Jerry Jones on the defense

[gbrittain]

I know for a fact is was never the player's fault

How cute. I for sure know it was the players fault unlike many. I just happen to understand that when you are the coach and you "bought the groceries" that when the players keep failing ultimately the coach takes the responsibility.

 

[theogt]

But at this point I think a convincing argument can be made that this defense has fewer "missing parts" as a 4-3 than it does as a 3-4-- and those missing parts as a 4-3 aren't the pieces that most consider to be "hard to find" when debating the 3-4 vs. 4-3 issue.

I don't think there is, really. If you're only considering starters, then yes maybe. But there's not much depth at the end positions if we switched to a 4-3 full-time.

Regardless, the ability to find talent isn't the only convincing argument for the 3-4.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

How cute. I for sure know it was the players fault unlike many. I just happen to understand that when you are the coach and you "bought the groceries" that when the players keep failing ultimately the coach takes the responsibility.

that's just a lazy way of deciding who to blame, a young team is going to make mistakes, and it happened, and the other part was Bill not adjusting on D, which hurt us too, idk why people don't get this, but I guess you have to hurry up and pen blame on anyone just so it's out there and we know you're disappointed *not you, just theoretically speaking*

 

[blindzebra]

But at this point I think a convincing argument can be made that this defense has fewer "missing parts" as a 4-3 than it does as a 3-4-- and those missing parts as a 4-3 aren't the pieces that most consider to be "hard to find" when debating the 3-4 vs. 4-3 issue.

We are missing the same parts in both schemes, it's just how you fill them.

In the 3-4 we have a hole in the middle, and if you fill that hole with Carpenter, you then have a hole outside. We have little depth at NT, and we have no idea if a change in coaching gets Spears and Canty to a more productive level.

In a 4-3 we have a hole in the middle too. We would need to replace James. Carp and Ayodele have never played 4-3 MLB. We'd be projecting Spears and/or Canty to DT, but we don't have anyway of knowing if they'll produce more there are not. Plus we can't count on Ellis returning.

The way I figure it we need a DT/NT regardless of scheme.

We need an inside LB regardless of scheme.

We need a pass rusher regardless of scheme.

 

[gbrittain]

that's just a lazy way of deciding who to blame, a young team is going to make mistakes, and it happened, and the other part was Bill not adjusting on D, which hurt us too, idk why people don't get this, but I guess you have to hurry up and pen blame on anyone just so it's out there and we know you're disappointed *not you, just theoretically speaking*

Wow...that bolded part is a major revelation for me on your part. I am not being sarcastic either. I am serious. Kudos to you.

That is a major reason I wanted Parcells outta here. There are two ways you can look at things IMO.

Zimmer sucked and Parcells refused to do anything about it or Parcells was way more involved in the defense than many want to believe.

Either way, it did not speak well of Parcells. When you are "defensive" coach and you spend most of your focus, draft picks, and FA dollars on the defense yet get pretty pitiful results...well that is a major problem.

 

[CATCH17]

that's just a lazy way of deciding who to blame, a young team is going to make mistakes, and it happened, and the other part was Bill not adjusting on D, which hurt us too, idk why people don't get this, but I guess you have to hurry up and pen blame on anyone just so it's out there and we know you're disappointed *not you, just theoretically speaking*

I agree.

I saw to many times where our players were put in position to win games and they just didnt do it.

The coaches deserve blame for some of the Losses especially down the stretch but our earlier losses in my opinion fell straight on the shoulders of our players.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Wow...that bolded part is a major revelation for me on your part. I am not being sarcastic either. I am serious. Kudos to you.

thanks for the kudos, but I was griping w/ the rest of you all during our late-season D collapse about it, but notice I said that was only part of the problem? the players still have to execute

 

[Alexander]

I do not want to hear any complaints out of you either. After all it is your "guy" that quit.

Yes, and I am very bitter towards him for not sticking out the remainder of his contract and leave this team in a better position. Had he left next season, we probably wouldn't be talking about Norv Turner becoming the next head coach. He forced Jones Disaster Plan A and that is unforgiveable.

You will also never ever blame Norv for anything that goes wrong. Because we all know that players playing without emotion and completely falling on their faces is not a reflection on the coach. We know that when players do not play/execute well that it is the responsibility of the players and not the coach. We also know that if the offense or defense sucks that it is the coordinators fault and not the HC.

The players ultimately do have accountability. But most Coach Parcells bashing started with the head coach and pointed right to a stifling of the talent on the team.

I think some things will improve, regardless of who the head coach is. They usually do if the talent is there. Change alone sometimes breathes new life into a team. But where Turner has failed is with managing games and controlling his players. That is where I believe he will fail, as he has done in the past. I won't even get into his weak player evaluation skills, which are equally damning.

If he has a strong staff around him, including people like Rivera, he has a very good chance of at least aspiring to mediocrity. That will still far short of what people demanded (and expected) from Coach Parcells.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

We need a pass rusher regardless of scheme.

Z I respectfully disagree with that...

I think if you put out a 4-man line with the defensive ends being Ware and Hatcher--your pass rush takes a quantum leap forward.

Now can you always use another pass rusher? Absolutely! But it's not quite as critical acquiring one if we went to a 4-3 with Ware and Hatcher at the end position.

 

[Alexander]

Z I respectfully disagree with that...

