George Zimmerman charged with 2nd degree murder of Trayvon Martin **Read Post #142**

[The30YardSlant]

so you are changing your argument to race played a factor, but that's ok?

No, I was responding to the righteous indignation Heisenberg had on the topic.

I don't know what Zimmerman was thinking, and regardless his reasoning for being susupicous shouldnt get him off the hook. There's a big difference between suspicion and acting on that suspicion with violence.

If Martin didnt attack him, he's guilty of something.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Unless Martin attacked him, which is alleged.

whose to say, besides Zimmerman, that Martin didn't feel threatened by Zimmerman? whose to say Martin wasn't just fighting back? whose to say Martin didn't try to run at some point and Zimmerman didn't chase him, start gettin his *** whipped and then decided to pull out his gun and shoot?

What we do know is before Martin was killed, Zimmerman called 911, was advised not to follow, said something along the lines of "they always get away" and followed him. Does that mean he's guilty, no, but it's clear that Zimmerman made a poor decision in following Martin like he's a cop or batman or something, and my point all along is with all these questions, it was irresponsibile for the police to not charge him.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Anybody can be racially biased, and you'd be surprised at the disdain blacks and hispanics have for each other in certain parts of this country. The Dallas area cops that I know including my brother in law indicate that a very large percentage of violent crimes in the area are between black and hispanic gangs.

That being said, what annoys me is that the media is trying SO hard to make the general population believe this was a white man shooting a black kid. Far fewer people would care (sadly enough) if Zimmerman were portrayed as hispanic.

I agree with that. I was just pointing out that Zimmerman was Hispanic and that he has worked with young black males as a mentor.

In addition to Martin being killed, that is the other tragic event in this mess. The media and a couple people with the word "reverend" in front of their names and a few of their support groups like the "black ***** cats" want a race war and they do everything they can to light that fuse. It has become a spectacle to watch these people act like they are on the side of righteousness and justice while out of the other side of their crooked mouths they are calling for riots and death to whites. It's all utter BS.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

whose to say, besides Zimmerman, that Martin didn't feel threatened by Zimmerman? whose to say Martin wasn't just fighting back? whose to say Martin didn't try to run at some point and Zimmerman didn't chase him, start gettin his *** whipped and then decided to pull out his gun and shoot?

What we do know is before Martin was killed, Zimmerman called 911, was advised not to follow, said something along the lines of "they always get away" and followed him. Does that mean he's guilty, no, but it's clear that Zimmerman made a poor decision in following Martin like he's a cop or batman or something, and my point all along is with all these questions, it was irresponsibile for the police to not charge him.

And THAT is why we need all the facts to come out before jumping to conclusions.

And the police couldn't charge him unless they had some evidence against him. He would at that point be a person of interest if there was a crime committed.

 

[The30YardSlant]

I agree with that. I was just pointing out that Zimmerman was Hispanic and that he has worked with young black males as a mentor.

In addition to Martin being killed, that is the other tragic event in this mess. The media and a couple people with the word "reverend" in front of their names and a few of their support groups like the "black ***** cats" want a race war and they do everything they can to light that fuse. It has become a spectacle to watch these people act like they are on the side of righteousness and justice while out of the other side of their crooked mouths they are calling for riots and death to whites. It's all utter BS.

It's dangerous is what it is. It promotes more violence and does nothing but set race relations further back.

 

[justbob]

It's dangerous is what it is. It promotes more violence and does nothing but set race relations further back.

Yes Sir --it is and does

 

[Cajuncowboy]

It's dangerous is what it is. It promotes more violence and does nothing but set race relations further back.

Well, that IS their goal after all.

 

[WoodysGirl]

It's dangerous is what it is. It promotes more violence and does nothing but set race relations further back.

I don't think it set it back, just another reminder that we're not as far along as we'd like to be.

Now that said, I'm past discussing his motives unless something more comes out. An arrest was made and now it's a matter of the legal system running its course.

And before anyone asks, I'll personally be satisfied regardless of the outcome.

 

[Ranched]

It's tragic for both sides. Until everything is put on the table, I just can't take sides.

 

[JonJon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding, all the court would need to do in a 2nd degree murder case is prove a non-premeditated murder was committed.

As Casmith07 pointed out, 2nd degree murder is:

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree

We already know that it was Zimmerman that pulled the trigger and killed Martin. Zimmerman already admitted to that, so there's not a lot of investigation that needs to go on there.

