I've listened to Stephen Jones talk twice

[cowboysooner]

The Pats averaged ~19 PPG versus us and the Giants last year.
sometimes we overlook simple things like match ups and conferences.

BP was a huge 2 TE set guy and we tried it here.

We had a far better TE blocker than anyone in this draft with Bennett but just let him walk for a couple million.

We'll use the FB more now to help block than a receiving TE.

The Pats played the Giants with a 1 legged Gronkowski. The Giants were covering him with their off the street middle linebacker. That won't work if he is healthy.

We played our best defensive game of the year against them. Rob Ryan always plays great against them because he spent 4-5 years up there and knows you can't play conventional defense against them. You have to dare them to throw the ball deep and flood the short areas. It is unnatural to most defensive backs and linebackers.

I'm not sure how our defense played them matters to whether it would be good for our offense to have an Aaron Hernandez type player.

We played 2 tight ends without either of them being a dynamic playmaker. That just leads to bad 1980's offense.

Again, I'm not saying it is the way we should approach the draft, but it is a better option than getting 2 more highly picked interior linemen when we don't have the roster spots for them and have 4 obvious needs on defense.

 

[jterrell]

Does that justify Jerry taking Quincy Carter at ALL?

And what?!? Quincy was our best pick? That was thee biggest reach I've ever seen with the Cowboys.

That was not close to our biggest reach.

Please research before you post stupid things.

QCar had an 88 QB rating and went 18-16.
He was a mediocre starting QB but drafting starting QBs in round 2 isn't a reach. Even mediocre ones.

The QBs drafted immediately behind him were Tui(whatever) and Weinke. Weinke went 2-18 as a QB. Tui went 0-2.

We drafted Tony Dixon 3 picks after Carter as a Safety. He probably goes down as the worst safety to ever actually take the field for us.

We drafted Dwayne Goodrich the year before in r2. He was outplayed immediately by 4th and 6th round picks. Jerry badly wanted him to play but he couldn't cover me or you.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Possible short/long term ideas with the cowboys now?

I have to wonder if things will change under garrett considering long term solutions to players to eventually replace our star players.

It is something we have not seen much from the cowboys under Jerry. QB groomed to take over...nah wait till Aikman is gone. WR to take over for Irvin...nah wait until he is gone then trade or draft.

Now I am not talking in every situation over the years but it does seem to be a mentality of sorts with Jerry.

I wonder if that will change under Garrett.

Are you one of those who doesn't think Garrett has had major, major influence on Jerry since he got here five years ago? Wade had next to no say on offense, as we saw many times.

And we did spend the first pick of the fourth round in the old system (War Daddy!) on McGee. Unfortunately, I guess the coaches think he can't play. Doug Free did develop into a good starting tackle.

And it seems hilarious to see people who claim this is the worst offensive line in the history of the NFL also say the RB who averaged over 5 YPC was a bad draft pick. We blame every Romo injury on the OL but the RB is supposed to put up elite numbers and remain healthy behind the same group?

Great point that will be met with crickets.

 

[TheSport78]

That was not close to our biggest reach.

Please research before you post stupid things.

QCar had an 88 QB rating and went 18-16.
He was a mediocre starting QB but drafting starting QBs in round 2 isn't a reach. Even mediocre ones.

The QBs drafted immediately behind him were Tui(whatever) and Weinke. Weinke went 2-18 as a QB. Tui went 0-2.

We drafted Tony Dixon 3 picks after Carter as a Safety. He probably goes down as the worst safety to ever actually take the field for us.

We drafted Dwayne Goodrich the year before in r2. He was outplayed immediately by 4th and 6th round picks. Jerry badly wanted him to play but he couldn't cover me or you.

I'm pretty sure Quincy was projected to go in the 4th round area. It was a HUGE reach. It makes it that WORSE of a pick because Aikman had just retired and we were looking for our next franchise QB. Jerry probably watched Michael Vick get selected #1 overall and said, hmm Quincy can do that. Fail!

 

[jterrell]

The Pats played the Giants with a 1 legged Gronkowski. The Giants were covering him with their off the street middle linebacker. That won't work if he is healthy.

We played our best defensive game of the year against them. Rob Ryan always plays great against them because he spent 4-5 years up there and knows you can't play conventional defense against them. You have to dare them to throw the ball deep and flood the short areas. It is unnatural to most defensive backs and linebackers.

I'm not sure how our defense played them matters to whether it would be good for our offense to have an Aaron Hernandez type player.

We played 2 tight ends without either of them being a dynamic playmaker. That just leads to bad 1980's offense.

Again, I'm not saying it is the way we should approach the draft, but it is a better option than getting 2 more highly picked interior linemen when we don't have the roster spots for them or and have 4 obvious needs on defense.

He was hurt both times they played the Giants?

They scored 20 in a regular season game.

