Jonathan Cooper on track for a starting job

gimmesix

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You should continue doing these but I think most people will enjoy them after the game more than during the game.

I did do them after the game. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I had to go back and rewatch each play over and over because I was trying to focus on the linemen and Gathers, who blocked overall better than I thought he would.
 

gimmesix

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Callahan was a VERY under rated O line coach; and thankfully Pollack is high caliber as well. Houck was over the hill when he came back.

I was concerned about Pollack because he had failed when he tried to implement zone blocking in Oakland. I thought there might be some drop-off when Callahan left. Obviously, the caliber of linemen we have helps tremendously, but Pollack actually seems to have built on what Callahan started.
 

xwalker

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Callahan was a VERY under rated O line coach; and thankfully Pollack is high caliber as well. Houck was over the hill when he came back.
I'm not sure he was that good the 1st time. Tony Wise was the OL coach that help Jimmy build the Super Bowl OLines. Houck came in for Jimmy's final season after Wise departed with Wannstedt.
 

xwalker

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I did do them after the game. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I had to go back and rewatch each play over and over because I was trying to focus on the linemen and Gathers, who blocked overall better than I thought he would.

Yes, Gathers was impressive. He has a lot to learn as his positioning was sometimes off a little (let the DL get inside leverage too easily) but his power to block defenders once he has his hands squarely on them is impressive.
 

gimmesix

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Yes, Gathers was impressive. He has a lot to learn as his positioning was sometimes off a little (let the DL get inside leverage too easily) but his power to block defenders once he has his hands squarely on them is impressive.

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but I was impressed with how he used his hands and his power, especially considering that he tended to stay too upright, losing the leverage battle. That hurt him on a few plays, but he went to toe-to-toe with some defensive ends where they had the leverage and still held them off.
 

Corso

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Here are the breakdowns from the offense's first two drives. I quit writing down my analysis after the first two drives. As you can tell by this, Cooper was solid on most of these snaps.

Keith Smith with an 11-yard return on a short kick behind blocking by Gathers and Lenny Jones. Jones' man beat his block to make the tackle, but neither got much of a push and about five Cardinals were there to make the play.

1st and 10 - Moore dropped back, right end stopped his rush, jumped and knocked down the pass. Looney and Cooper gave up ground on the interior, but it was a quick drop and pass. Collins and Bell doubled the left end and he went nowhere. Gathers went out into the right flat and a linebacker was right there with him

2nd and 10 - Handoff to McFadden behind right guard for 2 yards. It looked like he could have bounced it outside for a bigger gain because Collins just slapped the left end out of the play when he tried to stop his rush and play contain. Cooper took on the right defensive tackle and didn't get movement, but held him up long enough that he wouldn't have made the play. Bell and Looney doubled Nkemdiche, but got no movement, then Nkemdiche beat Looney to make the tackle when Bell peeled off to clear a linebacker from the hole. It's possible the linebacker would have gotten McFadden if he had tried to bounce the run. Gathers tried to block an end, who quickly ripped away from him and made the tackle along with Nkemdiche.

3rd and 8 - 6-yard slant to Andy Jones. Gathers went up the middle but didn't shake the linebacker. Collins set up well to force the left end to try to go around him. The end tried the arm-over technique, but Collins gave him a shove to make him no factor. Cooper and Looney doubled the right defensive tackle and he pretty much was stopped in his tracks. Bell's man, who I think was Nkemdiche, had him on skates and probably would have been able to put some pressure on Moore if it had not been a quick throw. Seems like we were expecting pressure on the play because of the quick, short throw.

Kickoff return - Lenoir with a 15-yard return. Gathers got knocked back as a blocker, which led to Lenoir bouncing the return toward the sideline. (There were a bunch of Cardinals in a clump, so it wasn't just Gathers' block that led to the decision, but it was the block closest to him at the time and with the most penetration.) Leon McFadden called for holding as he tried to prevent his man from pulling away and keeping Lenoir from getting around the corner.

1st and 10 - Pass to Smith for 8 on a roll-out. Dallas had the Cardinals going with the fake run to the right. Collins pushed his man that way then jerked him to the ground. Cooper had no problem pushing his man that direction, either. Gathers was on the right side of the formation, chipped Collins' man then blocked a DB and kind of got hung up on him. Bell's man forced his way by him and a couple of others were unblocked, but all three went for the play-action first which made it a fairly easy pitch and catch.

