Is Jerry Jones the new Al Davis?

[rangers71]

Who the hell called you a troll? READ THE POST AGAIN:starspin

My bad I read it wrong. I apologize. Carry on.

 

[rangers71]

So Jimmy initiated trading Walker. Cleveland and Minny were both interested. Jimmy got a deal with Cleveland. Jimmy then "took the deal to Jerry and said this is what I've got why don't you go out and see if you can get anything more." Jerry then called Mike Lynn and let him know they were about to make a deal with Cleveland and Lynn ended up offering more. Then Jimmy made the selections with the picks we got from the deal.

Point is Jimmy had a deal with Cleveland and went to Jerry to see if he could get more. If Jerry wasn't involved Jimmy could've gone to Mike Lynn himself. But without Jimmy, Jerry never would've had any deal and with his draft history, definitely wouldn't have turned those selections into the players we got that helped lead us to the SB's.

I never said Jimmy was the sole reason we won Super Bowls. But we could've easily done so without Jerry. Jerry wouldn't have won any if he had hired soft puppet HC's back then and micromanaged the team and was in total of control of personnel.

What is so hard about that to understand?

Amazing how you twist it. It just pains you to give Jerry any form of credit whatsoever. I am done with you. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[joseephuss]

No, Jerry Jones is better than Al Davis.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/30/sportsmoney_nfl08_NFL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html

According to Forbes Dallas is ranked #1 in value in the NFL. Oakland is ranked #31. That is in large part to Jerry Jones. Oakland has a large fan base like Dallas, but the Cowboys are ranked much higher.

Dallas is valued at $1.612 billion. Oakland is valued at $0.861 billion.

Jerry deserves much of the criticism he gets, but he also has done some amazing things since buying the Dallas Cowboys.

 

[Eddie]

Jerry deserves much of the criticism he gets, but he also has done some amazing things since buying the Dallas Cowboys.

But he hasn't won a playoff game in 12 years.

:bang2:

 

[smoovb]

The similarity's are obvious..............and few. Two owners who insist on being involved and meddle too much. That's about it.

Consider the differences if you want to make this discussion complete:


1. Jerry's not vindictive and vengeful, Davis is.
2. Jerry doesn't plot and scheme to ruin a player's or coach's entire careers simply because that player or coach "crossed him". Davis does.
3. Jerry doesn't react with spite and bitterness when things don't go "just perfect". Davis does.
4. Jerry isn't paranoid, looking for ghosts and shadows and goblins at every turn. Davis is.
5. Jerry doesn't act like the Duke Brothers (Trading Places) when he lose's out, and starts shouting "We founded this exchange, turn those machines back on, TURN THOSE MACHINES BACK ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Davis does.
6. Jerry's a far better business man and politician than Davis could ever be.
7. Jerry cooperates with the league. Davis fights the leagues every move, only because HE CAN and it entertains him and makes him feel powerful. Jerry KNOWS he's powerful already. Davis needs to antagonize and be "sand in the machinery" to fill some weird vacuum of power he's lost.........or maybe never had.
8. Jerry gets new stadiums built and the "cherry" sponsor deals. Davis can't get a stadium built before 1970, and has a hard time getting KFC and Radio Shack on board.
9. Jerry will actually talk to and get to know his players. Davis couldn't be botherd.
10. Jerry's gonna' live another 30 years. Davis is the walking-dead.

But don't be confused by this. I still think that Jerry should hire a GM and take a vacation between April and February of every football year........

Great points!

 

[joseephuss]

But he hasn't won a playoff game in 12 years.

:bang2:

I didn't say he was good. Just that he was not the next Al Davis.

The Raiders have gone 77-115 in the regular season over the last 12 years.

The Cowboys have gone 95-97 in the regular season over the last 12 years.

Dallas winning at least one playoff game in the last 12 years doesn't really solve all the problems.

Al Davis and the Raiders have won a playoff game in the last 12 years and they are still a horrible franchise.

It is going to take winning a whole mess of playoff games over several seasons and maybe even winning it all.

