Garrett vs. Lewis what's the difference?

[PA Cowboy Fan]

Seeing this thread again just makes me laugh.

After the trifecta of 8-8 seasons you'd see posts about how it was a good thing Dallas didn't give up on Jimmy so soon. Ya know, because with the teams each guy inherited being identical and everything else being equal, it's only a matter of time before Jason leads the team to a championship. Similar statements about Landry were made as well although I'm not sure why. I guess because coaching a team in the first year of it's existence isn't all that different than assuming a HC position with key pieces in place.

Here we are in the 5th year of Jason's stint and now we get the comparisons to Marvin Lewis. Have no idea why because there's not even an appeal to familiarity or sentiment. He's just a coach who's been with his team for a long time and now his team is contending. Little surprised we skipped Bill Cowher. May have taken him 15 years to win a championship, but at least he won a championship. Just give Jason another decade and you'll see. Nothing against Marvin Lewis, but without a championship under his belt aren't we lowering the bar quite a bit? We've now moved from HoF coaches to guys who were close but couldn't get their team to that next level of success?

I feel a bit cheated. Had things fallen in the proper order where we consistently move the timeframe back until Jason's inevitable rise to glory, we could have had some interesting topics. I'm quite certain at some point we would have seen a post about how someone played Madden in Franchise Mode and after only 25 simulated seasons under the same head coach his team finally won a Super Bowl.

Come on guys, just give Jason another 13 years to get this done. I stuck with my Madden head coach for over 2 decades and it finally paid off. Where would my franchise have been if we would have cut ties after year 21 of his leadership?

Jason actually does have a playoff win, something Lewis does not. lol

 

[dfense]

I already explained that... They were 11-5 in their third year, one of the hottest, if not hottest teams in the league, and then Palmer got his knees taken out. And that happened, he wasn't the same. That's why he ended up with the Raiders, only to revive his career in Arizona. But he's never been the same.

Garrett in his third year, once again choked his way out of the play-offs and then got play-calling duties stripped from him, nothing Marvin Lewis ever saw and ended up 12-4 and then scrubbed again, once Romo was out and he had to coach himself again. Plus, they fired Rob Ryan and went to a 4-3, brought in Kiffen, fired him and then went with Marinelli... And then just let the guy that built their OL, go to the Commanders, because Garrett felt threatened...

Actually, Palmer is better now than he ever was in Cincy. And I'm sure they wanted Callahan to stay, but he failed as a coordinator and wanted out. People fail to see that Garrett inherited a old worn out Oline, a slow 3-4 defensive personel. He persuaded the old man to build the line rather than go after the flashy players. I'm surprised they went as far as they did last year. They still need defensive personel like a DT to match up with Crawford, a safety with some range, a CB with man ability, and some LB depth.

What was last year? an aberration? They had luck and a relatively injury free roster. Seems the coaching was just fine then.

 

[khiladi]

Actually, Palmer is better now than he ever was in Cincy. And I'm sure they wanted Callahan to stay, but he failed as a coordinator and wanted out. People fail to see that Garrett inherited a old worn out Oline, a slow 3-4 defensive personel. He persuaded the old man to build the line rather than go after the flashy players. I'm surprised they went as far as they did last year. They still need defensive personel like a DT to match up with Crawford, a safety with some range, a CB with man ability, and some LB depth.

What was last year? an aberration? They had luck and a relatively injury free roster. Seems the coaching was just fine then.

1. Give us Bruce Arians then and nobody will be complaining about us having a scrub Jason Garrett.

2. I don't get your point about Palmer being better now, even if that is true regarding his first three years, which I acknowledged as good. He got his knee taken out and he wasn't the same for years, his play deteriorating in Arizona and then ending up with the Raiders, if I remember after a brief retirement because he thought his career was over with.

3. Jerry already admitted Jason Garrett was effectively the play-caller the year Callahan 'failed'. He said he kept interfering and I find it comical for Garrett-homers to sit their and wallow in all sorts of excuses for Garrett over an 8 year period of pretty much absolutely control over the offense and not consider it a failure, but is so quick to point out Callahan's alleged 'failure' for a brief stint, with an interfering HC cry-baby. Callahan didn't fail with the Raiders and took that team both to the AFC championship and SB and had Gannon playing at an MVP level.