I think if you put out a 4-man line with the defensive ends being Ware and Hatcher--your pass rush takes a quantum leap forward.

Now can you always use another pass rusher? Absolutely! But it's not quite as critical acquiring one if we went to a 4-3 with Ware and Hatcher at the end position.

I can appreciate your enthusiasm about Hatcher, Mr. Winicki.

I just don't believe most share it.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I can appreciate your enthusiasm about Hatcher, Mr. Winicki.

I just don't believe most share it.

And I'm not sure why not-- the kid was productive out there.

 

[Alexander]

And I'm not sure why not-- the kid was productive out there.

In the nickel, he was.

Remember Eric Ogbogu? He once recorded four and a half sacks for us doing the very same thing.

 

[gbrittain]

Yes, and I am very bitter towards him for not sticking out the remainder of his contract and leave this team in a better position. Had he left next season, we probably wouldn't be talking about Norv Turner becoming the next head coach. He forced Jones Disaster Plan A and that is unforgiveable.



The players ultimately do have accountability. But most Coach Parcells bashing started with the head coach and pointed right to a stifling of the talent on the team.

I think some things will improve, regardless of who the head coach is. They usually do if the talent is there. Change alone sometimes breathes new life into a team. But where Turner has failed is with managing games and controlling his players. That is where I believe he will fail, as he has done in the past. I won't even get into his weak player evaluation skills, which are equally damning.

If he has a strong staff around him, including people like Rivera, he has a very good chance of at least aspiring to mediocrity. That will still far short of what people demanded (and expected) from Coach Parcells.

I really can not argue with anything you said. I do worry about Turner controlling the players. Managing games does not concern me to much or I should say it does not concern me anymore than the way I worried when BP was around.

As far as the bolded part. If the staff around him is strong and Jeff Ireland is providing the menu in which players to choose from I do not worry to much about player evaluation.

Norv is definitely not who I would pick. Yes, I do worry about him. If things always went according to play Dallas would be championship caliber team right now. Instead we are either big time overachievers or big time underachievers. It is either the "groceries" or the "chef".

I will say this much: I will hold Norv or whoever the next HC is to the same standards I demanded out of Parcells.

I am spoiled, but I am not so spoiled to think you can expect a Super Bowl win. I do think it is reasonable to expect a team to play well consistently. That to me was the Cowboys biggest downfall under Parcells. We were pretty much win a game lose a game kind of team interupted by the occasional two or three game winning streak.

 

[CATCH17]

Hatchers got everything you could ask for in a player.

I think hes got a chance to be really good just based on his physical features.

Mario Williams and him have a lot of the same attributes and we found this guy in the 3rd round and didnt have to use the #1 overall pick.

Williams got a lot more playing time then Hatcher did this year and he only wound up with 2 more sacks.

I like Hatchers abilities and skill sets but im not ready to bet the farm on him being that guy opposite of Ware.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

In the nickel, he was.

Remember Eric Ogbogu? He once recorded four and a half sacks for us doing the very same thing.

Ogbogu wasn't a 3rd round draft pick.

Plus he didn't have the size Hatcher does.

Believe it or not that's how people progress in this league. At some point you have to put these guys out there and see if they'll perform. And you put them out there full-time after they've proven something in a limited role--
Hatcher has done that. Give him an offseason to improve his conditioning and then give him the chance to start as the strong-side defensive end.

I know some want an absolutely proven guy to be given the starting job but that's not real life-- in any business, not just the NFL.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Ogbogu wasn't a 3rd round draft pick.

Plus he didn't have the size Hatcher does.

Believe it or not that's how people progress in this league. At some point you have to put these guys out there and see if they'll perform. And you put them out there full-time after they've proven something in a limited role--
Hatcher has done that. Give him an offseason to improve his conditioning and then give him the chance to start as the strong-side defensive end.

I know some want an absolutely proven guy to be given the starting job but that's not real life-- in any business, not just the NFL.

so basically you want to give 3/4ths of our Dline a chance? assuming we move back to the 4-3

a chance that Ware won't wear down and get sucked up by massive OTs
a chance that Spears will improve in basically the same situation at DT that he was in as the 3-4 DE
a chance that Hatcher gets conditioned enough, and is able to keep the weight on, to play LDE full-time

that's alot of ifs there buddy

 

[Aikbach]

I really think Jerry could psyche everyone out and as he pulls his hand out from behind his back to show the fans Turner he quickly switches to his other hand and reveals Singletary with a loud "Gotcha!".

 

[MichaelWinicki]

so basically you want to give 3/4ths of our Dline a chance? assuming we move back to the 4-3

a chance that Ware won't wear down and get sucked up by massive OTs
a chance that Spears won't improve in basically the same situation at DT that he was in as the 3-4 DE
a chance that Hatcher gets conditioned enough to play LDE full-time

that's alot of ifs there buddy

How did the d-line do last year?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

How did the d-line do last year?

not too good, but in the 3-4, the LBs are the ones who are supposed to supply much of the pass-rush, in the 4-3, it's the front 4, we'd be counting on alot of ifs there

 

[MichaelWinicki]

not too good, but in the 3-4, the LBs are the ones who are supposed to supply much of the pass-rush, in the 4-3, it's the front 4, we'd be counting on alot of ifs there

And how much faith do you have that our linebackers can go from about 17 sacks to the 30 needed to make the 3-4 a success?