2nd and 2 - McFadden loses 4 when Looney gets beat badly off the snap. McFadden was heading toward right tackle, where Collins had not driven his man out of the way. However, without Looney's mistake, McFadden would have easily been able to cut inside the block. Cooper did a good job of taking his man down the line of scrimmage, but was looking to get off him and get to the second level. (Cleary was trailing and dived to knock Cooper's man down.) The left end went inside of Gathers, who then pushed him past the play. No blame for McFadden on that one. Nkemdiche blew it up, allowing a linebacker to come in and finish it.

3rd and 6 - Pass to wide-open Jarwin for about 15. Collins' man was kept well away, tried a spin move that didn't work, then tried to bull him back. Cooper and Cleary handled a stunt well, with Cooper taking his man to the ground. Bell allowed late pressure as the ball was coming out. Gathers was running a deeper pattern that went offscreen after he headed straight upfield.

1st and 10 - Fake handoff and deep ball to Butler, who raced through a weak jam and had his man beaten by 3 or 4 yards. Collins at first had no one to block, then assisted Bell to allow no pass rush from their man. Cooper knocked his guy back then gave up a little ground, but not enough to matter. Gather was on the line next to Cleary and took on a linebacker coming up on the run fake. He used his hands well to force the linebacker to stop and try to make a move to beat him. Clean pocket, no pressure on about a 44-yard catch and run.

1st and 10 - Handoff to McFadden going right around Collins and losing 4 yards. I'm not sure where McFadden was supposed to run on that play. It didn't appear to me the way that Collins was blocking that McFadden was supposed to take the run that wide. Collins got on his man and had him pinned to the outside, but was unable to drive him toward the sideline and McFadden essentially ran right into the tackle as well as a linebacker who came up to fill before Looney could get close to him on the pull. Cooper also got turned by his man who would have been there to make the play if the others hadn't. We had double tight ends to that side and Gathers did a pretty good job of holding up his man, but other than Bell, the line gave McFadden nowhere to go on that side. If he had cut the run up toward Bell's block, he might have at least been able to get back to the line of scrimmage.

2nd and 14 - Three-man rush, dump to Keith Smith for 3. Bell pass his man off to Collins, who had him blocked, but then Smith gave the DE a chip to the ribs that put him on the ground before Smith went out into his pattern. Cooper and Looney doubled the DT, then Bell came over and helped after passing off the end and that DL had no chance of going anywhere. No pressure. Gathers went over the middle and didn't look to be open.

3rd and 11 - 26-yard TD pass to Gathers. Moore given time to pat the ball and find him. Collins got pushed back toward Moore on a stunt that he and Bell picked up well enough. Cooper's man hit Moore after he released the ball by bulling Cooper back (and Moore stepping into his throw). Good throw by Moore where Gathers could get his hands up to catch it and good job by Gathers easily hanging on despite a linebacker draped on him and hitting his hands. Good concentration. Gathers didn't run away from the defender, but the ball was well-placed to allow him to use his size to reach up and grab it.
Beautiful work. Oh man... I could survive without water and food, if I had this to live on.
 

xwalker

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I think I mentioned this in another thread, but I was impressed with how he used his hands and his power, especially considering that he tended to stay too upright, losing the leverage battle. That hurt him on a few plays, but he went to toe-to-toe with some defensive ends where they had the leverage and still held them off.
Yes, I don't think Hanna/Swaim can make some of those blocks. They often don't have to because their good with angles and steering defenders where the want them to go; however, I think if Hanna/Swaim try to take on a 3-4 DE straight up that they'll get run over.
 

gimmesix

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Yes, I don't think Hanna/Swaim can make some of those blocks. They often don't have to because their good with angles and steering defenders where the want them to go; however, I think if Hanna/Swaim try to take on a 3-4 DE straight up that they'll get run over.

Definitely seems like he has the power to be a Martellus Bennett-level blocker.

Witten has always overachieved as a blocker because he's tenacious and uses good technique. Bennett became a better blocker than him when he learned to pair his power with good technique. Gathers shows that potential.
 

diefree666

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3-4 DE's usually are around 300 lbs or bigger; there really are no TE's in the NFL that can stone them. Most would get run over. The bigger ones and better blockers like Bennett can steer them or delay them enough but it certainly is no cake walk. The better 3-4 DE will pretty much eat any TE no matter how good they are.
 