4. Jason BUILT that OL. It was Jason who brought Hudson Houck here from Miami and it was the same big; hefty lineman he played under and coached under his whole life. Jason operated under a man-scheme, not zone-blocking scheme and the only reason, Callahan ended up here was because of Houck retiring. It's clear Jason felt threatened and Wade Phillips wanted to to bring in Mike Solari way before they even want zone, so it was because of our red-headed clown that we wasted years in our trash OL. Jason had nothing to do with picks like Frederik, because Garrett and Stephen had Sharif Loyd on the board and ended being over-ruled. They had no idea for 3 months that Marinelli didn't like him and Floyd was a 3-4 guy and they already went 4-3.

5. The ONLY OL they drafted in intentionally as a whole was Smith, and that was because Jerry was looking for that left tackle to replace Flozell Adams, who went to the Steelers. And during the tenure of Jason controlling the offense with Hudson Houck, Dallas followed their traditional pattern that they still do, by filling holes with free agencies. This is why they went and got Leonard Davis and guys like Montrae Holland. Garrett had no vision in building this OL, particularly since he couldn't coach a run game to save his life. Even Wade was trying to get Dan Reeves here to baby-sit that clown.

6. YES, last year was an ABERRATION. Garrett has been here for over 8 years and so has is father and brother, Judd whose nor running the pro scouting department clown show at Valley Ranch. And it was an aberration because Tony Romo was healthy and Garrett was minimized in his role in the offense and as Jerry said, they'd have him walking around on defense. So basically your argument is that Garrett can only coach when the stars align and Romo doesn't get injured and so on... But the rest of his tenure is the aberration. And teams adjusted as well, stacking the lines particularly on first and forcing the Cowboys into second and third and longs, even with Romo. That's why he got injured again..

Comical, that your example of 'fine coaching' as proof of Garrett being a good coach is the biggest of example of him being removed from the coaching equation and as Jerry said in the off-season that year, his role would be ambiguous and Jason can succeed in that role. And then Romo was lost and we couldn't even win a game, because Jason was back and we had guys like Cassell and Weeden running his scheme.

 

[khiladi]

Seeing this thread again just makes me laugh.

After the trifecta of 8-8 seasons you'd see posts about how it was a good thing Dallas didn't give up on Jimmy so soon. Ya know, because with the teams each guy inherited being identical and everything else being equal, it's only a matter of time before Jason leads the team to a championship. Similar statements about Landry were made as well although I'm not sure why. I guess because coaching a team in the first year of it's existence isn't all that different than assuming a HC position with key pieces in place.

Here we are in the 5th year of Jason's stint and now we get the comparisons to Marvin Lewis. Have no idea why because there's not even an appeal to familiarity or sentiment. He's just a coach who's been with his team for a long time and now his team is contending. Little surprised we skipped Bill Cowher. May have taken him 15 years to win a championship, but at least he won a championship. Just give Jason another decade and you'll see. Nothing against Marvin Lewis, but without a championship under his belt aren't we lowering the bar quite a bit? We've now moved from HoF coaches to guys who were close but couldn't get their team to that next level of success?

I feel a bit cheated. Had things fallen in the proper order where we consistently move the timeframe back until Jason's inevitable rise to glory, we could have had some interesting topics. I'm quite certain at some point we would have seen a post about how someone played Madden in Franchise Mode and after only 25 simulated seasons under the same head coach his team finally won a Super Bowl.

Come on guys, just give Jason another 13 years to get this done. I stuck with my Madden head coach for over 2 decades and it finally paid off. Where would my franchise have been if we would have cut ties after year 21 of his leadership?

That is exactly what happened.

