I've listened to Stephen Jones talk twice

[InmanRoshi]

I like Fleener, but to me he only makes sense if the Cowboys are just completely doing away with using a 3rd WR for nickel packages and using a 2 TE set in nickel .... because they currently they have no 3rd WR for nickel packages.

 

[jterrell]

Then can you explain Quincy Carter, Felix Jones, Jason Williams, Robert Brewster, etc.? lol

Of those only Carter was a Jerry pet cat.

JG loved Felix. He felt his offense truly needed that speed dimension and pass threat out of the back field. He drew up plays to show how he could use Felix before the draft. ---And Felix has been solid thus far not a waste.

Jason Williams and Brewster were just all-around draft misses but hardly guys Jerry or Stephen were in love with.

Believe it or not every team misses on guys.

 

[jterrell]

If you told me I had 2 picks after #10 to make my offense better in the near and long term, Fleener would be one of the picks. You would get more dynamic plays and edge pass protection in a division of edge rushers from being in a base 2 tight end set than most other things you could do offensively.

I would certainly pick Fleener (plus an additional 2nd) and one of the second round guard/centers over 2 more interior linemen.

I'd rather go defense, but I get why we would want to add Fleener a 6-6 guy who can run a 4.5 and knows how to find holes in zones is pretty valuable.

Fleener can not block.

 

[Stash]

They have maintained a high level of success on the offense...their defense last year was not exactly stellar.

It seems they decide to draft on the idea of BPA or the idea that they want to keep the offense up and choose to concentrate more on that side of the ball.

That last draft is really crazy considering they had so many needs on defense yet they only drafted a total of three players on defense and instead decided to draft 2 RBs, A QB and yet ANOTHER TE even though they had Gronk at Hernandez.

It's one issue I have with New England's recent draft as well as free agency moves.

I feel they've been neglecting pass rusher and cornerback for far too long and I think it's come back to haunt them.

So...Maybe, just maybe if we get fleener in the second, it might be because they think he is the BPA and they also want to further strengthen the offense.

Again, I can agree with improving the offense but I don;t think a #2 TE is the way to do it. No knock on Fleener, just that this team has bigger needs elsewhere.

Now There are other areas I would rather address myself so we are in the same boat here, but there is also other things to consider and just because it might not be what we want does not automatically make it silly...although sometimes it is silly.

Very true. But conversely, just because the Cowboys make a move, that doesn;t automatically make it the right move (no matter what some people would like to think).

Many people, inside and outside of the game have stated that the Cowboys have overlooked both lines for far too long and their underwhelming results have supported that belief.

 

[TheSport78]

Of those only Carter was a Jerry pet cat.

JG loved Felix. He felt his offense truly needed that speed dimension and pass threat out of the back field. He drew up plays to show how he could use Felix before the draft. ---And Felix has been solid thus far not a waste.

Jason Williams and Brewster were just all-around draft misses but hardly guys Jerry or Stephen were in love with.

Believe it or not every team misses on guys.

Jerry should not get a pass on the Felix pick. He hasn't been solid. He's been the definition of a frustrating draft pick with "potential." And considering the other RB's that were on the board (Chris Johnson, Ray Rice, Jamaal Charles), it's a huge miss. Another example of Jerry listening to his coaches and not his scouts.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

I like Fleener, but to me he only makes sense if the Cowboys are just completely doing away with using a 3rd WR for nickel packages and using a 2 TE set in nickel .... because they currently they have no 3rd WR for nickel packages.

Possible short/long term ideas with the cowboys now?

I have to wonder if things will change under garrett considering long term solutions to players to eventually replace our star players.

It is something we have not seen much from the cowboys under Jerry. QB groomed to take over...nah wait till Aikman is gone. WR to take over for Irvin...nah wait until he is gone then trade or draft.

Now I am not talking in every situation over the years but it does seem to be a mentality of sorts with Jerry.

I wonder if that will change under Garrett.

 

[Hoofbite]

I'll be livid with a TE in the 1st or 2nd.

Fleener would soften the sting a little I suppose but there are too many holes to draft yet another TE.

 

[TheSport78]

I'll be livid with a TE in the 1st or 2nd.

Fleener would soften the sting a little I suppose but there are too many holes to draft yet another TE.

If the value isn't there at #45, I wouldn't mind trading down some, acquiring an extra 3rd and drafting Orson Charles in the 3rd round.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

It's one issue I have with New England's recent draft as well as free agency moves.

