Judge Says Native Americans Waited Too Long to Sue Commanders Over Name

[Hoofbite]

I've got mixed feelings on the issue. I don't think that the Commanders should have to change their name but I can understand those who want a new logo.

While I don't find any problems with the logo, I can't hate those who do. Really though, as far as Native American depictions go, the Commander's logo is far more tasteful than the Indians logo.

Or even the Blackhawks and Florida State Seminoles logo. Those two logos sport face paint and the Seminoles logo gives the appearance of what could be coined as a "war cry".

IMO opinion, the Cleveland Indians logo is by far the most distasteful. I'm sure there are other out there as well but I really don't feel that the Commanders logo is as disparaging as many of those others.

As far as the Commanders name is concerned, I think it is a little much to expect them to have to change it. And even though I feel like the Commanders logo is done in a tasteful manner (as far as logos are concerned) I really would support those who do not agree and would like a change.

The Commanders could easily compromise and change their logo to the helmet emblem they used a few years back that looked just like the Seminoles current helmet emblem with just the head of a spear on there. Or they could just change the color on those McDonalds helmets they used last season and call that good. Hell, combine all three helmets and use the surrounding circle with feathers to encapsulate the "R" from the McDs helmets and then run the spear right through the middle of that "R".

They could do a number of things but they won't have to do any of them at all.

I agree with the ruling but only because I feel that the Indians logo is far worse and should really be the focus of this group if they are really concerned with removing negative depictions.

 

[cowheel]

Is the word black offensive if you use it? My guess is it wouldn't be. How do you define when it is wrong to use the word and when it's ok?

The word black is not offensive to me at all.

But if some team in America at any level of sport had a logo with a little black face slapped on the side of the helmet... and called themselves the black skins.--- yeah - I'd be appalled!

How you gonna turn a race of people into a mascot... especially a race of people that has beenthru what Native Americans have been thru in this country?

lol... i just don't get how anyone could possibly think this is OK.
It is really ridiculous that I'm spending this much time arguing this point...

I'm in disbelief really.

Like I said - all you have to do is talk to a Native American face to face and ask HIM about te term Commander.
And make sure you say it in a nice way....

 

[Hostile]

The term "black" isn't offensive, but if you went up to a group of black people and said "Hello blacks!" you'd probably offend them as well.

Of course, if you had a team called the Washington Blacks, that'd be pretty offensive too.

Hate to tell you this, but instead of contradicting my point, you proved it. Labeling a people is offensive.

 

[theogt]

Hate to tell you this, but instead of contradicting my point, you proved it. Labeling a people is offensive.

Iwasn't trying to contradict you, just pointing out that the label itself isn't necessarily offensive, it's all in how it's used.

 

[Tovya]

Iwasn't trying to contradict you, just pointing out that the label itself isn't necessarily offensive, it's all in how it's used.

Well, I agree... I actually am half Muskogee myself, and I really could care less what they call their team. I mean if it was called the "Indian Killers" I would definitely feel different about the issue.

There is a real problem that does exist though....

Our people for instance live a pretty low standard of life. Instead of whining about team mascots, the leadership on the reservations need to focus their energy on fighting poverty, alcoholism,and gangs on reservations. This is the problem facing Native Americans today... not supposed insulting team names. I lived on one when I was a kid, so I know a thing or two about the problems the youth on reservations face, and I promise team mascots is somewhere near the bottom of the list on real problems.

 

[Hostile]

It may or may not. But what's for certain is that a racist owner in the 1960s does not make other owners or fans of the same team racist. I have heard a story that the name Commanders actually came from the first head coach who was part Native American, but I'm not sure if that's true.

Yeah and I had a Commanders fan tell me one time that the word is derived from a peanut that is indigenous only to the DC area.

The sad thing is...he was dead serious.

Your team was founded in 1932 as the Boston Braves. Is Braves the name of a peanut that is indigenous only to the Boston area? If you research your history you'll find that was also a Boston baseball team's name.

In 1933 they changed the name to Boston Commanders as they played at the same park, Fenway, as the Red Sox. Let me ask you a question. In 1933 was the term Commanders racial?

Their coach was Sonny Dietz and he was indeed supposedly part Indian.

In 1937 they moved to Washington, DC yet decided to keep the name Commanders. So the name was changed when they moved across Boston from Braves Field to Fenway, but it remained the same from Fenway to DC.

Curious, if they had decided to call themselves the Red Sox, if you think the name would have stayed and your team be the Washington Red Sox?

Tribute to Dietz or not, it is clear that the term is an insult and in 1933 it would be even more of one since the country has grown since then. Continuing to use terms like that stunt the growth of the country though and continue to perpetuate racial stereotypes.