NONE of these guys were blaming the roster when Garrett took over and their primary focus was on the lack of discipline and a weak culture in Valley Ranch that caused them to keep losing. They then started finding all sorts of excuses for the stagnant offense of Jason, other than his play-calling. Countless times we heard and still here about the inability of the second receiver to get open. We've tried to simply plug and play with all sorts of characters without success. They then started blaming guys like Amendola as a scrub, who pretty much never caught a ball in Vally Ranch but so happens to catch balls regularly in New England, while not even being the third options at time. One year they resorted to the fact that Dez Bryant doesn't know how to run his proper routes and can't understand his playbook. Then Romo and Dez went on this tear between November and December, essentially going up-tempo and fast pace, scrapping Garrett's trash game-plan. That year in particular they were among the last in first-half scoring. After that year, they blamed Romo for checking out the run plays, their latest fad, including idiots like Babe Laufenburg, the biggest Garrett-homer around, then Orton threw two picks against the Eagles while throwing like 40 times. The comical thing is half these homers were arguing that Orton ran Garrett's offense better than Romo and that too based on a perception created by the fact the Eagles were playing man and bungled their safety coverages all day and yet, Orton still choked.

Then they had the excuse of defense. They fired Rob Ryan because he didn't generate 'TOs', as if the stagnant offense of the Cowboys that couldn't maintain drives had nothing to do with putting pressure on the defense. Garrett even said that the defense needed to give the offense more opportunities. Convenient that Garrett would blame their misfortune on the defense. Don't you see a trend here? So they changed the whole philosophical scheme of the defense, per Garrett's own words, to BAIL OUT HIS OFFENSE. And they ended up getting Kiffen, a hire that goes back to guys like Lacewell and Jim Garrett and this clown was setting records of futility on defense. Then the Garrett homers started to disaffiliate Garrett from Kiffen, when they tried so diligently to make the connection with him during the Tampa years prior to the season. And then Marinelli took over and he had a decent year and 12-4 happened, but we returned to futility this year. And Romo wasn't here, so nobody could audible at the line in this scheme. Cassell was even saying he wasn't involved in any of the game-planning when he came here, meaning they went back to the pre-Romo new contract years when Garrett and his coaches were devising the plan.

And once again when they go 0-7, what's the excuse from Jerry Jones, Jason Garrett and the rest of the homers.. The defense didn't produce enough turnovers and they were constantly alluding to this when they were still in contention for the play-offs. Do you see the trend here? It wasn't the back-up that was the problem, Weeden throwing the best spiral you have ever seen, it was the turnovers, the very same defense that the organization claimed was it's weakest link. They expected the defense to come and rescue the offense, which was supposedly their best aspect out... How is any team going to cause this defense to generate TOs when their is no pressure on the opposing defense to stop this conservative offense and keep pace with them? And what happens as well is the Cowboys end up throwing INTs and committing TOs because the opposing defense knows exactly what is coming.

And they did the same thing with Hardy they expected of Romo... He would save the defense, like Romo would save the offense... That's how inept this staff is..

 

[Alexander]

He persuaded the old man to build the line rather than go after the flashy players.

It took several drafts though. People keep forgetting the first attempt after they cut all the fat with Colombo, Adams and Smith, they went with a combo of Livings and Bernadeau, along with a horrible draft on top.

 

[khiladi]

And the Garrett tenure's focus has always been on the defense as being their main failure. They leveraged a draft to pick Mo Claiborne the very first year Garrett became HC. They didn't target any OL their first pick, so to act like Garrett had some vision on building on OL is utterly absurd. BTW, that was Callahan's first year with the team and he ended up getting Leary as an UNDRAFTED free agent and he started building the OL.

Then the next year happen when they fired Rob Ryan and they totally revamped their defensive scheme. And as Stephen Jones even admitted they were set on drafting Sharif Floyd and admitted the board-room chaos and confirmed that Jerry Jones over-ruled at the last minute, based on Marinelli. Further, it was Callahan who worked out Frederik at Wisconsin, the alma-matter of Bill and was begging they draft him. And the following year, Jerry stated immediately after the draft that they had 3 DEFENSIVE players on board before they even picked Martin, clearly indicating they were taking defense.

