 Pat McQuistan G/T
• 62 Mike Tepper G/T
• 76 Sam Young T

Defensive Linemen

• 72 Stephen Bowen DE
• 78 Josh Brent NT
• 92 Marcus Dixon DE
• 97 Jason Hatcher DE
• 69 Sean Lissemore DE/NT
• 99 Igor Olshansky DE
• 90 Jay Ratliff NT
• 95 Junior Siavii NT
• 96 Marcus Spears DE

Linebackers

• 51 Keith Brooking ILB
• 57 Victor Butler OLB/DE
• 56 Bradie James ILB
• 98 Curtis Johnson OLB/DE
• 50 Sean Lee ILB
• 53 Steve Octavien OLB/ILB
• 54 Brandon Sharpe ILB/OLB
• 93 Anthony Spencer OLB/DE
• 94 DeMarcus Ware OLB/DE
• 59 Brandon Williams OLB/DE
• 58 Jason Williams ILB
• 52 Leon Williams ILB

Defensive Backs

• 20 Alan Ball FS/CB
• 42 Barry Church SS
• 26 Cletis Gordon CB
• 36 Michael Hamlin FS
• 21 Mike Jenkins CB
• 37 Bryan McCann CB
• 40 Danny McCray FS
• 41 Terence Newman CB
• 32 Orlando Scandrick CB
• 43 Gerald Sensabaugh SS
• 30 Jamar Wall CB
• 25 Pat Watkins SS

Special Teams

• 4 Delbert Alvarado P/K
• 18 David Buehler K
• 91 L. P. Ladouceur LS
• 1 Mat McBriar P

Reserve Lists

• 80 Martellus Bennett TE (Active/NF-Inj.)
• 55 Stephen Hodge ILB (Active/PUP)
• 27 Akwasi Owusu-Ansah FS (Active/NF-Inj.)
• 74 Lorenzo Washington DE (Active/PUP)

Take a look at that roster. Does that really look like a contending team to anybody? Because I see a team on paper that ought to have finished at around .500.

 

[haleyrules]

Nice post. The 1-7 club he took over was his club also...he was the biggest part of the 1-7 not to put too fine a point on it. The latest 13-3 club was a direct result of adding Prescott and Elliott..etc..etc which resulted from Jason's 4-12 reason!? So there is two sides to Jason. I mean give him enough players and l suppose he could pull off a Barry Switzer! Thats what l am praying for if ole Jerry boy continues on with Garrett. This season should tell the tale. 10 yrs of one average, bland, HC coach is enough. To me, if the club wants to take that next big step it needs to improve at HC.

 

[the_h0wey]

I really didn't want to open up the Garrett stuff. I was honestly curious how you saw the quality of those rosters.

I think those teams performed about how they should have. They were decent teams, with a very good QB and some problems on defense, for the most part. 8-8 +/- two wins or so. I do think Garrett made a few mistakes those seasons, but he also did a good job keeping in the games for some of those 8 wins. But for a guy learning on the job, he still kept the team in the top 8 or so teams in the league in terms of wins, while rebuilding, with a very limited cap. And now he's got one of the younger teams in the league, he's strung together 12 and 13 win seasons, and has the team on the upward swing. You say you want more for your team, but it's at the level teams need to be to compete in the NFL.

And Linehan and Marinelli both are very loyal and very complimentary of their boss. It really is only some of the fans that don't like him.

This is precisely why he should have never been our head coach to start out with. He had zero clue what he was doing when he was promoted. Has he made some progress, sure just as anybody who does a job for a certain amount of time does. As he's learning on the fly we wasted some of Tonys best years. Our roster is in a much better place now sure, but I still don't trust him to win us a super bowl. In my opinion he has shown nothing to make me think he can take this team to a conference championship much less a Super Bowl. I think if we had an adequate head coach any of those three 8 and 8 years we make the playoffs at the bare minimum once.

 

[PA Cowboy Fan]

This is precisely why he should have never been our head coach to start out with. He had zero clue what he was doing when he was promoted. Has he made some progress, sure just as anybody who does a job for a certain amount of time does. As he's learning on the fly we wasted some of Tonys best years. Our roster is in a much better place now sure, but I still don't trust him to win us a super bowl. In my opinion he has shown nothing to make me think he can take this team to a conference championship much less a Super Bowl. I think if we had an adequate head coach any of those three 8 and 8 years we make the playoffs at the bare minimum once.

And it isn't like those 8-8 seasons were that great. The NFC East was mediocre to begin with. If we were in a stronger division chances are we wouldn't have even competed.

 

[cowboyblue22]

there I s a real possibility that the cowboys don't even make the playoffs this year if they don't the call to fire garrett will get really loud and I for one hope he does