Stash

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My assessment of Cooper is going off the Hall of Fame game and what I've seen from videos. He's not a power player. That's what I saw of him in college as well and was what I was concerned about in his game when he was one of our draft targets. Fortunately, in this scheme, being a power blocker isn't as big of a deal. He had a couple of run blocks in this game where he man was able to punch him and get away, but for the most part he maintained contact.

Here are draft reports on him if you doubt this:

Rob Rang: WEAKNESSES: Cooper lacks overpowering strength and can be pushed into the pocket by bigger, stronger defensive tackles when he allows his pad level to rise. Was prone to an occasional slipped block and/or needless penalty earlier in his career, though he showed much more consistency as a senior. Underwent shoulder surgery before his senior season, which will have to be checked out by team doctors.

Lance Zeirlein: Has only average height and bulk, and is a bit long-legged for the position (though he should continue to grow in an NFL strength and conditioning program). Functional strength is only adequate; stronger tackles get a bit of push against him in pass protection. Will have occasional missed assignments in pass protection.

You can read the rest here: https://www.patspulpit.com/2016/4/3/11287468/revisiting-jonathan-coopers-scouting-report

If Cooper "lacks overpowering strength", Chaz Green is a cream puff. Green put up 19 reps for his combine bench while Cooper nearly doubled that with 35.

And since we're listing weaknesses alone, here are Green's:

WEAKNESSES

Poor base blocker in the run game. Doesn't get the hip rotation needed after initial engagement and plays with lean over drive, despite some power in his legs. Stops his feet and loses defender against counter moves on pass rushes. Could use more time in weight room for added upper-body strength. Needs to carry hands higher in pass-pro setup. Missing a jarring punch to keep pass rusher from caving the edge. Scouts question functional strength to redirect defenders around edge or on inside moves.


http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/jonathan-cooper?id=2539272


http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/chaz-green?id=2552666
 

gimmesix

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If Cooper "lacks overpowering strength", Chaz Green is a cream puff. Green put up 19 reps for his combine bench while Cooper nearly doubled that with 35.

And since we're listing weaknesses alone, here are Green's:

WEAKNESSES

Poor base blocker in the run game. Doesn't get the hip rotation needed after initial engagement and plays with lean over drive, despite some power in his legs. Stops his feet and loses defender against counter moves on pass rushes. Could use more time in weight room for added upper-body strength. Needs to carry hands higher in pass-pro setup. Missing a jarring punch to keep pass rusher from caving the edge. Scouts question functional strength to redirect defenders around edge or on inside moves.


http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/jonathan-cooper?id=2539272


http://www.nfl.com/draft/2015/profiles/chaz-green?id=2552666

I understand that Green is not perfect, but I've seen this "functional strength to redirect" with him when he was called upon to start. I know that he has power based off observation. It's still a question mark to me with Cooper, or at least the degree of power in his game.

Now, there are other issues for Green at guard that might end up making him the lesser candidate, primarily I believe with technique at guard, and if he can't stay healthy, it's not going to matter anyway. Did you see in the preseason or regular season games any issues with him concerning power?
 

Stash

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I understand that Green is not perfect, but I've seen this "functional strength to redirect" with him when he was called upon to start. I know that he has power based off observation. It's still a question mark to me with Cooper, or at least the degree of power in his game.

Now, there are other issues for Green at guard that might end up making him the lesser candidate, primarily I believe with technique at guard, and if he can't stay healthy, it's not going to matter anyway. Did you see in the preseason or regular season games any issues with him concerning power?

In my opinion, I don't think either guy plays with what I would call "power", so in comparing the two, it's really a lesser of two evils for me. But, given comparable measurables of strength and power, Cooper's measurables are obviously much higher - to a significant degree.

When it comes to Green, I need to actually see something. I need to see him at left guard and not just have to hear Bryan Broaddus perpetually trying to prop him up only to watch him get injured again.

If nothing else, I give Cooper credit for two things:

1) Actually being healthy enough to play in that preseason game

And

2) Not getting injured while doing it.

That's two points ahead he's got on Green for me. Green played well in those two games for Tyron Smith last year, but then he turned into "Chaz Green injured guy" yet again. I know it's got to frustrate him, and it frustrates me too. The guy can be all-world as a player but he's not much good to anyone if he can't stay on the field.

It sounds like he's recovering quickly and hopefully he can get back out there to compete for that spot. But I would still be very hesitant to count on him in a starting role.
 

