I honestly don't get the Zeke and Amari hate

TheMarathonContinues

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That's a nebulous argument - what Elliott means to the franchise.

His value to the franchise at this point making that kind of money is to be a game changing TB. A guy who is a threat every time he puts the ball in his hands. Do you honestly believe he's that kind of guy?
In hindsight? No, I don't. Last year when they re-signed him? I did think he was. I thought he was arguably our best player on the team. I would've re-signed him as well. I would've been wrong.

But like I said earlier....the mistake wasn't re-signing Zeke. The mistake was drafting him with the 4th overall pick because in order to get value for him you were going to have to overpay him. And we all know that mistake was made because they wanted to extend Romo's prime which didn't happen.
 

LACowboysFan1

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his horrible fumbling problems is obviously not matching his elite status

Horrible, eh?

Well let's see, 6 for the year. Awful! You do realize he had 5 in the first 6 games, but only 1 in the last 7 games?

Yeah he had a problem, but he has apparently fixed it. But I guess you just love to pick out the bad things and ignore the good things.

How about praising Zeke for handling the problem? If nothing else?
 

jjktkk

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Because he hasnt played good with 10 carries a game. Hes not a few carries a game back.
Still dont see how that makes him unmotivated.

Pollard has 3 good runs lets not act like hes kamara out there.
Zeke is a more talented rb than Pollard. But because of his status as a team leader, and being the 2nd highest paid rb in the league, his fumbling problem is a huge issue. Elite, NFL, rbs shouldn't have outrageous fumbling problems.
 

Sydla

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In hindsight? No, I don't. Last year when they re-signed him? I did think he was. I thought he was arguably our best player on the team. I would've re-signed him as well. I would've been wrong.

But like I said earlier....the mistake wasn't re-signing Zeke. The mistake was drafting him with the 4th overall pick because in order to get value for him you were going to have to overpay him. And we all know that mistake was made because they wanted to extend Romo's prime which didn't happen.

I guess that's where we diverge. He was a good TB when we signed him but I didn't think he was the same guy we saw in 2016 that was a threat every time he touched the ball. By his contract resigning, he just was a good, grind it out TB that could get you tough yards. I didn't think you should pay for that kind of TB.
 

jjktkk

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Horrible, eh?

Well let's see, 6 for the year. Awful! You do realize he had 5 in the first 6 games, but only 1 in the last 7 games?

Yeah he had a problem, but he has apparently fixed it. But I guess you just love to pick out the bad things and ignore the good things.

How about praising Zeke for handling the problem? If nothing else?
Zeke was benched in the Cardinal's game because of his fumbling problem. Think about that.
 

BigD_95

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Amari Cooper is about 100 yards away from breaking 1,000 yards this season with the majority of it has been from bums behind centers. If he crosses that threshold, he would've crossed it for the last 5 out of 6 years as a starter in the NFL. The only time he didn't do so, he was hurt. Dude has more than earned his money and will be just as good going forward with Dak.

Zeke-I somewhat understand. However, Zeke is playing behind a line that no longer has ANY of his starters. Yesterday was also a prime example of Moore abandoning the run because we were done. This is what happens when you have a poor defense, you have to abandon your winning formula. Without his starting qb, and his offensive line, Zeke is about 200 yards away from getting over 1k and is averaging about 4 yards a carry. I thought he looked very good yesterday. My only issue with him this year has been the fumbles but i feel that's him trying to do too much because the talent around him is very good.

I hope the front office doesn't take the cheese that some fans are trying to sell. Fix this defense, protect your quarterback with a good line and everything else will fall in line.


I think it is very unfair to lump Cooper with Zeke.

Cooper is worth every penny. Zeke not so much.
 

blueblood70

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Good stuff.

What Zeke needs is to get in extremely good shape and stop the weird stuff and get back to being the grinder that he is. Basically, Zeke has a very good skillset, but not a dominant one. That's why when he's just slightly out of shape, he's just OK. His strength is his burst when he gets the ball, but the burst comes down a bit unless he's in tiptop shape.

hes never been out of shape hes been used more this season than any time in years past , far too many plays on the field as blocker, decoy pass routes, and actual receptions..not even close..he dealt with Hammy, now calf and yet still goes out and plays..the excuse stops at bad OL, no pass threat, and plays from behind all game plus OC who isnt creative in Run schemes..

he will never be 2016 zeke because the DC were agreat team with the best OL 13-3 the Team has gone down since 2016 with the Ol and defense all getting worse..its obvious why zeke has declined and its far from being out of shape or declining. Sure hes not the same, has 300 plus more carries then henry in the same time frame and now being used lie FB most of the game..sad but its true..
emmitt freaking smith had only one season above 5YPC ,7 at 4YPC only 3 around 4.5-4.9

so ES the all time NFL HOF back also a volume back ,so not a lot of burst can have SEVEN(7) seasons under 4YPC also being the highest paid back who also held out twice for bigger deals can?