Jerry and Jason during this time clearly didn't think the primary issues were on offense and it's pretty clear that the faults he starting attributing to the offense were play-calling and that only started happening the first year Callahan was here. Callahan apparently was making his mark after the first year, because Jones was quick enough to appoint him OC after Jason had total control for 5 years. But even then, Jason kept interfering and it's a testimony to the Garrett influence in Valley Ranch that a HC could interfere with the decision, change the set-up of calling plays by taking the microphone and moving Wade Wilson upto the box, another one of these clowns, and throwing himself into the equation. It's obvious Jason was feeling threatened and then Jerry, in order to compromise, brought in Linehan. Jerry himself admitted that Callahan was bringing a new offense to the equation and it wasn't fair to him. So the issue was Garrett put up resistance to change the offense and always has, even with Romo. And this year, Jerry also flat-out admitted after Callahan left and the blocking was not even close to last year's level that they missed him that Callahan wanted to run the offense.

And with Romo gone, we see how bogus the scheme is.

 

[khiladi]

It took several drafts though. People keep forgetting the first attempt after they cut all the fat with Colombo, Adams and Smith, they went with a combo of Livings and Bernadeau, along with a horrible draft on top.

Drafts that they were focusing on the defense. They were drafting for man blocking schemes and preferred big, hefty lineman. Garrett played his whole career in that scheme and coached in that scheme. Houck was with him in Dallas and was with him in Miami.

And Dallas during those years filled their holes by free agency, which is their philosophy as Garrett stated many times. They allegedly draft BPA and fill needs via free agency which is why they went Leonard Davis and guys like Montrae Holland. The only exception Garrett said, which was they year they ended up going Claiborne, was with Smith and even that is disputable because he was the BPA and arguably the best LT to come out in decades. And this pick was for LT and to replace Flozell Adams and we know how much Dallas gushed about the LT to protect the blind-side of Romo even prior to Garrett becoming HC.

Callahan came and rebuilt the line after Houck retired. And the Commanders line is facing plenty of injuries this year, losing their starting center. Starting two new rookies I believe and shifting the line around to compensate. And they had 8 starting players out last game, so the Cowboys aren't the only team with injuries.

 

[Hawkeye19]

I'm not necessarily sure Romo likes the system.

Romo wasn't even involved in the game-planning, until Jerry gave him the new contract and started removing Garrett away from the play-calling role. That was the year they tried with Callahan.

I'm beginning to think Romo finally started complaining. Garrett had control...

He and Garrett sure seem to pal around a lot... They've been together for a looooong time. Romo and Garrett only have nice things to say about each other-- and Romo is as "all in" with Garrett's "process" -- as Garrett is with Tony being his QB.

The question comes down to his health. This season is tough to analyze. He broke his collarbone on a tough hit that could have happened to any QB really. Then-- he came back too early to try and save our season and re-injured it.

By all accounts his back is better than ever-- and bones normally grow back stronger after they're broken. With a full offseason to recover-- I anticipate Romo will have a bounce back year next year. We need to definitely draft his successor and add a quality backup (could be Cassel if he plays well after getting more familiar with this system)-- but I think our best chance to win is to keep Tony in the same offense, and pour resources into fixing the defense and running game.

 

[khiladi]

He and Garrett sure seem to pal around a lot... They've been together for a looooong time. Romo and Garrett only have nice things to say about each other-- and Romo is as "all in" with Garrett's "process" -- as Garrett is with Tony being his QB.

The question comes down to his health. This season is tough to analyze. He broke his collarbone on a tough hit that could have happened to any QB really. Then-- he came back too early to try and save our season and re-injured it.

By all accounts his back is better than ever-- and bones normally grow back stronger after they're broken. With a full offseason to recover-- I anticipate Romo will have a bounce back year next year. We need to definitely draft his successor and add a quality backup (could be Cassel if he plays well after getting more familiar with this system)-- but I think our best chance to win is to keep Tony in the same offense, and pour resources into fixing the defense and running game.

Garrett started following Romo around...

And those situations you see them in, are because of the 'coaching program' Garrett has in place. In the off-season a couple of the players, along with Garrett, go to various coaching programs with well-respected coaches to 'learn from them'. That is why you have started seeing them at Duke regularly.

Romo even joked around with TO when he was here.

 

[Hawkeye19]

Garrett started following Romo around...

And those situations you see them in, are because of the 'coaching program' Garrett has in place. In the off-season a couple of the players, along with Garrett, go to various coaching programs with well-respected coaches to 'learn from them'. That is why you have started seeing them at Duke regularly.

