Jason Garrett and the Cowboys are not credible?

[CCBoy]

You're asking basically 'if we have a failure of coaching then will we have had a failure of coaching.' Uh....sure. There are situations where it could turn out that the coaching staff is not good enough. That's just not the trend and it's counter to what we've been seeing on the field. But if the current trends all reverse, then, sure, you guys will have been proven right about the staff in the end.

It can happen. Coaches lose teams in this league all the time. But on paper, at least for now, it does look like they're continuing to build a better, deeper roster. We've got extra picks and are about to come into extra cap space. We've got maybe the most talented young core in the league right now. And that's all the result of the current regime and the current decision making process. There's no good reason to borrow trouble and pretend it's going to reverse itself.

If one trains a young soldier right, then the adage, forged in fire...came out steel, applies.

 

[Idgit]

If one trains a young soldier right, then the adage, forged in fire...came out steel, applies.

It's like what you were saying about winning a race without any feet. I don't get why more people don't see it that way, CC.

 

[CCBoy]

It's not a strawman at all. It's simply the facts. The team is obviously getting better, and some people want to believe its happening in spite of the coaching and not because of it.

There's no excuse making going on. I'm not making excuses. I'm saying 'look at the results. You have nothing to complain about regarding the coaching.' Every team has 'on the field issues.' Coaches aren't perfect, and there are going to be mistakes on a certain low percentage of snaps over 7 years. That's thousands of calls. Of course some are better than others, and of course some are just plain bad.

The OJT chatter is coming from dissatisfied fans, not the other way around. The roster *has* been remade. He's got a team that not only should do well in the regular season but also make some noise in the playoffs...because he's built that team. Yes, it needs to keep winning. That's the whole point of building it in the first place. And if it doesn't keep building then the staff will get replaced. That's life in the NFL.

But, no, it's not an average coaching staff. If you're looking at a team that's performing in the top quartile over a rebuilding phase which is now a legitimate contender for a championship where we were not before, you can't reasonably call that an 'average' job. That's above-average performance.

 

[waving monkey]

Ever?

Garrett signed an extension in 2015 that will run through 2019 and any play off games included.
He will finish that extension. He will not be fired.

 

[CCBoy]

That's the whole point I am making. It's time to start performing. He's had his 6 years of learning or whatever you guys want to call it. No more excuses.

(coughing loudly) I'll email Jerry that a fan is going to fire him...

 

[Sydla]

It's not a strawman at all. It's simply the facts. The team is obviously getting better, and some people want to believe its happening in spite of the coaching and not because of it.

There's no excuse making going on. I'm not making excuses. I'm saying 'look at the results. You have nothing to complain about regarding the coaching.' Every team has 'on the field issues.' Coaches aren't perfect, and there are going to be mistakes on a certain low percentage of snaps over 7 years. That's thousands of calls. Of course some are better than others, and of course some are just plain bad.

The OJT chatter is coming from dissatisfied fans, not the other way around. The roster *has* been remade. He's got a team that not only should do well in the regular season but also make some noise in the playoffs...because he's built that team. Yes, it needs to keep winning. That's the whole point of building it in the first place. And if it doesn't keep building then the staff will get replaced. That's life in the NFL.

But, no, it's not an average coaching staff. If you're looking at a team that's performing in the top quartile over a rebuilding phase which is now a legitimate contender for a championship where we were not before, you can't reasonably call that an 'average' job. That's above-average performance.

One playoff win in 6 seasons. That's a "result" we can all look at.

That's average. You can slice and dice it anyway you want but it's average. And let's also note that this isn't just a unique thing to Cowboys fans. You look around the league, at NFL writers and analysts, and there are few outside of Dallas that think Garrett is some really good coach. They can't all be haters.

Reality is Garrett has some good qualities. I will readily admit that. But he has flaws. He also hasn't performed at a high level. You can claim it all you want but he's had some talented teams, certainly talented enough to make the playoffs and win games but in 6 seasons has one playoff win. He's basically becoming our version of Marvin Lewis. Good enough to not quite warrant firing but not good enough to turn this team into a legit contender.

 

[Idgit]

One playoff win in 6 seasons. That's a "result" we can all look at.

That's average. You can slice and dice it anyway you want but it's average. And let's also note that this isn't just a unique thing to Cowboys fans. You look around the league, at NFL writers and analysts, and there are few outside of Dallas that think Garrett is some really good coach. They can't all be haters.

