Has anyone been keeping up with the Zimmerman trial?

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MonsterD

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Looks like the majority of us believe it will be manslaughter, as do I. The way the trial has gone, it is hard for me to believe 2nd degree will stick, but the case is there that Zimmerman is part to blame, and Martin is also part too. My guess is voluntary manslaughter, although I have not seen much of this trial only updates on it.
 

iceberg

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He was scared, he was getting his but whipped after chasing a scared to death teenager...Manslaughter

how do you know he was scared to death?

assumptions like this is why i pretty much quit paying attention to the trial and side convos about it. people already have their mind made up and the trial has already taken place in the media.
 

Nirvana

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If Florida did not have the stand your ground law I think Zimmerman could have a verdict go against him, but I think he will be found not guilty. Emotions run high with some regarding this for sure.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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It's really hard to separate personal feelings from just factual evidence in situations like this. I'm listening to the statements of the prosecution and I have to say that I really feel like they have not proven their case. I question if they have even proven Manslaughter. I am listening to the prosecutor and he is saying to the Jury that they should not judge the girl (Martin's girlfriend) on how she sounded, past history or let what they saw be a determining factor in the case but rather, what she said. I'm thinking to myself, isn't that what they are asking everybody to do with George Zimmerman? Make a judgement on the basis of racial undertone that Zimmerman is supposed to have, consider the fact that Martin is 17? If Martin were 21 instead of 17, would this be viewed in the same light by people? That doesn't make sense to me. It's a contradiction and it only makes the prosecution look like it's reaching to me.

This is about reasonable doubt and I can see no way that anybody can not look at this and say that there is no reasonable doubt.

Will also say that this thing could come back as a verdict of guilty but I honestly don't see how the evidence supports that.

JMO
 

Hoofbite

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Following someone and not identifying oneself it not illegal and does not legally warrant a violent response.

If I was a juror, I would need the prosecution to prove that Zim did not feel his life was in danger and there is not enough evidence to do that.

I've seen people say this and I'm not sure that's the smartest route to take. It also seems like a crutch. Probably why I haven't really seen it play a role in addition to Zimmerman's written statement and reenactment both having him say that he got out of his car NOT to follow (clearly he did) but to look for a street sign because he couldn't remember the name of the street he was on.....one of only 3 streets in the gated community.

Supposedly the aspect of a "depraved mind' must be proven to get to 2nd degree.

Rational people don't randomly follow others simply because the law allows it, or at bare minimum fails to forbid it. Therefore, by admitting to following him because it's not illegal you're essentially admitting that he was behaving irrationally and that in itself makes the "depraved mind" aspect a whole lot easier to sell, IMO. At this point he can't really say he was following him because he's already vested too much into saying that he wasn't even though the 911 call makes it blatantly obvious that he was following him, and George even admits to as much while on the phone.

If however, he admits to following it pretty much leaves 1 of 2 options for his reasoning. Either he profiled Martin as a criminal (probably not the route he wants to take) or he didn't profile him and he was behaving in a manner that is entirely abnormal and completely irrational.

This aside from the fact that we generally don't need laws to strictly forbid acts that are in opposition to normal behavior or civility.
 

Hoofbite

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It's really hard to separate personal feelings from just factual evidence in situations like this. I'm listening to the statements of the prosecution and I have to say that I really feel like they have not proven their case. I question if they have even proven Manslaughter. I am listening to the prosecutor and he is saying to the Jury that they should not judge the girl (Martin's girlfriend) on how she sounded, past history or let what they saw be a determining factor in the case but rather, what she said. I'm thinking to myself, isn't that what they are asking everybody to do with George Zimmerman? Make a judgement on the basis of racial undertone that Zimmerman is supposed to have, consider the fact that Martin is 17? If Martin were 21 instead of 17, would this be viewed in the same light by people? That doesn't make sense to me. It's a contradiction and it only makes the prosecution look like it's reaching to me.

This is about reasonable doubt and I can see no way that anybody can not look at this and say that there is no reasonable doubt.

Will also say that this thing could come back as a verdict of guilty but I honestly don't see how the evidence supports that.

JMO

If you listen to Zimmerman's phone call and pair it with the reenactment video he made there's some pretty interesting inconsistencies.

On the phone call he clearly gets out of his truck to follow and even admits to doing so but in the reenactment he says that he got out to check the street sign. This is also in his written statement. Not to follow but to check the street sign because he couldn't remember the name of the street. This is 1 of 3 streets in the community he has lived in and at each end of the street there is an entrance to gated community. These are the only two entrances. He's lived there for like 2 years and drives on that street every time he enters or exits the community but he can't remember the name of the street?