Romo even joked around with TO when he was here.

So are you saying Garrett and Romo are just "acting" like friends? There's a lot more evidence to the contrary. Tony has put up GREAT numbers in this offense-- why would he want to change it?

 

[khiladi]

So are you saying Garrett and Romo are just "acting" like friends? There's a lot more evidence to the contrary. Tony has put up GREAT numbers in this offense-- why would he want to change it?

Romo put up numbers in Parcells offense. And Cassell and Weeden and even Kitna, put up garbage numbers in Garrett's. It's because of Romo that Garrett's offense put up numbers. Garrett's offense also dropped from 2nd in scoring when Sparano was running it to 18 in one season and consistently followed that trend and it was amongst the worst in red-zone scoring, the problem resurfacing once again this year when Garrett's coaching became 'influential' once again when Romo went out.

Name me a credible HC that hangs out with his players. As I said, those pictures you see are Garrett and Romo together as part of Garrett's program in the off-season. That's why guys like Witten and Murray also attend.

 

[DC Cowboy]

He finally got a decent QB, while Garrett has had a decent QB and continuously sucked..

He has more than a decent QB. He has a good receiving corp, good tight end, 2 good RBs, and a good Defense.

 

[SHAMSzy]

Garrett is white with red hair, while Lewis is black with a QB with red hair?

 

[NoLuv4Jerry]

1. Give us Bruce Arians then and nobody will be complaining about us having a scrub Jason Garrett.

2. I don't get your point about Palmer being better now, even if that is true regarding his first three years, which I acknowledged as good. He got his knee taken out and he wasn't the same for years, his play deteriorating in Arizona and then ending up with the Raiders, if I remember after a brief retirement because he thought his career was over with.

3. Jerry already admitted Jason Garrett was effectively the play-caller the year Callahan 'failed'. He said he kept interfering and I find it comical for Garrett-homers to sit their and wallow in all sorts of excuses for Garrett over an 8 year period of pretty much absolutely control over the offense and not consider it a failure, but is so quick to point out Callahan's alleged 'failure' for a brief stint, with an interfering HC cry-baby. Callahan didn't fail with the Raiders and took that team both to the AFC championship and SB and had Gannon playing at an MVP level.

4. Jason BUILT that OL. It was Jason who brought Hudson Houck here from Miami and it was the same big; hefty lineman he played under and coached under his whole life. Jason operated under a man-scheme, not zone-blocking scheme and the only reason, Callahan ended up here was because of Houck retiring. It's clear Jason felt threatened and Wade Phillips wanted to to bring in Mike Solari way before they even want zone, so it was because of our red-headed clown that we wasted years in our trash OL. Jason had nothing to do with picks like Frederik, because Garrett and Stephen had Sharif Loyd on the board and ended being over-ruled. They had no idea for 3 months that Marinelli didn't like him and Floyd was a 3-4 guy and they already went 4-3.

5. The ONLY OL they drafted in intentionally as a whole was Smith, and that was because Jerry was looking for that left tackle to replace Flozell Adams, who went to the Steelers. And during the tenure of Jason controlling the offense with Hudson Houck, Dallas followed their traditional pattern that they still do, by filling holes with free agencies. This is why they went and got Leonard Davis and guys like Montrae Holland. Garrett had no vision in building this OL, particularly since he couldn't coach a run game to save his life. Even Wade was trying to get Dan Reeves here to baby-sit that clown.

6. YES, last year was an ABERRATION. Garrett has been here for over 8 years and so has is father and brother, Judd whose nor running the pro scouting department clown show at Valley Ranch. And it was an aberration because Tony Romo was healthy and Garrett was minimized in his role in the offense and as Jerry said, they'd have him walking around on defense. So basically your argument is that Garrett can only coach when the stars align and Romo doesn't get injured and so on... But the rest of his tenure is the aberration. And teams adjusted as well, stacking the lines particularly on first and forcing the Cowboys into second and third and longs, even with Romo. That's why he got injured again..