Reality is Garrett has some good qualities. I will readily admit that. But he has flaws. He also hasn't performed at a high level. You can claim it all you want but he's had some talented teams, certainly talented enough to make the playoffs and win games but in 6 seasons has one playoff win. He's basically becoming our version of Marvin Lewis. Good enough to not quite warrant firing but not good enough to turn this team into a legit contender.

Noting again that the emphasis has changed from 'winning' to 'winning in the playoffs.' Because the 'winning' argument no longer applies. Because the team has gotten better and is winning.

As you say, we'll see if he can continue to build on what he's done. But you can't move the goalposts so far that you expect to make an argument that outperforming 75% of the league while rebuilding a 1-7 roster is average performance.

I dispute the idea that few outside of Dallas think Jason Garrett is a good coach. I believe most observers would say we've got a pretty good staff right now and are heading in the right direction under Garrett.

I've said many times that Garrett has flaws. He has performed at a high level, though. His teams haven't beaten the best teams in the league, but then, we haven't had one of the best teams in the league for very long. 2014 and 2016 were both teams capable of competing at that level, and both came up short. Both games came down to one drive, essentially. Both games featured questionable calls that went against the Cowboys. And in both games we were unable to stop a superior QB when it mattered most. We both agree that the defensive talent is limited.

What reason is there to believe we wouldn't get over the hump with more pressure or better coverage on that side of the ball? We're consistently ticking the boxes on what a good team needs to do to be great ones. The last box is 'get more consistent pressure on the QB.' Why not just agree that we should do whatever we can to tick that one and see what happens? I can assure you, if we win the Superbowl we'll both be happy with the outcome, even if there are still people pretending it happened accidentally in spite of the coaching staff.

 

[Doomsday101]

They won't look at the play by play on that game. But, yeah. In those early drives we had the sack on Witten/Dak that got us in the passing situation where GB got the PD on Dez, and we had the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on Butler that took us out of a running situation. Prior to that, we were running it just like we always do. There was a 3rd and 2 in there where Dak threw it, but I don't remember the game situation well enough to know if that was a good idea or a bad one given the defense. Either way, I don't have a problem with throwing the ball on 3rd and 2 now and then.

If we want to blame the coaching staff for the early part of that game, it's for thinking they could substitute on Rodgers. That was a legitimate bad idea, and it was one they obviously discussed in advance and prepared for during the week.

Agree, Hell Garrett would catch hell for being predictable, people need a reason to complain. Rodgers was moving the packers and putting up points. Once Dallas got behind we needed to throw the ball a bit more and did yet Zeke was still getting touches maybe not as much but the Cowboy had to adjust and did. Offensively the Cowboys put up 31 points they got us right back into the game so all this complaining about offensive game plan is a joke. Garrett can't adjust BS he can and did. Cowboys problems are on defense and it showed when we needed them to most.

 

[Doomsday101]

With a reinvented run action that is then redefined a special case for passes....and then lose by 5 points? Follow that with a loss by 3 points from a literally last few seconds field goal...with a difficult 3rd down conversion and long yardage.

No, not even stretched, is that a failure by Jason Garrett. Unless one owns prime real estate around the burn barrel and are in fact a died in the wool ring tapper, who would rather complain than root for a team that one purports to back.

Not even an ounce of middle ground there!



...and I had a '65 Baracuda....and then a '75 black Nova. Traded in a Cutlass with a 350 rocket. Now I just drive my F150 and enjoy the military grade aluminum frame, and what THAT brings!!

Jerry knew what talent and how to get it, back when he purchased the team and started off with Jimmy Johnson.

He has remained current on how and NFL changes for success, and has again re-established the fundamentals for establishing a powerhouse in today's game. He has always circled the wagons...but learned. That goes in how and who to have on a team, and also, who to run a team.

He didn't just go out and buy the Prom Queen...but has learned it all, and listened along the way.

As HC you take the heat on any loss I have no issue with that, but people going on about the offense in that game? give me a break when my offense is putting up points I have a hard time coming down on them. Defense we all knew had problems but I give credit they played above their heads for most of the season but when facing a QB like Rodgers who got hot mid way through the season they were unable to control him and the GB passing game.

 

[Idgit]

...Cowboys problems are on defense and it showed when we needed them to most.