 

[WDN]

No, Jerry Jones is better than Al Davis.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/30/sportsmoney_nfl08_NFL-Team-Valuations_Rank.html

According to Forbes Dallas is ranked #1 in value in the NFL. Oakland is ranked #31. That is in large part to Jerry Jones. Oakland has a large fan base like Dallas, but the Cowboys are ranked much higher.

Dallas is valued at $1.612 billion. Oakland is valued at $0.861 billion.

Jerry deserves much of the criticism he gets, but he also has done some amazing things since buying the Dallas Cowboys.

I will be sure and remember this when I am watching the Arizona Cardinals in the Super Bowl.

Yeah, that makes me feel real good. He made some money of this sh##y product he has on the field.

 

[Bach]

Amazing how you twist it. It just pains you to give Jerry any form of credit whatsoever.

I'm not going to give him undue credit like you and a few others want to do. What's the point in that? He wasn't some mastermind the first five years in the league and then just went on a 14 year unlucky streak. The man never was a personnel/football man.

I am done with you. Welcome to my ignore list.

oh noes!!!

I see we have another who can't handle the truth. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Quick blurb from an interview with Ron Pearlman, who might have done a little research on the topic since he wrote a book:

If you had to pick the one indispensable JJ (Johnson or Jones), who would it be? And who was in the right in their bitter breakup?

Oh, Jimmy, without question. There are a lot of rich men with deep pockets who can buy football teams. But Johnson was a personnel genius. The Herschel Walker trade that turned around the franchise in ‘89—all Jimmy. The Steve Walsh trade a year later that netted a slew of more picks—Jimmy, too. He wasn’t the greatest Xs and Os coach we’ll ever see, but the man knew talent. Put it this way: Under Jimmy, the Cowboys drafted guys like Erik Williams and Leon Lett and Kenny Gant and Clayton Holmes—small-school guys many other personnel guys hadn’t even heard of. When Jerry fired Jimmy and took over the draft, his first first-round pick was Shante Carver from Arizona State. “If you had drafted Shante Carver in the fourth, fifth, sixth rounds people would have said, ‘Hey, that’s not a terrible pick,’” Nate Newton told me. “But you can’t take a guy like that in the first round. When you draft guys in the first round you’re saying, ‘In a year this guy is going to be something.’ When did anybody say that with Shante?” In fact, from 1994 through 96, I’d argue the Cowboys put together the three worst drafts in league history. That said, Jones has really seemed to pick things up recently. He’s learned.

Except that Jimmy, as I already pointed out, gives a great deal of the credit to Jerry on the Walker trade cause he was able to go to the Vikings and get more.

So the deal was clearly NOT all Jimmy. But, please, continue to try and think so. Even Jimmy Johnson doesn't agree with you.

So Jimmy initiated trading Walker. Cleveland and Minny were both interested. Jimmy got a deal with Cleveland. Jimmy then "took the deal to Jerry and said this is what I've got why don't you go out and see if you can get anything more." Jerry then called Mike Lynn and let him know they were about to make a deal with Cleveland and Lynn ended up offering more. Then Jimmy made the selections with the picks we got from the deal.

Point is Jimmy had a deal with Cleveland and went to Jerry to see if he could get more. If Jerry wasn't involved Jimmy could've gone to Mike Lynn himself. But without Jimmy, Jerry never would've had any deal and with his draft history, definitely wouldn't have turned those selections into the players we got that helped lead us to the SB's.

I never said Jimmy was the sole reason we won Super Bowls. But we could've easily done so without Jerry. Jerry wouldn't have won any if he had hired soft puppet HC's back then and micromanaged the team and was in total of control of personnel.

What is so hard about that to understand?

So Jimmy could have got it done himself and he just decided to have Jerry do it because he felt like being nice? Right. That makes sense.


Why is it that Jerry without Jimmy gets trashed, he's an idiot, and can't do anything but Jimmy went to Miami, did absolutely nothing, but he gets a pass cause he didn't have the right kind of owner?