Zekes game is not fast wiggle explosiveness although he had some of it for little while its like ES can carry the load 30 times game if needed but this OC since 2019 doesnt stick to run game long enough to win TOP, help the defense etc etc

hes now 3rd all time in less then 5 seasons as DC RB 3rd in the history since 1960 in less then 5 years..

so much disrespect comes from his early infractions off field, his hold out and his contract..fans made up their minds to hold him and his stats to an unfair level under a microscope and wont let up enough to see hes one of the best to ever suit op for the DC as RB in rich history of RBs..

we cant go back and time and change where he was drafted or what he was paid and that goes hand in hand, he was kept dud to his draft slot and the fact he could have had 3 straight Rushing titles if not for the undue unfair suspension, if you have 3 great years like that and were picked high, well typically you get paid

again we cant erase that as fans but we can stop hating on him because you dont like the guy..hes done some great tings in short time..
 

LACowboysFan1

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Even if one concedes Elliott is the better player (which he is, obviously) the Cowboys aren't getting the corresponding level of production from Elliott compared to Pollard when you factor in playing time, cap hit, etc.

That's the point. You guys simply just want to bury your heads in the sand here on Elliott thinking he's some elite, game changing back being let down by everyone around him.

Since there's not much Dallas can do about the cap hit Elliot has, why even bring that up? If a player is playing badly does that mean you keep him, just pay him less money? What he gets paid has zero bearing on how he plays, the money's there one way or the other. So what do fans want to do? Sit him? That's great, let's waste 15 million dollars this year because he's not tearing the league apart.

As far as playing time goes, whether the coaches have listened to fans, or whatever, the fact is Pollard has gotten more playing time recently. In his first 5 games this season he had 13 carries. The last 5 games, 37 carries, nearly 3 times as many. But in his last 3 games, when teams could assume he'd get more carries, his ypc has been 3.00, 2.75 and 3.55. His first 3 games were he had 2 games with over 5 ypc. Think teams now don't game plan a bit more for Pollard now than earlier? And maybe he's not better than Zeke, if he was, then why, when he does play more, does he and the team's running game not improve greatly?

Elliot's ypc is certainly not a lot better, being 3.20, 4.28 and 4.00. But it is better.

Pollard does have value, just look at the 2 long kick returns. That's great. And no doubt he is quicker, as seen in the td in this last game. Clearly he can help the offense if used properly, and I'm not saying that he is being used properly, doesn't look that way to me.

But if you're talking running the football, Elliot is clearly still the better choice, and that's not even factoring in things like blocking, which at 209 lbs. vs Elliot at 228 lbs is not something you want Pollard to do. With the o-line not at full strength, you need all the blocking help you can get to keep your backup qb playing.

We all get it, Zeke isn't doing what he did in 2016, but that's THIS year. Last year he had 1,357 yards, 12 rushing tds and a 4.5 ypc. THAT'S EXCELLENT.

As far as burying your head in the sand, taking this one year and ignoring the previous years is exactly the same, some act like 2016-2019 never happened. Can't we at least give Elliot next year to "right the ship", with a full (probably) off season program, something other than a patchwork offensive line and maybe some defensive help to give the offense better field position? And so what if he does indeed need a very good offensive line to be really great, should the Cowboys not try to do that? Or should they try to get a back like Earl Campbell, great for a few years then get reduced to shell of himself due to being beat to death trying to run the ball 30 times a game? If Elliot is really good, with a very good offensive line we could see a return to the 2016 Elliot, and wouldn't that be a great thing? In other words, have a good line AND a great back?

I know, I'm wasting my time, nobody is going to change their mind, unless Zeke gives back 1/2 of his salary he'll never get any respect, and my friends, that's NOT happening....
 

JD_KaPow

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right same OL same carries

zeke 12-48 long 24

ollard 11-38 long 11

More burst =less yards, less YPC, and not having the longest run..

I like pollard solid backup and cage of pace back , hes no starter and zeks sufferings from bad team in a bad year..the fumbles were unacceptable but the decline is being far over blown..pollards not better and may never be..
Nobody's saying Pollard is better. But this is a really silly argument. If you want to use those kinds of numbers, we can look at the whole season and see that Pollard gains over half-a-yard more per carry and has the longest run. Oh, and he hasn't fumbled either.

Yes, Zeke's numbers are depressed in part because of line issues this year. But his overall career arc looks very much like a typical RB, which suggests he'll be done as a useful player in about 3 years. Personally, I think he's already done as anything resembling an elite player, but I allow that I could be wrong about that. He hasn't broken big plays in years and he brings nothing in the passing game. He's durable, he does a good job of not losing yardage, and he's a good blocker. He's a perfectly fine RB, but that's really all I see at this point.