Every time we say this, we get some variant of 'yeah, definitely, but....' I'm getting pretty tired of it, honestly. We've neglected this defense for so long, and yes, that's on Garrett. We had the wrong coordinators, we had bad players, we took unnecessary risks, and we used premium picks to bolster what was already a good offense and make it an elite one. But the defensive personnel has suffered. There are no 'buts'. We don't have enough defensive talent on the roster.

We outperformed our talent level last year by a wide margin. And then were exposed again in the playoffs. And probably would have been by ATL if we'd advance past GB. It's such an obvious disadvantage, and it's a fairly easy liability to address, given the state of the offense and the number of picks and amount of cap room we have coming available.

Just fix it and see what happens. I don't see how that's not a no-brainer for everybody.

 

[Sydla]

Noting again that the emphasis has changed from 'winning' to 'winning in the playoffs.' Because the 'winning' argument no longer applies. Because the team has gotten better and is winning.

As you say, we'll see if he can continue to build on what he's done. But you can't move the goalposts so far that you expect to make an argument that outperforming 75% of the league while rebuilding a 1-7 roster is average performance.

I dispute the idea that few outside of Dallas think Jason Garrett is a good coach. I believe most observers would say we've got a pretty good staff right now and are heading in the right direction under Garrett.

I've said many times that Garrett has flaws. He has performed at a high level, though. His teams haven't beaten the best teams in the league, but then, we haven't had one of the best teams in the league for very long. 2014 and 2016 were both teams capable of competing at that level, and both came up short. Both games came down to one drive, essentially. Both games featured questionable calls that went against the Cowboys. And in both games we were unable to stop a superior QB when it mattered most. We both agree that the defensive talent is limited.

What reason is there to believe we wouldn't get over the hump with more pressure or better coverage on that side of the ball? We're consistently ticking the boxes on what a good team needs to do to be great ones. The last box is 'get more consistent pressure on the QB.' Why not just agree that we should do whatever we can to tick that one and see what happens? I can assure you, if we win the Superbowl we'll both be happy with the outcome, even if there are still people pretending it happened accidentally in spite of the coaching staff.

First, stop with the "he took over a 1-7 roster". That season came unraveled under Phillips but it was essentially the same team that went 11-5 the year before and won a playoff game. In 2010, the season went sideways for whatever reason, but not having talent is not one of them.

The rest of your post highlights where some of our disagreements lie. I don't wash away the first 6 seasons. So the fact he hasn't been able to beat the better teams in the league is not something I can simply ignore and just assume it will change. A sign of a great coach is one that wins those games, even sometimes with an inferior roster. And if you are going to try to give him credit for playoff games he almost one despite some rough calls, let's point out his only playoff win could easily been a loss if the refs had properly called a PI late in the game.

All I am saying is it's time to stop worrying about roster construction and things he needed to learn and the list of excuses you guys come up with for the fact we have largely been a so-so franchise under his run. Put up or shut up time now. I certainly do not deny that maybe he is the guy and maybe starting this season we start to see the fruits of being patient. But to me, it starts now. No more excuses or mulligans or whatever. At some point, he has to perform on the field.

 

[ShiningStar]

They better be coming. If they don't, the Cowboys would be fools to put up with him as head coach for much longer.

some people enjoy the mediocrity. they will as some posters proved, keep adjusting their expectations as the excuses are used. Itwas teh teams fault for hiring Rob ryan. It was the teams fault for hiring Monte Kiffen, It was the teams fault that Weeden was brought in but didnt fit our system, it was the fans fault because the drafts werent good. It wasnt a less experienced head coach who beat Garrett not once last year but twice because Garrett had a hang nail and it was bothering him during the game.

8-8 is just fine for some people. They get to high give their chums, have a good time, and look for the next excuse. Okay we didnt win it all this year, but its an aging roster. no NFL team can win wiht an aging roster its never happened ok he went 8-8 3 times in a row, but thats ok, the team bus didnt have the good luck charm on it. Not his fault. Butler isnt a good receiver, some phantom coach signed him, we dont know. Someone else signed Morris, we drafted 2 RBs and had McFadden on the team, clearly that was the "turks" fault. . Ok the running game is working, lets confuse the other team by passing, or drawing up the same play they saw before.. None of these should be the HC concern. I personally dont expect our head coach to know these things

It will always be an excuse, leave the mediocirty alone because its just fine.