I feel they've been neglecting pass rusher and cornerback for far too long and I think it's come back to haunt them.



Again, I can agree with improving the offense but I don;t think a #2 TE is the way to do it. No knock on Fleener, just that this team has bigger needs elsewhere.



Very true. But conversely, just because the Cowboys make a move, that doesn;t automatically make it the right move (no matter what some people would like to think).

Many people, inside and outside of the game have stated that the Cowboys have overlooked both lines for far too long and their underwhelming results have supported that belief.

Hey...I am on record of saying DeCastro would be my pick if available. Love the kid and it strengthens the line and offense for years. There are also defensive players I would like over Fleener.

But if he is the BPA I would not scream (2nd round not first unless we trade back up). Would not be my choice but he is a heck of a player that could help this offense both now and in the future IMO.

Personally I would rather we waited and took another TE. I think there would be better players available to us in the 2nd or if we wanted to trade back into the first there would be better players whether on the Oline or on Defense that would fit BPA and need a little more.

At the end of the day I just hope we have a good draft that makes this team better even if it might not be players I would have taken.

 

[Bowdown27]

It's the new fad. The 2 tight end system. Look at the pats and how well it worked. I'm not going to be happy of we traded that far down to take a back up tight end in round one but I'd get it honestly

 

[cowboysooner]

Fleener can not block.

He's got to line up, motion, chip and run an option route like Aaron Hernandez. If he lines up in-line, he makes the arc that much wider for an Osi, Babin or Orakpo.

 

[jterrell]

Jerry chose Felix when there were higher RB's on the board. Strictly a Garrett/Jerry pick.

Jason Williams was a Wade Philips pick and Jerry listened to him. Jerry's fault. Wade isn't a scout.

Brewster? Who knows, but can our scouts really be that horrific with scouting offensive linemen? I hope not!

We know enough about how Dallas builds it boards to know those are overstatements at the least. Dallas builds groups of players by round.
Positional rankings are done way earlier and not the final board they use on draft day. Once you get to the room there are groups of guys and then specific coaches/staff argue for their guys. Wade argued for Williams who he felt addressed a severe lack of speed at linebacker. Unfortunately Williams never could read plays. So he could only run if you told him exactly where to go. He played in 14 games last year, starting 2. If he was a top back up and special teamer here perhaps we wouldn't view him as a dreadful bust. We did give up on him quickly for a guy drafted out of nowhere state.

Jerry intentionally reached for Carter who he correctly evaluated as the best second-tier QB in that draft. He took him round 2 because he wanted to take advantage of retaining his rights a year longer than if he chose him round 3.

Scouts LOVED Tony Dixon who was beyond terrible.
Larry Lacewell was running the scouting department back then which means it had no chance but to fail.

The QCar pick was amongst our best in that sad period. He could at least play when he wasn't too high. Some of those poor guys just had zero talent.

 

[Stash]

Possible short/long term ideas with the cowboys now?

I have to wonder if things will change under garrett considering long term solutions to players to eventually replace our star players.

It is something we have not seen much from the cowboys under Jerry. QB groomed to take over...nah wait till Aikman is gone. WR to take over for Irvin...nah wait until he is gone then trade or draft.

Now I am not talking in every situation over the years but it does seem to be a mentality of sorts with Jerry.

I wonder if that will change under Garrett.

I can both respect and appreciate doing that, when you can.

But you have to balance that out with accomplishing something while you have players like Romo, Austin, and Witten as well.

I think it makes more sense to draft a player in round 1, 2, or 3 who can help the current players win now rather than eventually replace them.

Besides that, I would contend that Witten has more than two years in him - at least. So Fleener would likely be playing second banana for at least that long. Not teriffic 'bang for the buck' in my opinion.

 

[TheCount]

It seems they decide to draft on the idea of BPA or the idea that they want to keep the offense up and choose to concentrate more on that side of the ball.

That's not completely fair. They've spent plenty of picks on defense, they just don't hit on many of them.

They probably only spent 3 picks on defense in 2011 because they spent 5 picks on D in 2010 and 6 picks on D in 2009.

In fact, in the same span of time you initially specified (since 2000), they've spent 7 of their 11 first selections (they weren't all in the 1st round) on defensive players.

 

[Stash]

Hey...I am on record of saying DeCastro would be my pick if available. Love the kid and it strengthens the line and offense for years. There are also defensive players I would like over Fleener.