The burden, however, would be on the defense to prove that Zimmerman indeed acted in self defense and killed out of fear for his life. I'm not sure that would be such an easy task with the evidence that has been released thus far, seeing as how Martin was unarmed. This is where the case could ultimately wind up at, because there is no doubt that Zimmerman killed Martin, and I don't believe much time will be spent arguing that point.

 

[The30YardSlant]

I don't think it set it back, just another reminder that we're not as far along as we'd like to be.

I think we'd be a lot further along if people like Sharpton and Jackson just went away.

In 1960, the biggest problem with race relations was white racism most notably in the south. In 2012 I believe the much bigger problem to be certain members of the black community and certain politicians who insist on always bringing up the issue of race at every possible turn.

Like someone brought up in the other thread about this, nobody has ever said it better than Morgan Freeman did. The best way to rid the country of racism is to stop talking about it so damn much.

I agree though that his motives at this point matter little, all that matters is whether or not the shot that was fired was done so with the intent to kill Trayvon without cause.

 

[WoodysGirl]

Considering he is Hispanic and works with young black males I doubt that race was a factor.

Oh and here some news. Martin's mom said she thinks the whole thing was an accident and not murder.


Asked what she would like to ask to Zimmerman, Trayvon's mother, Sybrina Fulton, said on The Today Show that she wants an apology from him.

"I believe it was an accident. I believe it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back," Fulton said, revealing her opinion about what happened the night her 17-year-old son was shot to death. "I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...412_1_face-murder-charges-today-show-accident

Martin's Mom has been gracious throughout the whole process, IMO.

I think we'd be a lot further along if people like Sharpton and Jackson just went away.

In 1960, the biggest problem with race relations was white racism most notably in the south. In 2012 I believe the much bigger problem to be certain members of the black community and certain politicians who insist on always bringing up the issue of race at every possible turn.

Like someone brought up in the other thread about this, nobody has ever said it better than Morgan Freeman did. The best way to rid the country of racism is to stop talking about it so damn much.

I agree though that his motives at this point matter little, all that matters is whether or not the shot that was fired was done so with the intent to kill Trayvon without cause.

Sharpton and Jackson aren't near as relevant to the African-American community as a whole as some people seem to think.

They have their followers and ready access to the media, but people don't near look to them for leadership as much as you think.

Just me tho... But I'm all for not talking about racis. However, I am also for acknowledging cultural differences. There are common likes and dislikes because of the country we live in, but people have cultural differences just based on their backgrounds. It's not racism to know that certain group of people may like something different than what is considered the norm... or even that the group of people like something different, but still likes the norm.

Anyway, I'm done with that side of the Martin case...unless it's brought up during the trial. And if I'm him, I'd ask for trial by judge.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding, all the court would need to do in a 2nd degree murder case is prove a non-premeditated murder was committed.

Correct, but my issue is that casmith is playing this off as if proving 2nd degree murder is on par with proving shoplifting and speeding. There are many more factors that play into proving a potential murder like this. Zimmerman didnt hold up a convenience store and shoot the clerk, this isnt so cut and dry. Zimmerman did not commit an illegal act prior to the killing itself. The prosecution has to show that Zimmerman shot Trayvon unjustifiably and with malice intent, and I think it will be very tough to show that Zimmerman entered into any part of the sequence of events intending to kill Trayvon.

We already know that it was Zimmerman that pulled the trigger and killed Martin. Zimmerman already admitted to that, so there's not a lot of investigation that needs to go on there.

Considering the circumstances, that doesn't help the prosecution at all because that doesnt speak to the murder charge at all. In a strange way it could actually hurt them in the eyes of an unbiased jury, as proving intent to kill would be MUCH easier had he fled.

The burden, however, would be on the defense to prove that Zimmerman indeed acted in self defense and killed out of fear for his life. I'm not sure that would be such an easy task with the evidence that has been released thus far, seeing as how Martin was unarmed. This is where the case could ultimately wind up at, because there is no doubt that Zimmerman killed Martin, and I don't believe much time will be spent arguing that point.

Even if they can't prove self-defense, and they probably can't, the prosecution STILL has to show that he murdered Trayvon. Just because Zimmerman is guilty of a crime doesnt mean he can be convicted of murder.

It has to be a combination of NOT being self defense and maliciously shooting him. The jury could easily determine that it was not self-defense but that Zimmerman incorrectly perceived a threat and only became hostile at that point, which is NOT murder. Murder requires that the individual doing the killing have a malicious and depraved mindset.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Anybody can be racially biased, and you'd be surprised at the disdain blacks and hispanics have for each other in certain parts of this country. The Dallas area cops that I know including my brother in law indicate that a very large percentage of violent crimes in the area are between black and hispanic gangs.

