How long until Belichick is considered the greatest ever?

[Rogah]

You wouldn't?

But you were ok with having players who cheated on their wives with strippers, snorted coke, and stabbed team mates with scissors?

So they can do all these immoral and illegal activities and you're ok with it, and loved the winning, but by God if they cross that line and cheat by video taping signals that's it! You're done!


LOL!

Please.

+1. I mean, seriously. I love the Cowboys and I like and respect the Patriots. The whole "spygate" thing was the most blown out of proportion non-issue in the history of football. If it was any other team, no one would have cared.

Contrary to the (debunked) rumors, the Patriots didn't video other teams' practices, which I would indeed consider an outrage. What you had was a stadium with 70,000 people in it, about a dozen CBS cameras, about another dozen NFL cameras (NFL films, coaches films, etc, etc) and the Patriots, who are allowed to film the game, doing so from a spot on the sidelines which was technically illegal. This wasn't some spy infiltrating secret enemy practices. This was something where, if he had been 50 feet to the left of where he was, would have been perfectly legal.

Anything else is just the haters showing how jealous they are. I would do anything for Dallas to perform over the next 10 years the way New England did over the past 10 years, even if it came with the most overblown, non-issue controversy with it.

 

[Rogah]

Jimmy Johnson DID NOT admit to breaking a rule he was warned about. I am disappointed that Jimmy Johnson had behavior similar to Belicheck.

So he broke the exact same rule, but since he didn't get a "warning" about it in advance, what he did was OK but what Belichick did makes him the spawn of satan.

Do you know how ridiculous you sound?!?

 

[yimyammer]

So he broke the exact same rule, but since he didn't get a "warning" about it in advance, what he did was OK but what Belichick did makes him the spawn of satan.

Do you know how ridiculous you sound?!?

:laugh1: No kidding, it must be tough to keep ones balance on top of that high horse

 

[nathanlt]

So he broke the exact same rule, but since he didn't get a "warning" about it in advance, what he did was OK but what Belichick did makes him the spawn of satan.

Do you know how ridiculous you sound?!?

Legal spying, I wouldn't call it ethical, though. It was within the rules, and as I've said before, it is disappointing that Jimmy Johnson did it. Better NFL leadership would have drummed out athletes and coaches who cheat. It is a privilege to play a game as your "job". People who intentionally defy the rules should be forced out of the league.

I find no evidence that the rule was even in place before 2006.

An ESPN story from 2007

Legal spying -- not videotaping -- widespread in NFL

The NFL is full of legal spy tactics, but sources say only the Patriots are known to have used illegal videotaping procedures.

 

[Rogah]

Legal spying, I wouldn't call it ethical, though. It was within the rules, and as I've said before, it is disappointing that Jimmy Johnson did it. Better NFL leadership would have drummed out athletes and coaches who cheat. It is a privilege to play a game as your "job". People who intentionally defy the rules should be forced out of the league.

I find no evidence that the rule was even in place before 2006.

An ESPN story from 2007

Legal spying -- not videotaping -- widespread in NFL

The NFL is full of legal spy tactics, but sources say only the Patriots are known to have used illegal videotaping procedures.

You're now using BSPN to back up your point? That pretty much says more about the bankrupcy of your contentions than I ever could.

 

[nathanlt]

You're now using BSPN to back up your point? That pretty much says more about the bankrupcy of your contentions than I ever could.

No, there was no such rule against videotaping before 2006.

I hope you aren't a coach or mentor of any kind, because you have no regard for playing a sport by the rules. People need to put integrity above winning!

C'mon!

 

[Rogah]

No, there was no such rule against videotaping before 2006.

Do you have a cource to back up that claim? I know there was a memo relased that year discussing the matter, but I see no evidence that the rule wasn't implemented until then.

I hope you aren't a coach or mentor of any kind, because you have no regard for playing a sport by the rules. People need to put integrity above winning!