He also says that the dispatcher had asked him to see where Trayvon was going which never happened.

He says Trayvon actually circled his truck which he made no mention of in the phone call, only saying "he's coming to check me out". This guy is so suspicious and even says Trayvon is on drugs, up to no good and everything else but he doesn't mention that he's circling his truck like a shark in the water? And if he was circling the truck, why didn't he just say that he was part of the neighborhood watch and wanted to check things out? He's in his car, has his gun, but can't initiate dialog?

The timing of the whole even is just incredibly blurry and begs serious questions as to what he was actually doing. He gets out of his truck and after about 12 to 13 seconds he's told not to follow. The call continues for almost another 2 minutes and he never makes it back to the truck. Then more time passes before even the first 911 call comes in and I think something like 3:30 minutes have passed before you would expect the fight to even start. So what was he doing in this time? How did he never make it back to the truck while on the phone and then he wasn't even halfway back when he was supposedly approached by Trayvon? The answer is pretty simple, he wasn't returning to his truck in that time. If he were, this story never happens because the distance he would have to travel is not great enough to take that long. There was a reporter who walked the distance from the street George was going to back to the truck while he was on camera and it took about 1 minute which still leaves far too much time that is unaccounted for.

Who knows what he was doing, he says he had decided to get an address from a house on the next street over but a minute and a half after he's told not to follow Trayvon the dispatcher asked him what the address of the house he was standing of front of was and he said that he didn't know. He didn't know because he was standing in the "cut-through". To top it off, he ends the phone call by asking for police to call him so he can tell them where he's at which is just an odd request from someone who would either be in their truck or at an address they were supposedly going to look for. This is a weird thing in itself, he sees Trayvon just kind of standing around and thinks it's suspicious but if he were to go across the street and get the address and wait there for police it wouldn't be suspicious to someone else who may have seen him just standing around? Ultimately he never gave any address which means his entire purpose for getting out of his truck to get an address is not only completely unsupported by him actually giving an address, it just makes absolute zero sense that he was actually seeking an address and never provided one, even when asked to provide one.

Ultimately I don't think anyone knows what happened from the time he got out of his truck. I think his versions differ by so much that his version of the story is questionable. We don't have a version from Trayvon. One thing I think is clear is that he wasn't returning to his truck. He most assuredly would have made it if that had been the case. That said, given the fact that he exited his vehicle to follow Trayvon and admitted this to the dispatcher and the fact that it's pretty obvious he was doing a little more than checking an address, I think the guy is at fault.

I wouldn't say 2nd degree murder because I don't think that's supported but manslaughter for sure. I think he got out of his truck to follow, disregarded the dispatcher saying not to follow and the proceeded to scour the area until the two of them crossed paths. What happened from there is only according to George's version which I think is either not entirely inclusive (at best) or deliberately altered to remove responsibility (at worst).
 

TheCount

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It's really hard to separate personal feelings from just factual evidence in situations like this. I'm listening to the statements of the prosecution and I have to say that I really feel like they have not proven their case. I question if they have even proven Manslaughter. I am listening to the prosecutor and he is saying to the Jury that they should not judge the girl (Martin's girlfriend) on how she sounded, past history or let what they saw be a determining factor in the case but rather, what she said. I'm thinking to myself, isn't that what they are asking everybody to do with George Zimmerman? Make a judgement on the basis of racial undertone that Zimmerman is supposed to have, consider the fact that Martin is 17? If Martin were 21 instead of 17, would this be viewed in the same light by people? That doesn't make sense to me. It's a contradiction and it only makes the prosecution look like it's reaching to me.

This is about reasonable doubt and I can see no way that anybody can not look at this and say that there is no reasonable doubt.

Will also say that this thing could come back as a verdict of guilty but I honestly don't see how the evidence supports that.

JMO

I think there's more than enough there to prove manslaughter, 2nd degree murder is a different matter.
 

Nightman

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I think there's more than enough there to prove manslaughter, 2nd degree murder is a different matter.

Manslaughter is a cop out that would get Zimmerman 25 years with no parole. It's either murder or self defense. The evidence does not come close to proving either murder or manslaughter. Zimmerman never pulled his gun, never threatened Martin, begged witnesses for help and only pulled his weapon as the last resort. Martin had no injuries besides the bullet wound and bruising on his knuckles. Zimmerman had his nose broken and was getting his head bashed in by a bigger, stronger person. Someone with depraved indifference wouldn't call 911 and wouldn't risk getting beaten to death or having their own firearm used against them. One severe head injury can cause permanent brain damage or death.
 

iceberg

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i'm amazed at the legal expertise from the general audience.
 