The Giants used Gronk or Hernandez as their 2nd WR basically. They were often split out wide and Brady read coverages to get mismatches versus smaller or slower players.

The Pats run a flag football offense where Brady just finds mismatches. The Pats didn't have the WRs other than Welker to beat our defense or the Giants and the TEs were the weapons they used most.

Teams without Brady can't run that same offense and anyone trying would be foolish.

It's like every team trying to go wildcat. It is a novelty, not a legit offensive scheme.

 

[cowboysooner]

F

And it seems hilarious to see people who claim this is the worst offensive line in the history of the NFL also say the RB who averaged over 5 YPC was a bad draft pick. We blame every Romo injury on the OL but the RB is supposed to put up elite numbers and remain healthy behind the same group?

SHUSH

 

[jterrell]

I'm pretty sure Quincy was projected to go in the 4th round area. It was a HUGE reach. It makes it that WORSE of a pick because Aikman had just retired and we were looking for our next franchise QB. Jerry probably watched Michael Vick get selected #1 overall and said, hmm Quincy can do that. Fail!

Please dont post anymore about this.
It is rubbish.

We sucked as a team with or without Quincy. He was a druggie and loser but at least had talent. We didn't draft many players with ANY talent in those days.

QCar was rated round 2 to 5 depending upon which draftnik site you followed. Even this year there will be guys rated round 4 go in 2. It happens regularly.

That isn't a world class reach. Tannehill going top 10 is a bigger reach than Carter going round 2. Especially since they had the same skill sets.

Should Jerry have paid for a much better QB in free agency or via trade? Probably. Then again when you suck it is hard to sale out for a QB. QCar was a solid draft choice because he was a solid talent. He was fail because he was fail as a human being but we got enough out of him to far succeed what many other round 2 picks delivered.

He was a tremendously more impactful player for us than Bobby Carpenter or David LeFleur who went r1 to us.

 

[AmishCowboy]

I like Kevin Kroger from Michigan in the 5th round

 

[Stash]

That was the organization's first mistake. You don't draft complementary runningbacks in the 1st round. Horrible, horrible.

EDIT: Heck, I didn't even mention Mendenhall and Forte as other backs selected early. Out of Johnson, Charles, Mendenhall, Forte and Ray Rice, there's still justification in taking a complementary back in Felix? Can't buy that.

I completely agree with you here.

And it's much the same way I approach the thought of a #2 TE, either in round 1 or round 2, you just don't do it, especially when you have as many legitimate needs as this team currently does.

 

[InmanRoshi]

That was the organization's first mistake. You don't draft complementary runningbacks in the 1st round. Horrible, horrible.

EDIT: Heck, I didn't even mention Mendenhall and Forte as other backs selected early. Out of Johnson, Charles, Mendenhall, Forte and Ray Rice, there's still justification in taking a complementary back in Felix? Can't buy that.

Exactly. The fault is taking role runningbacks with first round picks when you can find them lower in the draft. It would be the same thing if we drafted Martin this year in the first round. The indictment isn't on Martin, who I like, the indictment is you took a part time role player at a non-premium position with a first round pick. Who not take a nickel safety with a 1st round pick? A nickel coverage ILB with a 1st round pick (sorry, I forgot we took one of those in the 2nd round pick last year). Maybe a 2 down back I could see, at least he's closing out the game for you in the clutch with the game on the line, but not a nickel back. The only other teams that might look at Martin will be teams looking at him as at least a 2 down back, if not 3 down.

 

[cowboysooner]

He was hurt both times they played the Giants?

They scored 20 in a regular season game.

The Giants used Gronk or Hernandez as their 2nd WR basically. They were often split out wide and Brady read coverages to get mismatches versus smaller or slower players.

The Pats run a flag football offense where Brady just finds mismatches. The Pats didn't have the WRs other than Welker to beat our defense or the Giants and the TEs were the weapons they used most.

Teams without Brady can't run that same offense and anyone trying would be foolish.

It's like every team trying to go wildcat. It is a novelty, not a legit offensive scheme.

They also put him in the backfield, line him up as a wingback and do a ton of stuff with him.

If someone said Aaron Hernandez is in this draft except he does not have the character concerns, where would he go and what type of team should take him?

To me, he would not be great as an every down #1 tight end, although the Saints are trying Jimmy Graham to much success. Jimmy is no more than in the way on most running plays.

His best spot is a pure spread team like the Colts used to be or a team with a solid do it all tight end with no 3rd receiver or 2nd tight end.

He would be a huge threat as a 2nd tight in in play action. We have the outside receivers to make the holes in zones quite large or the matchups in man to our favor. The packers and saints do similar stuff (looking for matchup advantages) with non base personnel but they do it with wr 3-5 plus sproles.

 

[TheSport78]

Please dont post anymore about this.
It is rubbish.