And I hope you're not a teacher because I would hate to have someone filled with so much hate and jealousy instructing children. Where's your sanctimonious outrage for offenses committed by other teams? This is the most overblown story in the history of the NFL. Are you as upset with baseball players who have cheated? Teams caught circumventing the salary cap? Colleges that have recruiting violations?

If you held every team to the same standard as the Patriots, you would have to hate every team in major pro and college sports.

 

[nathanlt]

Do you have a cource to back up that claim? I know there was a memo relased that year discussing the matter, but I see no evidence that the rule wasn't implemented until then.
And I hope you're not a teacher because I would hate to have someone filled with so much hate and jealousy instructing children. Where's your sanctimonious outrage for offenses committed by other teams? This is the most overblown story in the history of the NFL. Are you as upset with baseball players who have cheated? Teams caught circumventing the salary cap? Colleges that have recruiting violations?

If you held every team to the same standard as the Patriots, you would have to hate every team in major pro and college sports.

You don't have respect for rules. I do. They protect and set boundaries for all concerned. They keep players from damaging themselves, (harmful drug use) it keeps one team from defrauding the rest of the league with an excessive advantage.

Yes, I am upset that baseball players cheat (if you've noticed my Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire references in this thread) Colleges that cheat deserve punishment.

Breaking rules shows a lack of confidence in your own natural abilities, and shows a disrespect for others who have agreed to follow the rules.

Cheating, whether throwing a game for gambling purposes (personal financial gain), or paying off referees, stealing game plans, sending a hitman to take someone's knee out in ice skating, it's all the same! Cheaters have NO RESPECT FOR THE GAME. They also don't know what satisfaction comes with winning with your natural skill.

You need to think for a moment if none of that bothers you.

 

[Rogah]

Cheating, whether throwing a game for gambling purposes (personal financial gain), or paying off referees, stealing game plans, sending a hitman to take someone's knee out in ice skating, it's all the same! Cheaters have NO RESPECT FOR THE GAME. They also don't know what satisfaction comes with winning with your natural skill.

You need to think for a moment if none of that bothers you.

And since you are feebly equating a video camera 50 feet out of position as being the same as paying off a referee or taking someone's knee out, then you need to sit down and do some thinking of your own - and for more than just a moment.

Your position is a fallacy at its highest. It is beyond absurd to suggest, as you have, that "it's all the same." Clearly there are some sins which are unforgiveable and some which are just silly little technicalities, easily dismissed. To equate having a camera 50 feet out of position as being the same as sending a hitman after one's opponent is sheer idiocy.

 

[Insomniac]

Whuh huh? Chuck Noll and Don Shula each had Hall of Fame quarterbacks playing for them. In fact, Shula had 2 HoF QBs playing for him in Miami and failed to win a single title with one of them. Noll is a great example of a HC who was pretty darn mediocre in those years where he didn't have his great, Hall of Fame QB playing for him.

And it's ironic you mention Bill Parcells, the most overrated coach of all time, who never won a single playoff game in his career without Bill Belichick on his staff.

Before Shula coached in Miami he was the coach of the Baltimore Colts and had Johnny Unitas for a QB. He didn't win a title with him either.

 

[Insomniac]

And Belichick 'the Head Coach' has never won a playoff game without Tom Brady as his starter at QB. So what? I don't understand the need to elevate the Hoodie via discounting the career of his mentor, the Tuna.

Belichick's Browns team won a playoff game against the Parcells' Patriots in 1994 with Vinne T at QB.

 

[nathanlt]

And since you are feebly equating a video camera 50 feet out of position as being the same as paying off a referee or taking someone's knee out, then you need to sit down and do some thinking of your own - and for more than just a moment.

Your position is a fallacy at its highest. It is beyond absurd to suggest, as you have, that "it's all the same." Clearly there are some sins which are unforgiveable and some which are just silly little technicalities, easily dismissed. To equate having a camera 50 feet out of position as being the same as sending a hitman after one's opponent is sheer idiocy.

Just let it go, and buy yourself some Patriots season tickets already, change your avatar to Belichek, for pete's sake.

I'm tired of you rationalizing it.