Thatkidbob

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Manslaughter is a cop out that would get Zimmerman 25 years with no parole. It's either murder or self defense. The evidence does not come close to proving either murder or manslaughter. Zimmerman never pulled his gun, never threatened Martin, begged witnesses for help and only pulled his weapon as the last resort. Martin had no injuries besides the bullet wound and bruising on his knuckles. Zimmerman had his nose broken and was getting his head bashed in by a bigger, stronger person. Someone with depraved indifference wouldn't call 911 and wouldn't risk getting beaten to death or having their own firearm used against them. One severe head injury can cause permanent brain damage or death.

Your post is factually wrong in regard to the injuries sustained by those involved in the altercation, and their relative size & strength.

Martin had a single abrasion on his non-dominant hand.
Zimmerman had no defensive injuries, none of what you would typically see in a struggle like the one he describes.
Zimmerman was not beaten by a bigger, stronger person: Martin was a skinny HS football player at 5'11 and 158lbs. Zimmerman was a 5'8 195lb ex bouncer.

The rest of your post is speculation presented as fact.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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If you listen to Zimmerman's phone call and pair it with the reenactment video he made there's some pretty interesting inconsistencies.

On the phone call he clearly gets out of his truck to follow and even admits to doing so but in the reenactment he says that he got out to check the street sign. This is also in his written statement. Not to follow but to check the street sign because he couldn't remember the name of the street. This is 1 of 3 streets in the community he has lived in and at each end of the street there is an entrance to gated community. These are the only two entrances. He's lived there for like 2 years and drives on that street every time he enters or exits the community but he can't remember the name of the street?

He also says that the dispatcher had asked him to see where Trayvon was going which never happened.

He says Trayvon actually circled his truck which he made no mention of in the phone call, only saying "he's coming to check me out". This guy is so suspicious and even says Trayvon is on drugs, up to no good and everything else but he doesn't mention that he's circling his truck like a shark in the water? And if he was circling the truck, why didn't he just say that he was part of the neighborhood watch and wanted to check things out? He's in his car, has his gun, but can't initiate dialog?

The timing of the whole even is just incredibly blurry and begs serious questions as to what he was actually doing. He gets out of his truck and after about 12 to 13 seconds he's told not to follow. The call continues for almost another 2 minutes and he never makes it back to the truck. Then more time passes before even the first 911 call comes in and I think something like 3:30 minutes have passed before you would expect the fight to even start. So what was he doing in this time? How did he never make it back to the truck while on the phone and then he wasn't even halfway back when he was supposedly approached by Trayvon? The answer is pretty simple, he wasn't returning to his truck in that time. If he were, this story never happens because the distance he would have to travel is not great enough to take that long. There was a reporter who walked the distance from the street George was going to back to the truck while he was on camera and it took about 1 minute which still leaves far too much time that is unaccounted for.

Who knows what he was doing, he says he had decided to get an address from a house on the next street over but a minute and a half after he's told not to follow Trayvon the dispatcher asked him what the address of the house he was standing of front of was and he said that he didn't know. He didn't know because he was standing in the "cut-through". To top it off, he ends the phone call by asking for police to call him so he can tell them where he's at which is just an odd request from someone who would either be in their truck or at an address they were supposedly going to look for. This is a weird thing in itself, he sees Trayvon just kind of standing around and thinks it's suspicious but if he were to go across the street and get the address and wait there for police it wouldn't be suspicious to someone else who may have seen him just standing around? Ultimately he never gave any address which means his entire purpose for getting out of his truck to get an address is not only completely unsupported by him actually giving an address, it just makes absolute zero sense that he was actually seeking an address and never provided one, even when asked to provide one.

Ultimately I don't think anyone knows what happened from the time he got out of his truck. I think his versions differ by so much that his version of the story is questionable. We don't have a version from Trayvon. One thing I think is clear is that he wasn't returning to his truck. He most assuredly would have made it if that had been the case. That said, given the fact that he exited his vehicle to follow Trayvon and admitted this to the dispatcher and the fact that it's pretty obvious he was doing a little more than checking an address, I think the guy is at fault.

I wouldn't say 2nd degree murder because I don't think that's supported but manslaughter for sure. I think he got out of his truck to follow, disregarded the dispatcher saying not to follow and the proceeded to scour the area until the two of them crossed paths. What happened from there is only according to George's version which I think is either not entirely inclusive (at best) or deliberately altered to remove responsibility (at worst).

Perhaps, but after reading your post, I'm still not sure what law was broken by following or getting out of his truck. Not saying it was the right thing to do but none of that is illegal.
 