That being said, what annoys me is that the media is trying SO hard to make the general population believe this was a white man shooting a black kid. Far fewer people would care (sadly enough) if Zimmerman were portrayed as hispanic.

True.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Martin's Mom has been gracious throughout the whole process, IMO.

While I agree, I also think her words ring slightly hollow if she doesn't plan on advocating for a not guilty verdict on the murder charge. If it was an accident then he is guilty of manslaughter and a murder conviction would unjustifiably put him away for a couple decades.

If he gets convicted, and she talks about how justice was served, her words now will mean nothing.

 

[cajuncocoa]

The burden, however, would be on the defense to prove that Zimmerman indeed acted in self defense and killed out of fear for his life. I'm not sure that would be such an easy task with the evidence that has been released thus far, seeing as how Martin was unarmed. This is where the case could ultimately wind up at, because there is no doubt that Zimmerman killed Martin, and I don't believe much time will be spent arguing that point.

One does not have to be "armed" to pose a threat to another person's life. There were claims that Martin was banging Zimmerman's head on the concrete. If true, that would be a life-threatening situation that may have caused Zimmerman to take desperate measures to defend himself.

 

[cajuncocoa]

While I agree, I also think her words ring slightly hollow if she doesn't plan on advocating for a not guilty verdict on the murder charge. If it was an accident then he is guilty of manslaughter and a murder conviction would unjustifiably put him away for a couple decades.

If he gets convicted, and she talks about how justice was served, her words now will mean nothing.

Also true.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Sharpton and Jackson aren't near as relevant to the African-American community as a whole as some people seem to think.

Between them and the other nuts like Farakhan and the black panthers and such they have incredible influence, especially with the young black males.

There is such a problem with young black males not having a father figure in their lives they are starving for someone to give them that attention. And these groups and people prey on them. And then they have the influence. And sadly, it's growing.

 

[JonJon]

Correct, but my issue is that casmith is playing this off as if proving 2nd degree murder is on par with proving shoplifting and speeding. There are many more factors that play into proving a potential murder like this. Zimmerman didnt hold up a convenience store and shoot the clerk, this isnt so cut and dry. Zimmerman did not commit an illegal act prior to the killing itself. The prosecution has to show that Zimmerman shot Trayvon unjustifiably and with malice intent, and I think it will be very tough to show that Zimmerman entered into any part of the sequence of events intending to kill Trayvon.

I see your point there and you are right in that this will not be a cut and dry case. Many factors will have to be considered. This will make the 911 calls and the testimonies of Martin's girlfriend even more crucial.

Considering the circumstances, that doesn't help the prosecution at all because that doesnt speak to the murder charge at all. In a strange way it could actually hurt them in the eyes of an unbiased jury, as proving intent to kill would be MUCH easier had he fled.

The only problem against him not fleeing is that it would make him look even more guilty if he did. He called the cops, so he already knew they would be there shortly. If the cops arrived and found a missing Zimmerman and a dead Martin, then there would be no grounds at all to claim self defense. Plus there are witnesses that saw him standing over the dead body at that point, so he had no choice but to stay.

Even if they can't prove self-defense, and they probably can't, the prosecution STILL has to show that he murdered Trayvon. Just because Zimmerman is guilty of a crime doesnt mean he can be convicted of murder.

It has to be a combination of NOT being self defense and maliciously shooting him. The jury could easily determine that it was not self-defense but that Zimmerman incorrectly perceived a threat and only became hostile at that point, which is NOT murder. Murder requires that the individual doing the killing have a malicious and depraved mindset.

I agree with this. Which is why I believe he will get a manslaughter charge at the very least. I don't think there is any way he walks free.

 

[JonJon]

Between them and the other nuts like Farakhan and the black panthers and such they have incredible influence, especially with the young black males.

There is such a problem with young black males not having a father figure in their lives they are starving for someone to give them that attention. And these groups and people prey on them. And then they have the influence. And sadly, it's growing.

Now you are starting to make generalized assumptions. Like Woodysgirl said, not as much influence as you would think. Most black youth pay little to no attention to those guys. I would even argue that among black youths, guys like Sharpton and Jackson are considered to be "a joke" nowadays. Now black males in their 40s-50s will have a totally different view of Sharpton and Jackson.