That's hilarious. Way to completely make stupid assumptions up in order to try and make it seem like either of these two are, or were, as good without the other.

 

[Q_the_man]

As much as I like to bash Jerry the GM...No he is not as bad as Al Davis right now.

The bad this is Al had 2 teams go to the AFC championship in the last 8 years..... just data.............only a handful of teams can say that.........Check out team that never went or hasn't won a playoff game in 12 years or more and AL Davis is not on that list..............

 

[Bach]

So Jimmy could have got it done himself and he just decided to have Jerry do it because he felt like being nice? Right. That makes sense.

Why is it that Jerry without Jimmy gets trashed, he's an idiot, and can't do anything but Jimmy went to Miami, did absolutely nothing, but he gets a pass cause he didn't have the right kind of owner?

That's hilarious. Way to completely make stupid assumptions up in order to try and make it seem like either of these two are, or were, as good without the other.

Jimmy made the majority of the decisions while in Dallas, and he was in total control of his over his own coaching staff.

I know some of you have to boost Jerry's role in those early years in order to try and maintain some semblance of hope for the present. Whatever it takes for you man, but I don't see any point in living in a fantasy world just to make myself feel better about the future.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Jimmy made the majority of the decisions while in Dallas, and he was in total control of his over his own coaching staff.

I know some of you have to boost Jerry's role in those early years in order to try and maintain some semblance of hope for the present. Whatever it takes for you man, but I don't see any point in living in a fantasy world just to make myself feel better about the future.

The only thing I feel is the need to not be a ******* and pretend that I have any sort of real clue as to who did all of what or why. You know exactly as much as any other person on this forum does in terms of who actually did, or does, what at Valley Ranch which is exactly zero.

I don't need to boost anything. I am simply going by what Jimmy has himself said about Jerry's involvement in things like the Vikings deal and the move for Haley. The fact that you feel the need to act as if you know, 100%, that Jerry did nothing in helping the team win back then shows that you're nothing but a moron who just runs his mouth about things.

You've been proven wrong, several times, in this thread and you still continue to take your little 10 year old stance of "But I'm right cause I can't be wrong."

It's cool though. Whatever gets you through your day.

 

[Bach]

The only thing I feel is the need to not be a ******* and pretend that I have any sort of real clue as to who did all of what or why. You know exactly as much as any other person on this forum does in terms of who actually did, or does, what at Valley Ranch which is exactly zero.

So that's your defense of Jerry? No one really knows what went on so he must've been a key part of it?

If you lived and followed the Cowboys in those days you have a good sense of who was primarily in charge of personnel making the decisions. Not to mention the many press conferences, interviews, news stories, quotes from coaches, former scouts, GM's of other teams, books, articles.

Just because you choose to have your head in the sand and pretend Jerry was a vital part in building those teams is irrelevant to what actually happened.

I don't need to boost anything. I am simply going by what Jimmy has himself said about Jerry's involvement in things like the Vikings deal and the move for Haley. The fact that you feel the need to act as if you know, 100%, that Jerry did nothing in helping the team win back then shows that you're nothing but a moron who just runs his mouth about things.

I didn't say he did nothing. But he did do very little in terms of player acquisition and building those teams.

As I see it, the only ones running their mouths about things they don't know are people like you who seem to feel the need to act like Jerry was instrumental in the building of the championship teams as if that will somehow give them hope now even though he has proven over the last 15 years that he has no clue how to build a championship team.

But it is rather amusing and entertaining to see the lengths you and a few others will go to in order to carry on with your fantasies. :laugh2:

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

Except that Jimmy, as I already pointed out, gives a great deal of the credit to Jerry on the Walker trade cause he was able to go to the Vikings and get more.

So the deal was clearly NOT all Jimmy. But, please, continue to try and think so. Even Jimmy Johnson doesn't agree with you.

Here is where we look at things very differently. As you stated earlier "Jimmy told the story of the trade and how he'd gotten a deal, in place, with Cleveland for Walker and he took the deal to Jerry and said this is what I've got why don't you go out and see if you can get anything more."