Zeke's contract is a nightmare for this team, and it's only going to look worse with each passing year.
 

charron

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While I don't disagree that the WR position is the strength of this team since about 8 minutes left in game 5 we have not had a QB who can just sling it 50 times and have a prayer of winning. Even that guy was in peril of losing every game even though he was setting NFL records in the process. The simple fact of the matter is that if you go to the line and the defense knows all you're going to do is drop back and throw it you better have a hall of fame QB back there behind a hall of fame offensive line or you're going to get the QB killed and your team slaughtered on the scoreboard. You say running on first down has not been working.. Zeke's average on 1st down this year is 4.2 yards. Last year it was 4.5 yards. Sorry but that absolutely IS working. In both cases it gets you to 2nd and 6 or less with the clock still running. Which is exactly where you want to be. On second down his average last year was 4.6 .. meaning if you ran him again you had 3rd and 1 or 2 .. with the clock running. This year he has dropped to 3.7 on 2nd down.. But put that with the average first down run and you still have 3rd and 2 or 3. Which every coach in the league would be happy to have. Our problem is we don't do that very often. We very rarely run the ball on back to back plays. Moore can't help himself. As soon as he gets the obligatory first down run out of the way he shifts into 5 wide. An incomplete pass stops the clock and you end up punting without eating any clock and turning the game over to the worst defense in franchise history. THAT my friend is asinine. You don't run the ball to lean on the defense.. You run to protect it.


Your making up scenarios to backup your thoughts, bravo. I get it, I loved 2016, 2017, 2018 when we were a really good running team it helps so much more than passing. But that is not who this team is anymore, this team has to pass more to be efficient. I haven't looked at the data so I wasn't referring not to run on 1st downs just we sometimes run too much when it is not working. The last few years we don't start moving the ball and scoring untill we open up the pass a little bit more, hence the slow starts.

Here is Zekes runs in order: Zeke 2, 2, 5, 3 -Pollard came in and got -1, 5yards, 0 on his 1st 3 carries, Zeke 5 yards, 1 yard end of the 1st half. You can't tell me running like this is sustainable and will help us win games vs good teams. We played the lowly bengals and it wasn't for 3 fumble recoveries giving us short fields we might have scored less than 20 points against them. But to my point Moore had to call pass plays to move the ball, not cause we were behind but because our poor running demanded it.
 

blueblood70

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Nobody's saying Pollard is better. But this is a really silly argument. If you want to use those kinds of numbers, we can look at the whole season and see that Pollard gains over half-a-yard more per carry and has the longest run. Oh, and he hasn't fumbled either.

Yes, Zeke's numbers are depressed in part because of line issues this year. But his overall career arc looks very much like a typical RB, which suggests he'll be done as a useful player in about 3 years. Personally, I think he's already done as anything resembling an elite player, but I allow that I could be wrong about that. He hasn't broken big plays in years and he brings nothing in the passing game. He's durable, he does a good job of not losing yardage, and he's a good blocker. He's a perfectly fine RB, but that's really all I see at this point.

Zeke's contract is a nightmare for this team, and it's only going to look worse with each passing year.
disagree and zeke had 2 bad games of fumbles equaling 4 of the 5 that means he had 10 games with no fumbles, not making excuses as it was unacceptable but it does happen..Murray had more in his record breaking season in success and being the all time fumbler..

Pollard fumbled last year in critical drive in the MN game..that was when we were trying to win a not in lost season..that was a huge fumble..the cost us the game type..

its been bad year all around and sorry but this isnt a zeke issue and JJ has plenty of cap money to not have this be catastrophic ok Drama Queen:facepalm::muttley:

..it ill not change thing going forward..thats a myth caps are easily maneuvered to go after whomever you want..you think Daks making 32mil for 3.5 games this year helped things LOL we could have been 4-9 with dalton all year
 

JD_KaPow

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Since there's not much Dallas can do about the cap hit Elliot has, why even bring that up? If a player is playing badly does that mean you keep him, just pay him less money? What he gets paid has zero bearing on how he plays, the money's there one way or the other. So what do fans want to do? Sit him? That's great, let's waste 15 million dollars this year because he's not tearing the league apart..
You start out by saying that his contract has no bearing on things. Then you say they shouldn't bench him because he makes so much money.

His contract matters because it affects future decisions. It has no bearing on how he plays, but it has enormous bearing on whether he plays. They can't cut him to save money because the cap hit would be enormous. So they have to keep him on the roster no matter what happens to his level of play. And the history of RBs, particularly RBs like Zeke (bruisers with a lot of mileage on them and not a lot of receiving value), is really bad as they enter their late 20s. Will he defy that history and prove to be the exception? I see no reason to think so.
 

LACowboysFan1

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Zeke's contract is a nightmare for this team, and it's only going to look worse with each passing year.