 

[gmoney112]

Remember when we were all worried about the future at QB? Yeah, me neither.

A 4th round pick just had, arguably, the greatest rookie QB campaign of all time. I guess that isn't coaching.

We beat plenty of good teams during the regular season last year. We lost to the Packers (after we beat them in Lambeau) when we couldn't stop a hot Rodgers, a future HoFer, and were victims of some pretty egregious non-calls. Anyone who watched the game critically could tell you that.

Our defense hasn't been talented enough. Pretty simple. But we're a better pass defense away from being a perennial contender.

At some point the Head Coach does deserve some credit.

 

[CCBoy]

some people enjoy the mediocrity. they will as some posters proved, keep adjusting their expectations as the excuses are used. Itwas teh teams fault for hiring Rob ryan. It was the teams fault for hiring Monte Kiffen, It was the teams fault that Weeden was brought in but didnt fit our system, it was the fans fault because the drafts werent good. It wasnt a less experienced head coach who beat Garrett not once last year but twice because Garrett had a hang nail and it was bothering him during the game.

8-8 is just fine for some people. They get to high give their chums, have a good time, and look for the next excuse. Okay we didnt win it all this year, but its an aging roster. no NFL team can win wiht an aging roster its never happened ok he went 8-8 3 times in a row, but thats ok, the team bus didnt have the good luck charm on it. Not his fault. Butler isnt a good receiver, some phantom coach signed him, we dont know. Someone else signed Morris, we drafted 2 RBs and had McFadden on the team, clearly that was the "turks" fault. . Ok the running game is working, lets confuse the other team by passing, or drawing up the same play they saw before.. None of these should be the HC concern. I personally dont expect our head coach to know these things

It will always be an excuse, leave the mediocirty alone because its just fine.

Yea, the ring tappers believe that a 12 win and 13 win season are low grade seasons...go figure.

 

[Idgit]

First, stop with the "he took over a 1-7 roster". That season came unraveled under Phillips but it was essentially the same team that went 11-5 the year before and won a playoff game. In 2010, the season went sideways for whatever reason, but not having talent is not one of them.

The rest of your post highlights where some of our disagreements lie. I don't wash away the first 6 seasons. So the fact he hasn't been able to beat the better teams in the league is not something I can simply ignore and just assume it will change. A sign of a great coach is one that wins those games, even sometimes with an inferior roster. And if you are going to try to give him credit for playoff games he almost one despite some rough calls, let's point out his only playoff win could easily been a loss if the refs had properly called a PI late in the game.

All I am saying is it's time to stop worrying about roster construction and things he needed to learn and the list of excuses you guys come up with for the fact we have largely been a so-so franchise under his run. Put up or shut up time now. I certainly do not deny that maybe he is the guy and maybe starting this season we start to see the fruits of being patient. But to me, it starts now. No more excuses or mulligans or whatever. At some point, he has to perform on the field.

The fact that he took over a 1-7 roster is not debatable. It wasn't essentially the 2009 team, it did unravel, and he did go about with a fairly dramatic overhaul in his first offseason as head coach. That was the season he jettisoned three OLs and Marion Barber, and brought in Tyron Smith and Demarco Murray, among other things.

I don't know how many different ways I can make the point that I don't wash away seasons, either. The difference in our perspectives is I don't blame a coach for getting .500 results from a sub-.500 roster. Nor do I expect a coach to beat the best teams in the league consistently without assembling one of the best rosters himself.

I reject the idea that a good coach gets you wins your roster doesn't deserve. A good coach builds a roster that can win. Sure, games get stolen here and there, and really great coaches have a track record for being able to do that. We don't have that. The good news is, we don't need it to win. We just need better defensive personnel.

And to be clear, I'm not crediting him for almost winning those GB games but for some bad calls. We lost them outright. That doesn't mean they weren't close losses. The point isn't that they weren't losses. The point is they were very close. That's a good thing. (On a sidetone, it sounds like we disagree the Hitchens face guarding penalty, too, but that's a discussion for another day).