TheCount

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Manslaughter is a cop out that would get Zimmerman 25 years with no parole. It's either murder or self defense. The evidence does not come close to proving either murder or manslaughter. Zimmerman never pulled his gun, never threatened Martin, begged witnesses for help and only pulled his weapon as the last resort. Martin had no injuries besides the bullet wound and bruising on his knuckles. Zimmerman had his nose broken and was getting his head bashed in by a bigger, stronger person. Someone with depraved indifference wouldn't call 911 and wouldn't risk getting beaten to death or having their own firearm used against them. One severe head injury can cause permanent brain damage or death.

I'm not going to argue the case with you, that's what the trial is for. I stated my opinion, that's it. I think there is enough for a manslaughter conviction and you don't, that's fine.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I think there's more than enough there to prove manslaughter, 2nd degree murder is a different matter.

I just haven't seen it Count. In order to convict on Manslaughter, you would have to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not believe he was in danger of bodily harm. I see no way to prove that, under the circumstances.
 

TheCount

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I just haven't seen it Count. In order to convict on Manslaughter, you would have to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not believe he was in danger of bodily harm. I see no way to prove that, under the circumstances.

I'm not lawyer, but I'm not sure that's required. A provoked murder can still be considered manslaughter, I'm not sure the killer has to be under the impression they are under no imminent threat otherwise. If that were the case then one person in a bar fight could just pull out a weapon and kill the other with no legal recourse.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I'm not lawyer, but I'm not sure that's required. A provoked murder can still be considered manslaughter, I'm not sure the killer has to be under the impression they are under no imminent threat otherwise. If that were the case then one person in a bar fight could just pull out a weapon and kill the other with no legal recourse.

You can't do that because it is illegal to carry a firearm into a bar but in Florida, you actually could do what you describe above. They were discussing this yesterday. For example, a person could walk down the street, start a fight with another person and if that other person started to whale on the person who started the altercation, that person could actually pull out a gun and shoot the man who was originally accosted, under Florida Law.

Not sure if what I wrote is understandable or not but bottom line, under Florida Law, what you say is apparently legal.
 

TheCount

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You can't do that because it is illegal to carry a firearm into a bar but in Florida, you actually could do what you describe above. They were discussing this yesterday. For example, a person could walk down the street, start a fight with another person and if that other person started to whale on the person who started the altercation, that person could actually pull out a gun and shoot the man who was originally accosted, under Florida Law.

Not sure if what I wrote is understandable or not but bottom line, under Florida Law, what you say is apparently legal.

I guess that depends on whether you consider a bar fight to be a legal activity. To my understanding Zimmerman has not yet asked for immunity under Stand your Ground anyway, so it's not yet in play. As it stands, they are asking the jury to weigh the case in exclusion of that law.

Stand your Ground is a bigger discussion in a lot of ways. It makes Florida seem like the Wild West, especially since there's no consistent interpretation of the law.
 

Nirvana

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I guess that depends on whether you consider a bar fight to be a legal activity. To my understanding Zimmerman has not yet asked for immunity under Stand your Ground anyway, so it's not yet in play. As it stands, they are asking the jury to weigh the case in exclusion of that law.

Stand your Ground is a bigger discussion in a lot of ways. It makes Florida seem like the Wild West, especially since there's no consistent interpretation of the law.

The pre-trial hearing for Stand Your Ground immunity was waived, but the law is still applicable to the trial and is in play.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/30/justice/florida-zimmerman-defense
 

Nightman

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Your post is factually wrong in regard to the injuries sustained by those involved in the altercation, and their relative size & strength.

Martin had a single abrasion on his non-dominant hand.
Zimmerman had no defensive injuries, none of what you would typically see in a struggle like the one he describes.
Zimmerman was not beaten by a bigger, stronger person: Martin was a skinny HS football player at 5'11 and 158lbs. Zimmerman was a 5'8 195lb ex bouncer.

The rest of your post is speculation presented as fact.

There is nothing factually wrong. Trayvon was an experienced fighter and was bigger than Zimmerman as far as height and reach and clearly used his size as the leverage to control the brawl. He was obviously winning the fight as he had no injuries and Zimmerman was a bloody mess. I don't know what you mean by defensive wounds. It wasn't a knife fight. The actual wounds were to Zimmerman's nose, face and head. Those were real and significant. There is not one piece of evidence that Zimmerman ever struck Martin even once. You are allowed self defense by law even if you initiated the confrontation. Martin was not allowed to beat Zimmerman to death because he didn't like him following him or harassing him, if you believed that even happened.
 
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