Maybe. Maybe not. Next year, if the cap is reduced, sure. But just about every position salary increases, both average and the top salary, every year normally.

Let's not rush to judgment or be so pessimistic. Zeke's career, like most every player, will be judged after he's left the game. Of course if you play long enough, you can establish your reputation before you retire, but generally that takes longer than Zeke's 5 years. Witten, Larry Fitzgerald, Brees, etc. can't really hurt their reputation at this point, too many games played.

Was Emmitt judged by his last couple of years at Dallas? Of course not, really after the 3rd SB win he was set for life as a great running back.

Zeke has done a lot for this team, when he's done let history be the judge...
 

blueblood70

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Your making up scenarios to backup your thoughts, bravo. I get it, I loved 2016, 2017, 2018 when we were a really good running team it helps so much more than passing. But that is not who this team is anymore, this team has to pass more to be efficient. I haven't looked at the data so I wasn't referring not to run on 1st downs just we sometimes run too much when it is not working. The last few years we don't start moving the ball and scoring untill we open up the pass a little bit more, hence the slow starts.

Here is Zekes runs in order: Zeke 2, 2, 5, 3 -Pollard came in and got -1, 5yards, 0 on his 1st 3 carries, Zeke 5 yards, 1 yard end of the 1st half. You can't tell me running like this is sustainable and will help us win games vs good teams. We played the lowly bengals and it wasn't for 3 fumble recoveries giving us short fields we might have scored less than 20 points against them. But to my point Moore had to call pass plays to move the ball, not cause we were behind but because our poor running demanded it.
nearly all of it is declining OL and OC with bad feel for the run game ie no true scheme to sustain a run game..playing from behind 2-3 scored also didnt help..

BTW EE not going any where at least for 2021 so no matter how hard you fight scratch and write angry things those on Zees side WIN all debates hes paid and hes playing..this was a carp year for all..reboot 2021 is coming..
 

LACowboysFan1

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You start out by saying that his contract has no bearing on things. Then you say they shouldn't bench him because he makes so much money.

His contract matters because it affects future decisions. It has no bearing on how he plays, but it has enormous bearing on whether he plays. They can't cut him to save money because the cap hit would be enormous. So they have to keep him on the roster no matter what happens to his level of play. And the history of RBs, particularly RBs like Zeke (bruisers with a lot of mileage on them and not a lot of receiving value), is really bad as they enter their late 20s. Will he defy that history and prove to be the exception? I see no reason to think so.

I said his contract has no bearing on HOW HE PLAYS, I did NOT say "things". If your going to bring up my comment please don't change the words, "things" is a nebulous term.


How he plays is meaning no matter what he gets paid, if he doesn't play well the money is already allocated. You can't say "Hey Zeke, you get paid $15 million so you can't play poorly, you HAVE to be great, even if hurt, or the line's bad or you only get 8 carries" Money doesn't get on the field, the player does.

The contract has been signed, can't be erased....
 

JD_KaPow

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disagree and zeke had 2 bad games of fumbles equaling 4 of the 5 that means he had 10 games with no fumbles, not making excuses as it was unacceptable but it does happen..Murray had more in his record breaking season in success and being the all time fumbler..

Pollard fumbled last year in critical drive in the MN game..that was when we were trying to win a not in lost season..that was a huge fumble..the cost us the game type..

its been bad year all around and sorry but this isnt a zeke issue and JJ has plenty of cap money to not have this be catastrophic ok Drama Queen:facepalm::muttley:

..it ill not change thing going forward..thats a myth caps are easily maneuvered to go after whomever you want..you think Daks making 32mil for 3.5 games this year helped things LOL we could have been 4-9 with dalton all year
Zeke has fumbled 6 times this season across 4 different games. Murray had 6 fumbles in 2014, and Murray did that over 390 carries vs. Zeke's 210 this year. Pollard has fumbled once in his career.

And the idea that the cap doesn't matter is simply wrong. Yes, contracts can be manipulated and money created, but this only goes so far, and you end up having to keep players on the roster long past their usefulness because you can't afford to cut them.
 

JD_KaPow

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I said his contract has no bearing on HOW HE PLAYS, I did NOT say "things". If your going to bring up my comment please don't change the words, "things" is a nebulous term.


How he plays is meaning no matter what he gets paid, if he doesn't play well the money is already allocated. You can't say "Hey Zeke, you get paid $15 million so you can't play poorly, you HAVE to be great, even if hurt, or the line's bad or you only get 8 carries" Money doesn't get on the field, the player does.

The contract has been signed, can't be erased....
Money does get on the field, or at least on the roster. The contract can't be erased, as you say, which means Zeke can't be cut, even if his play falls off a cliff (not saying it has). Yeah, he might get fewer snaps, but he still takes up a valuable roster spot.
 
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