Verdict

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It's kind of a process of elimination that he starts. Collins was moved outside. Green is forever injured.

Should have tagged Leary and reevaluate next spring.

I too think that they should have resigned Leary. Of course with cap considerations if we can replace him with a less expensive substitute and get the same level of play, that is preferred.

I would have also looked to add a running back in the draft. Maybe Smith makes that moot. I am hoping so. It would be a tragedy to fail to have a RB capable of carrying this team without Zeke in case of suspension, or injury with this current OL. A ******* tragedy.
 

gimmesix

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In my opinion, I don't think either guy plays with what I would call "power", so in comparing the two, it's really a lesser of two evils for me. But, given comparable measurables of strength and power, Cooper's measurables are obviously much higher - to a significant degree.

When it comes to Green, I need to actually see something. I need to see him at left guard and not just have to hear Bryan Broaddus perpetually trying to prop him up only to watch him get injured again.

If nothing else, I give Cooper credit for two things:

1) Actually being healthy enough to play in that preseason game

And

2) Not getting injured while doing it.

That's two points ahead he's got on Green for me. Green played well in those two games for Tyron Smith last year, but then he turned into "Chaz Green injured guy" yet again. I know it's got to frustrate him, and it frustrates me too. The guy can be all-world as a player but he's not much good to anyone if he can't stay on the field.

It sounds like he's recovering quickly and hopefully he can get back out there to compete for that spot. But I would still be very hesitant to count on him in a starting role.

I agree that we need to see Green in there doing it. I don't mean to sound like I'm knocking Cooper. I would have liked to have seen more power on a few plays last week, but he played well.

As I've said, I'd rather the guy who can stay the healthiest be the best of the bunch. I don't know if it will turn out that way, but that's what I hope whether it's Cooper, Green or Bell, who I think showed that he needs to be quicker off the snap. Right now, my opinion of Green is based on what I saw of him last season and when he had to step in for Smith and Free, but all of that was at tackle.

I do agree that hearing "reporters" prop up a certain player doesn't really mean much because some of them have their biases so they are going to see what they want. That's one reason why I went through the first couple of drives of the game and just tried to show what the linemen did, so it would be more informational than biased.
 

gimmesix

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I too think that they should have resigned Leary. Of course with cap considerations if we can replace him with a less expensive substitute and get the same level of play, that is preferred.

I would have also looked to add a running back in the draft. Maybe Smith makes that moot. I am hoping so. It would be a tragedy to fail to have a RB capable of carrying this team without Zeke in case of suspension, or injury with this current OL. A ******* tragedy.

Behind this line, McFadden is capable because they can open the holes that he needs to utilize his speed. He averaged 4.6 yards per carry in 2015 when we didn't have capable quarterbacks. The only question with him is the same one we have with Green concerning health.

I think Dallas didn't draft a running back because the plan has been for Smith to make the roster as a core special-teammer and fallback at RB and FB. I think this plan was in place as soon as McFadden re-signed to be the primary backup. The only hiccup is McFadden's health.
 

Stash

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I agree that we need to see Green in there doing it. I don't mean to sound like I'm knocking Cooper. I would have liked to have seen more power on a few plays last week, but he played well.

As I've said, I'd rather the guy who can stay the healthiest be the best of the bunch. I don't know if it will turn out that way, but that's what I hope whether it's Cooper, Green or Bell, who I think showed that he needs to be quicker off the snap. Right now, my opinion of Green is based on what I saw of him last season and when he had to step in for Smith and Free, but all of that was at tackle.

I do agree that hearing "reporters" prop up a certain player doesn't really mean much because some of them have their biases so they are going to see what they want. That's one reason why I went through the first couple of drives of the game and just tried to show what the linemen did, so it would be more informational than biased.

I definitely appreciated your work and effort on that. Good stuff.
:thumbup:
 

Stash

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I agree that we need to see Green in there doing it. I don't mean to sound like I'm knocking Cooper. I would have liked to have seen more power on a few plays last week, but he played well.

As I've said, I'd rather the guy who can stay the healthiest be the best of the bunch. I don't know if it will turn out that way, but that's what I hope whether it's Cooper, Green or Bell, who I think showed that he needs to be quicker off the snap. Right now, my opinion of Green is based on what I saw of him last season and when he had to step in for Smith and Free, but all of that was at tackle.

I do agree that hearing "reporters" prop up a certain player doesn't really mean much because some of them have their biases so they are going to see what they want. That's one reason why I went through the first couple of drives of the game and just tried to show what the linemen did, so it would be more informational than biased.