We sucked as a team with or without Quincy. He was a druggie and loser but at least had talent. We didn't draft many players with ANY talent in those days.

QCar was rated round 2 to 5 depending upon which draftnik site you followed. Even this year there will be guys rated round 4 go in 2. It happens regularly.

That isn't a world class reach. Tannehill going top 10 is a bigger reach than Carter going round 2. Especially since they had the same skill sets.

Should Jerry have paid for a much better QB in free agency or via trade? Probably. Then again when you suck it is hard to sale out for a QB. QCar was a solid draft choice because he was a solid talent. He was fail because he was fail as a human being but we got enough out of him to far succeed what many other round 2 picks delivered.

He was a tremendously more impactful player for us than Bobby Carpenter or David LeFleur who went r1 to us.

I was almost with ya until there. Talent alone doesn't make a draft pick solid.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The problem I believe we have is that in a two TE set, you typically have a blocking TE and a TE that can push the seam. Now, in the past, we have never really been able to do that. We have used Witten as receiver but mostly intermediate routes. He is no longer a guy, IMO, who can force teams to respect his ability to go for 6 down the seam. If we were to take Fleener in the first, I would expect that this is why. Witten's role would probably pick up more of the blocking and be used more in short to midrange routes where Fleener would be the guy we used to pressure the safeties. I think that the team had this idea in mind when they took MB but that just never really materialized. MB could not be consistent enough in that role. They were forced to make Witten the threat guy and Bennett the block guy which was not what Bennett wanted. Thus the trade.

The other thing that I think we don't want to be dealing with is the same situation we had once Jay N. retired. We went a long time without having that position really settled. Also, Fleener is much more like Novacek then is Witten. It may also be that Garrett sees more Jay or Doug Cosbie in Fleener and is looking for a suitable replacement for Witten. That's a very real possibility. Witten is getting long in the tooth now. This coming season will be his 10th. He had a great season but his numbers did go down in almost all areas from the two previous seasons.

If we trade down, I could see us going for Fleener. I actually would not be opposed to it but not at 14. It would have to be a trade down into the low 20s or more.

 

[jterrell]

They also put him in the backfield, line him up as a wingback and do a ton of stuff with him.

If someone said Aaron Hernandez is in this draft except he does not have the character concerns, where would he go and what type of team should take him?

To me, he would not be great as an every down #1 tight end, although the Saints are trying Jimmy Graham to much success. Jimmy is no more than in the way on most running plays.

His best spot is a pure spread team like the Colts used to be or a team with a solid do it all tight end with no 3rd receiver or 2nd tight end.

He would be a huge threat as a 2nd tight in in play action. We have the outside receivers to make the holes in zones quite large or the matchups in man to our favor. The packers and saints do similar stuff (looking for matchup advantages) with non base personnel but they do it with wr 3-5 plus sproles.

It depends on what you want to do offensively.

Witten and Gonzales started this stuff and then Gates took it to the next level.

We have routinely split Witten out wide for match ups.

Could we use Hernandez? Of course.
Would it make us a better offense for him to regularly replace say Vickers? I don't think so.

The Giants won the Super Bowl with no legit Tight Ends and plan to start our re-tread next year.

I'd generally prefer having a good 3rd WR to a 2nd stud TE.
Right now we have neither though which is a fair point.

 

[jterrell]

I was almost with ya until there. Talent alone doesn't make a draft pick solid.

when compared with drafting non-talent it does.

overall qcar was not a good pick.
compared to the average lacewell era selection he was great value....

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

when compared with drafting non-talent it does.

overall qcar was not a good pick.
compared to the average lacewell era selection he was great value....

I didn't love him JT. I think that our QB situation drove that pick 100% and I understand that. Doesn't mean it was a good pick thou. I have no problems with his athletic ability, that was there. However, he was inaccurate, had poor mechanics and he struggled picking up the offense. Add to that, and this is really the biggest reason, he had a known substance problem when we drafted him and we still bet on him. No way would I ever draft a QB in the 2nd round whom I expected to be our starter with this issue. I think we were asking for trouble and we got it. JMO

 

[Kangaroo]

Then can you explain Quincy Carter, Felix Jones, Jason Williams, Robert Brewster, etc.? lol

Yes QC was old school Lacewell who is no longer here and explain to me every other team that has busted draft picks including the all mighty Patriots who Brain just showed could not draft a TE if their life depended on it and then finaly got it correct

Baltimore Ravens also busted on picks happens what you need is the hits to be good

 

[TheSport78]

when compared with drafting non-talent it does.

overall qcar was not a good pick.
compared to the average lacewell era selection he was great value....

Quincy Carter and great should be words never close to each other.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Quincy Carter and great should be words never close to each other.

That's not true...let me give you an example...

Quincy Carter is a great example of how not to look in photographs...

 

[TheSport78]

That's not true...let me give you an example...

Quincy Carter is a great example of how not to look in photographs...