Jimmy told Jerry to go out and see what else he could get. Jerry then did what Jimmy asked him to do. I do give Jerry credit for doing what Jimmy told him to do and finding something better. I also give Jerry credit for discussing Charles Haley's availability with Jimmy. But, my point is that it was Jimmy who did the due diligence on Haley, decided he could work with Haley, then said to go get Haley. If Jimmy had said no, then they would not have brought in Haley. It was also Jimmy who wanted to trade Walker for picks in the first place and started brokering deals. Jerry gets credit for going along with Jimmy's plan and helping to maximize it, similar to how Norv did his job and Dave W. did his.

I give Jerry credit for doing his part, which was hiring Jimmy to build a championship team and helping Jimmy get there when Jimmy requested his assistance.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

My only point was that if it was all Jimmy, with nothing from Jerry, there never would have been the deal with the Vikes. They'd have taken Jimmy's deal with Cleveland, which was clearly not nearly what the Vikes offered, and then you wouldn't have gotten all the same things done, player wise.

Also I love how people pick the Walsh deal as some great genius move by Jimmy. Those books, articles, and such that people like to point out also like to point out how that was Jimmy getting lucky in a jam he put himself in by drafting Walsh in the first place. That wasn't a genius move by either of those two it was simply a case of getting lucky that someone was dumb enough to bail Jimmy out of the mess he created, at the QB position, by drafting Walsh in the first place.

And, again, this idea that Jimmy, or Jerry, or either of them did all the player selections on their own is just plain stupid. It's pretty well known that the 'brilliant' move to draft a falling Emmitt Smith actually wasn't a brilliant move by Johnson at all. He wanted a defensive player (As I recall it was a linebacker) at that spot so it wasn't like he was a Emmitt fan and said "By God this is the guy I'm gonna get."

He had to be talked into taking Emmitt, by others, in that room cause that wasn't his plan. Once again that isn't genius.


I give Jimmy plenty of credit for this team rebounding back then. In fact I have no problem giving him the majority of the credit. But I'm not going to be blindly hating another party so much that I'll give Johnson the sole credit for anything.

Teams NEVER win based on the efforts, or smarts, or ability of one man. Never.

You will never find a single situation in the entire NFL when that has ever happened. To simply take any major player in an team, be it the owner/coach/players/assistants coaches, whatever and say they had little or nothing to do with it defies any logic or actual knowledge of the game of football.

Jimmy certainly deserves his credit, and his place, and I give him the majority of the credit for this teams success back then but it most certainly wasn't all him.

That excuse that he did bad in Miami cause he 'didn't have the right owner' is just silly. The biggest complaint about Jerry, all these years, is that he's got his hands into it to much.

So you're telling me that Jimmy could win, with Jerry being that way, but he went to Miami and had another owner that way but he couldn't win in that situation?

All the sudden the mighty Jimmy Johnson, who could handle Jerry and get the job done all on his own, couldn't do the same in Miami?

No. Jimmy just wasn't ever quite as great as Cowboys fans would like to believe he was, myself included at times. He was a darn good Coach, and talent guy, he just wasn't as great there as he was here.

Which, to me, seems weird cause here, if he did it all on his own as our buddy Bach would love for people to believe, even with a meddling owner on his back, with what amounted to an expansion team then how come it was so much harder to get it done in Miami with a team that was FAR more talented then the one he took over here?

Seems weird to me if he was all that and a bag of chips that he wasn't as good there.

Oh, yeah, I forgot. It was the owner that wouldn't get out of his way there, just like the one in Dallas that he some how got it done with but couldn't this time around.

Jimmy was great with Jerry.

Jerry was great with Jimmy.

Jimmy SUCKED without Jerry.

Jerry sucked, and continues to suck, without Jimmy.

Until Jerry finds some other coach, like Jimmy, that he can work that well with, and do that kind of business with, I'm not sure that the Cowboys will ever be great again.