 

[Rogah]

Just let it go, and buy yourself some Patriots season tickets already, change your avatar to Belichek, for pete's sake.

I'm tired of you rationalizing it.

That's not as stupid as comparing a camera 50 feet out of position to paying off refs and hiring hitmen. Your rationale is poor and your comparisons are beyond absurd.

 

[nathanlt]

That's not as stupid as comparing a camera 50 feet out of position to paying off refs and hiring hitmen. Your rationale is poor and your comparisons are beyond absurd.

50 feet? So it wasn't even close. It's nice the way you pulled 50 feet out of the air like that, there's no source saying that the camera was 50 feet out position either.

NFL rules state "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." They also say all video for coaching purposes must be shot from locations "enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

If you drive even 10 feet to the left on a two way highway, I'd hope the cops catch you before you'd injure yourself.

Following rules sometimes protects your life, and in sports, keeps your honor intact.

Deliberately breaking rules in sports reveals a lack of character, and a lack of confidence in your abilities. It also shows a great disrespect to those who play with natural skill.

 

[Rogah]

Deliberately breaking rules in sports reveals a lack of character, and a lack of confidence in your abilities. It also shows a great disrespect to those who play with natural skill.

Yup, sure thing buddy. Now please explain to us all once again how having a camera 50 feet out of position is the exact same as sending a hitman to break your opponent's knee.

 

[nathanlt]

Yup, sure thing buddy. Now please explain to us all once again how having a camera 50 feet out of position is the exact same as sending a hitman to break your opponent's knee.

You (not me) have proposed that 50 feet out of position was the only issue with the videotaping, there's no evidence to support that. The illegal videotaping is the issue, and there were many more stipulations besides the position of the camera.

Even if 50 feet out of position claim is accurate, 50 feet has missed the mark considerably. Do you start high fiving and expecting 6 points when your Patriots approach the 15 yard line? I can see you now... "C'mon ref!! He's only 50 feet short of the goal line, just give him the touchdown!"

The videotaping of signals is an attempt to fix the game in your teams favor to win. So is bashing your opponents knee. The motivation is to get an advantage for yourself outside of the rules. That is the clear connection, and even with your rationalization, you cannot deny that.

I never claimed they were the exact same thing (strawman argument) because one brings criminal liability and the other doesn't. But they both originate from the willingness to cheat. One method chooses to break more rules than the other. However, they both tarnish the reputation of the ones who do it.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

That he can do it without Brady to me.

Why? Did Walsh feel the need to prove he could do it without Montana?


Noll without Bradshaw?


Again why does doing it without Brady even have to factor in for him personally? I'm sure he could care less what some random fans of others teams think about his coaching with or without Tom Brady.

 

[Rogah]

I never claimed they were the exact same thing (strawman argument)

Uh actually yeah you did. In post #228 you wrote:

"Cheating, whether throwing a game for gambling purposes (personal financial gain), or paying off referees, stealing game plans, sending a hitman to take someone's knee out in ice skating, it's all the same!"

Now if you want to retract that statement, I can't say I blame you. Because, as written, it's a really stupid thing to say.

 

[nathanlt]

Uh actually yeah you did. In post #228 you wrote:

"Cheating, whether throwing a game for gambling purposes (personal financial gain), or paying off referees, stealing game plans, sending a hitman to take someone's knee out in ice skating, it's all the same!"

Now if you want to retract that statement, I can't say I blame you. Because, as written, it's a really stupid thing to say.

NO, I do not retract that. Cheating is all the same in the sense that it seeks an advantage outside of the rules.

The only difference is which rules end up being deliberately broken because of the attitude that rules don't apply.

 

[Rogah]

NO, I do not retract that. Cheating is all the same in the sense that it seeks an advantage outside of the rules.

Well I gave you a chance to retract it because it's a stupid statement but if that's your position, so be it. Of course, saying a camera 50 feet out of position in a game witnessed by millions of people is as heinous of a violation of the rules as sending a hitman to whack your opponent's knee makes you look pretty foolish.