But if he is the BPA I would not scream (2nd round not first unless we trade back up). Would not be my choice but he is a heck of a player that could help this offense both now and in the future IMO.

Personally I would rather we waited and took another TE. I think there would be better players available to us in the 2nd or if we wanted to trade back into the first there would be better players whether on the Oline or on Defense that would fit BPA and need a little more.

At the end of the day I just hope we have a good draft that makes this team better even if it might not be players I would have taken.

Agreed.

On all counts.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Jerry should not get a pass on the Felix pick. He hasn't been solid. He's been the definition of a frustrating draft pick with "potential." And considering the other RB's that were on the board (Chris Johnson, Ray Rice, Jamaal Charles), it's a huge miss. Another example of Jerry listening to his coaches and not his scouts.

Not to mention you get "solid" role runningbacks in the 3rd and 4th round.

 

[jterrell]

He's got to line up, motion, chip and run an option route like Aaron Hernandez. If he lines up in-line, he makes the arc that much wider for an Osi, Babin or Orakpo.

The Pats averaged ~19 PPG versus us and the Giants last year.
sometimes we overlook simple things like match ups and conferences.

BP was a huge 2 TE set guy and we tried it here.

We had a far better TE blocker than anyone in this draft with Bennett but just let him walk for a couple million.

We'll use the FB more now to help block than a receiving TE.

 

[TheSport78]

We know enough about how Dallas builds it boards to know those are overstatements at the least. Dallas builds groups of players by round.
Positional rankings are done way earlier and not the final board they use on draft day. Once you get to the room there are groups of guys and then specific coaches/staff argue for their guys. Wade argued for Williams who he felt addressed a severe lack of speed at linebacker. Unfortunately Williams never could read plays. So he could only run if you told him exactly where to go. He played in 14 games last year, starting 2. If he was a top back up and special teamer here perhaps we wouldn't view him as a dreadful bust. We did give up on him quickly for a guy drafted out of nowhere state.

Jerry intentionally reached for Carter who he correctly evaluated as the best second-tier QB in that draft. He took him round 2 because he wanted to take advantage of retaining his rights a year longer than if he chose him round 3.

Scouts LOVED Tony Dixon who was beyond terrible.
Larry Lacewell was running the scouting department back then which means it had no chance but to fail.

The QCar pick was amongst our best in that sad period. He could at least play when he wasn't too high. Some of those poor guys just had zero talent.

Does that justify Jerry taking Quincy Carter at ALL?

And what?!? Quincy was our best pick? That was thee biggest reach I've ever seen with the Cowboys.

 

[jterrell]

Not to mention you get "solid" role runningbacks in the 3rd and 4th round.

Felix has averaged over 5 ypc for his career. He was also quite good as a kick returner when allowed to do that. He has also been a quite strong pass protector as a RB. He is tremendous on screens/swing passes and allowed us to add that back to the game plans.

He has been what we expected. What we didn't expect was Barber to fall apart to nothing immediately after being a Pro Bowler.

That was a great RB class but Felix hasn't been bad just because others have been good.

Felix was NOT a bad pick. He wasn't a major hit but he has been about as expected.

Every team in the league would take him right now.

And it seems hilarious to see people who claim this is the worst offensive line in the history of the NFL also say the RB who averaged over 5 YPC was a bad draft pick. We blame every Romo injury on the OL but the RB is supposed to put up elite numbers and remain healthy behind the same group?

 

[TheSport78]

Felix has averaged over 5 ypc for his career. He was also quite good as a kick returner when allowed to do that. He has also been a quite strong pass protector as a RB. He is tremendous on screens/swing passes and allowed us to add that back to the game plans.

He has been what we expected. What we didn't expect was Barber to fall apart to nothing immediately after being a Pro Bowler.

That was a great RB class but Felix hasn't been bad just because others have been good.

Felix was NOT a bad pick. He wasn't a major hit but he has been about as expected.

Every team in the league would take him right now.

And it seems hilarious to see people who claim this is the worst offensive line in the history of the NFL also say the RB who averaged over 5 YPC was a bad draft pick. We blame every Romo injury on the OL but the RB is supposed to put up elite numbers and remain healthy behind the same group?

That was the organization's first mistake. You don't draft complementary runningbacks in the 1st round. Horrible, horrible.

EDIT: Heck, I didn't even mention Mendenhall and Forte as other backs selected early. Out of Johnson, Charles, Mendenhall, Forte and Ray Rice, there's still justification in taking a complementary back in Felix? Can't buy that.