Comical, that your example of 'fine coaching' as proof of Garrett being a good coach is the biggest of example of him being removed from the coaching equation and as Jerry said in the off-season that year, his role would be ambiguous and Jason can succeed in that role. And then Romo was lost and we couldn't even win a game, because Jason was back and we had guys like Cassell and Weeden running his scheme.

Preach! Preach! You would think the last straw for the Jason Garrett apologists would be the 0-7 record without Romo this year. For those whose heads are thick as a brick....it was in plain sight to see. Especially HOW we lost. With an offense that for weeks at a time could not even score ONE TD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[visionary]

He and Garrett sure seem to pal around a lot... They've been together for a looooong time. Romo and Garrett only have nice things to say about each other-- and Romo is as "all in" with Garrett's "process" -- as Garrett is with Tony being his QB.

The question comes down to his health. This season is tough to analyze. He broke his collarbone on a tough hit that could have happened to any QB really. Then-- he came back too early to try and save our season and re-injured it.

By all accounts his back is better than ever-- and bones normally grow back stronger after they're broken. With a full offseason to recover-- I anticipate Romo will have a bounce back year next year. We need to definitely draft his successor and add a quality backup (could be Cassel if he plays well after getting more familiar with this system)-- but I think our best chance to win is to keep Tony in the same offense, and pour resources into fixing the defense and running game.

Unfortunately, as good as romo has been, his initial remarks ("if this is the worst that happens ....") may have been his truest reflection of his mindset

Content to be merely good and 'relevant'

 

[Hawkeye19]

Unfortunately, as good as romo has been, his initial remarks ("if this is the worst that happens ....") may have been his truest reflection of his mindset

Content to be merely good and 'relevant'

He's a pretty competitive guy-- I don't think Romo is "casually" playing professional football. He's dedicated. If he wasn't all in-- he wouldn't win a game with a punctured lung.

People question his heart b/c he wears his cap backwards, dated Jessica Simpson, went to Cabo, and has a sense of humor. Nothing wrong with having fun and working hard. They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Hawkeye19]

Romo put up numbers in Parcells offense. And Cassell and Weeden and even Kitna, put up garbage numbers in Garrett's. It's because of Romo that Garrett's offense put up numbers. Garrett's offense also dropped from 2nd in scoring when Sparano was running it to 18 in one season and consistently followed that trend and it was amongst the worst in red-zone scoring, the problem resurfacing once again this year when Garrett's coaching became 'influential' once again when Romo went out.

Name me a credible HC that hangs out with his players. As I said, those pictures you see are Garrett and Romo together as part of Garrett's program in the off-season. That's why guys like Witten and Murray also attend.

Not sure if you can definitively say that Romo is the reason Garrett's offense has "put up numbers". Kind of a "chicken or the egg" argument. I'm not a huge fan of Garrett's by any means-- so I don't have much of a dog in this fight. You don't like Garrett-- that's fine by me.

 

[khiladi]

Not sure if you can definitively say that Romo is the reason Garrett's offense has "put up numbers". Kind of a "chicken or the egg" argument. I'm not a huge fan of Garrett's by any means-- so I don't have much of a dog in this fight. You don't like Garrett-- that's fine by me.

You pretty much can when you've seen the numbers Kitna, Cassell, Weeden and guys like Brad Johnson put up in it..

 

[CF74]

Do people who support Garrett even watch games? What about our play gives you that warm fuzzy feeling that our head coach knows what he's doing and is in control?

who cares about marvin lewis, irrelevant

It's all in the process of how he claps his hands...

 

[Hawkeye19]

You pretty much can when you've seen the numbers Kitna, Cassell, Weeden and guys like Brad Johnson put up in it..

Kitna and Johnson were ancient when they played in it-- backups at best. They wouldn't make any system look good at that point in their careers.

Weeden? Seriously? The guy is just not an NFL caliber QB. It wouldn't matter what system he played in either. And Cassel. The guy didn't get training camp or preseason and was thrown into the fire as soon as Weeden was discovered to be exactly who everyone knew him to be. I imagine you'll see better play from Cassel down the stretch the more acclimated he gets to the offense-- but regardless, the QBs you hold up as proof that Romo makes the system-- are, in a word-- a joke.