From today's mailbag:

Broaddus continues to push Green for that LG spot, despite the fact that he's not playing or practicing.

DAVID OLLILA
VANCOUVER, WA
Is the starting left guard this season not on the roster yet?


Bryan: I think it is. I believe it's going to be Chaz Green but for how long is the question? If he was more reliable then this wouldn't even be a discussion. He's one of the best five linemen on this squad so they will roll with him.

David: Every year, this team winds up signing some contributors after final roster cuts – think back to Mark Sanchez, Christine Michael and C.J. Spillman. I think there’s a good chance that happens on defense this year, considering all the issues on the defensive line. But between the trio of Chaz Green, Jonathan Cooper and Byron Bell, I think the Cowboys can find a starting guard from within their own roster. Read

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/2017/08/09/mailbag-cowboys-starting-left-guard-roster-right-now

I just don't see how a team can overlook the clear and obvious availability issues with Green. How do you negatively affect cohesion and continuity by counting on a guy that can't stay healthy for a few weeks' time to be a starter?
 

gimmesix

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From today's mailbag:

Broaddus continues to push Green for that LG spot, despite the fact that he's not playing or practicing.

DAVID OLLILA
VANCOUVER, WA
Is the starting left guard this season not on the roster yet?


Bryan: I think it is. I believe it's going to be Chaz Green but for how long is the question? If he was more reliable then this wouldn't even be a discussion. He's one of the best five linemen on this squad so they will roll with him.

David: Every year, this team winds up signing some contributors after final roster cuts – think back to Mark Sanchez, Christine Michael and C.J. Spillman. I think there’s a good chance that happens on defense this year, considering all the issues on the defensive line. But between the trio of Chaz Green, Jonathan Cooper and Byron Bell, I think the Cowboys can find a starting guard from within their own roster. Read

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/2017/08/09/mailbag-cowboys-starting-left-guard-roster-right-now

I just don't see how a team can overlook the clear and obvious availability issues with Green. How do you negatively affect cohesion and continuity by counting on a guy that can't stay healthy for a few weeks' time to be a starter?

Well, I agree with him that if Green is one of the five best linemen then he should start and we should get whatever we can out of him ... to an extent. If he's only marginally better than Cooper or Bell, then I would have no problem with the best fit for continuity starting.

I'm not going to knock Broaddus for his belief. Even though Dallas gave Green rest because of his shoulder, Broaddus could be right based on what he has observed. I do agree, though, that he gets locked in on players and sometimes sees what he wants to see. It'll be good when we can see for ourselves.
 

Stash

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Well, I agree with him that if Green is one of the five best linemen then he should start and we should get whatever we can out of him ... to an extent. If he's only marginally better than Cooper or Bell, then I would have no problem with the best fit for continuity starting.

He's a backup candidate for me because of his unavailability. The guy just can't hold up.

I'm not going to knock Broaddus for his belief. Even though Dallas gave Green rest because of his shoulder, Broaddus could be right based on what he has observed. I do agree, though, that he gets locked in on players and sometimes sees what he wants to see. It'll be good when we can see for ourselves.

I'm knocking his thought process. I didn't want Chaz Green starting due to his injury history before this last one, this one just reinforces what I already knew in that the guy can't stay healthy. Again, he could be a fine player, but if I can't count on him, I'm not starting him and risking the cohesion of my entire line in the process.

Broaddus needs to realize that.
 

gimmesix

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He's a backup candidate for me because of his unavailability. The guy just can't hold up.



I'm knocking his thought process. I didn't want Chaz Green starting due to his injury history before this last one, this one just reinforces what I already knew in that the guy can't stay healthy. Again, he could be a fine player, but if I can't count on him, I'm not starting him and risking the cohesion of my entire line in the process.

Broaddus needs to realize that.

I understand this thought process, but I can't get behind it. If Green gives us a better chance of success if even for a few games, then I'm for him starting. I think that's more important than any perceived cohesion loss. It isn't like if he goes down we're having to bring in another guard who hasn't worked with the first unit. Both Cooper and Bell are spending time there and I don't think we'll miss a beat as far as continuity goes, just as we didn't when Green had to step in at tackle.

Like I said, if it's close, give it to the guy you think can stay healthy. If it's not close, give it to the player who is clearly better and let the rest take care of itself.
 
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