It's never time to not be concerned with the construction of the roster. The NFL is about assembling talent, and always will be. That's what causes teams to lose close games to other contending teams. That's the reality, not an excuse. And it's the same reality I've been preaching for years now because I'm not the one who moves the goalposts on how we define success. I've never apologized for the progress we've made. I'm not the one trying to characterize how it's not, in fact, progress. It is what it is. We win more than most teams under Garrett. We win at a higher rate now under Garrett than we have previously because the roster is more talented. We're assembling talent at a faster rate than the rest of the league right now, and we're down to one specific area that needs attention. We've got extra draft picks to work with, and we've got the cap space to continue to improve. I'm not making excuses because there's nothing that needs to be excused. You don't apologize for being successful. And you don't need to bury your head in the sand trying to find reasons we're not even more successful than we are.

Just address the talent deficiency on defense, finally, and see where it takes you. If it's not good enough, we both agree that a coaching change will be in order.

 

[Idgit]

some people enjoy the mediocrity. they will as some posters proved, keep adjusting their expectations as the excuses are used. Itwas teh teams fault for hiring Rob ryan. It was the teams fault for hiring Monte Kiffen, It was the teams fault that Weeden was brought in but didnt fit our system, it was the fans fault because the drafts werent good. It wasnt a less experienced head coach who beat Garrett not once last year but twice because Garrett had a hang nail and it was bothering him during the game.

8-8 is just fine for some people. They get to high give their chums, have a good time, and look for the next excuse. Okay we didnt win it all this year, but its an aging roster. no NFL team can win wiht an aging roster its never happened ok he went 8-8 3 times in a row, but thats ok, the team bus didnt have the good luck charm on it. Not his fault. Butler isnt a good receiver, some phantom coach signed him, we dont know. Someone else signed Morris, we drafted 2 RBs and had McFadden on the team, clearly that was the "turks" fault. . Ok the running game is working, lets confuse the other team by passing, or drawing up the same play they saw before.. None of these should be the HC concern. I personally dont expect our head coach to know these things

It will always be an excuse, leave the mediocirty alone because its just fine.

Somehow you manage a fairly long post by only addressing arguments nobody is making. Impressive. Here's an idea: let's work on fixing things that we can all agree are liabilities, and see where that takes us.

Also, let's lookup what the word 'mediocre' actually means so that we can use it properly without overstating our case for dramatic effect.

 

[Doomsday101]

This is the current picture for the Dallas Cowboys:

Team Ranking -Overall: Rushing/ Passing
Offense 5th 149.8 (2nd)/ 226.9 (23rd)
Defense 14th 83.5 (1st)/ 260.4 (26th)


The team needs to be better in the passing games: both on the offense and on the defense

Cowboys were 30th in passing attempts so 23rd in yardage make sense. It is not because we need to improve passing it is the offense centers around the run game.

 

[Stash]

Go look at the play by play even when Dallas fell behind they still ran but yes going down 21-3 will give any team a sense of urgency and fact is they moved the ball they put up 31 damn points they got the game tied so BS on all this they needed to run the ball more. What they needed to do was stop GB from converting a 3rd and 20 in the last few seconds of the game and gave up 30 on the play. Get a clue, all this whining about the offense they had over 400 yards of offense and put up 31 points that is not bad offense what so ever. Dallas was 54% on 3rd down same as GB. The difference was the defense failed to come up with a big stop when they needed to.

Love how you can make excuses for other coaches. Hey he is Bill Belichick greatest of all coaches NO excuses. Garrett has had to rebuild this team and has been doing so with positive results.

Looks like "BS" on your claim that they "ran him quite a bit early". And then the goalposts get moved.

You've said a lot of good stuff in this thread, but that false claim wasn't one of them.

 

[ShiningStar]

Remember when we were all worried about the future at QB? Yeah, me neither.

A 4th round pick just had, arguably, the greatest rookie QB campaign of all time. I guess that isn't coaching.

We beat plenty of good teams during the regular season last year. We lost to the Packers (after we beat them in Lambeau) when we couldn't stop a hot Rodgers, a future HoFer, and were victims of some pretty egregious non-calls. Anyone who watched the game critically could tell you that.

Our defense hasn't been talented enough. Pretty simple. But we're a better pass defense away from being a perennial contender.

At some point the Head Coach does deserve some credit.

yes he does.

 

[ShiningStar]

Somehow you manage a fairly long post by only addressing arguments nobody is making. Impressive. Here's an idea: let's work on fixing things that we can all agree are liabilities, and see where that takes us.

Also, let's lookup what the word 'mediocre' actually means so that we can use it properly without overstating our case for dramatic effect.

set the excuse limit than we ll talk.