The etymology of the word has been around since I believe the 1600's but it always was meant as an insult. When a White person called someone a Commander he was NOT saying you're my equal even though you have red skin. If you believe that wasn't a slur then all I can say is wow.

In the frontier lands many men made their livings as fur trappers. These men also scalped Indians that they had altercations with. They would sell their deerskins, beaverskins, wolfskins, bearskins, and Commanders. Now I ask you, what animal was the last one?

Would you take my challenge from post #17? If not, tell me why not. You've said the word is about the team now, not the slur. Then it shouldn't be any problem should it?

Has the connotation of the word changed as you suggest? Sure, I can see where as people rationalize something it becomes more and more acceptable. Happens all the time. I can come up with many examples and so could you. It doesn't make it right. It never has and it never will.

Are there Native Americans not offended by the word? Yeah, there are. I have a Navajo friend, Russell, who is a Commanders fan. He went to the same High School as my wife, their mascot is the Commanders. He doesn't see any issue with it either. That doesn't make it right either.

The fact remains that the etymology of the word and the history surrounding it are offensive and at times even brutal when you consider the sale of human scalps.

If they changed the name would you stop loving your team? I doubt it.

Then why not do what is right?

 

[Hostile]

Iwasn't trying to contradict you, just pointing out that the label itself isn't necessarily offensive, it's all in how it's used.

Okay, then instead of saying the word how about you wear some of their gear and let me take you someplace. Don't say a word at all. Just wear the clothes with the logo.

You up for that?

 

[Route 66]

We could also bring up the Tomahawk Chop movement that is so popular amongst fans as well. Yeah, let's all pretend we are killing and chopping with a Tomahawk in the crowd yet end zone celebrations with throat slitting and firing off a six shooter is penalized. If someone went to work and went up behind somebody and started to pretend to chop someone with a Tomahawk, some might find it humorous and some might find him or herself in with HR. Professional sports has a funny way of leading a double standard.

The fact that Commander fans think the term is ok due to what the name means to most today shows a lack of humanity and respect for history. I have seen and heard the term "Washington Commanders" all my life. Yes it does bring up a football team to my mind but what we are "used to" doesn't make it right either. Just because it has become a "household name" to most in this country, doesn't make it right to discount this country's past. I just don't think referring to a race of any group of people is right. This country has definitely gone off the deep end in regards to political correctness but that doesn't mean that there aren't still issues today.

 

[leeblair]

I think that Native Americans should be proud that their heritage is remembered and honored. The whole reason for using the Commanders name is that it honors the battles and traditions of Native Americans- and when they do have a good year, the Native Americans should enjoy the publicity that their memory is given due to be honored by that name.

I can't see the problem, or the dishonor, in someone wanting to name a professional sports team after an important part of American History.

Seriously, though, Native Americans should be honored-not insulted, by the idea of their heritage being hallowed enough that one of the most popular franchises in the NFL -one that has won Super Bowls, no less-would name themselves after them.

They are looking at it all wrong.



And we can't help it that the Washington Commanders suck; that's just the way it is.

 

[TheCount]

I think that Native Americans should be proud that their heritage is remembered and honored. The whole reason for using the Commanders name is that it honors the battles and traditions of Native Americans- and when they do have a good year, the Native Americans should enjoy the publicity that their memory is given due to be honored by that name.

I can't see the problem, or the dishonor, in someone wanting to name a professional sports team after an important part of American History.

Seriously, though, Native Americans should be honored-not insulted, by the idea of their heritage being hallowed enough that one of the most popular franchises in the NFL -one that has won Super Bowls, no less-would name themselves after them.

They are looking at it all wrong.



And we can't help it that the Washington Commanders suck; that's just the way it is.

You can't be serious.

 

[ethiostar]

I think that Native Americans should be proud that their heritage is remembered and honored. The whole reason for using the Commanders name is that it honors the battles and traditions of Native Americans- and when they do have a good year, the Native Americans should enjoy the publicity that their memory is given due to be honored by that name.

I can't see the problem, or the dishonor, in someone wanting to name a professional sports team after an important part of American History.

Seriously, though, Native Americans should be honored-not insulted, by the idea of their heritage being hallowed enough that one of the most popular franchises in the NFL -one that has won Super Bowls, no less-would name themselves after them.

They are looking at it all wrong.



And we can't help it that the Washington Commanders suck; that's just the way it is.

How do you honor a group of people by referring to them using a racial slur? It is equivalent to wanting to honor African Americans and naming a team the so and so "N's". If you really want to honor a group then you name your team by using a term that is acceptable in todays society.

The argument that the term has come to mean something different is a little silly. Yes, words can acquire different meanings over time. For example, the use of the 'N' word by some African Americans as a way to reclaim a very negative term and using it to mean something positive among friends, family etc.... However, it is only positive when used by the right people and under the right circumstances.

To my knowledge the same thing hasn't happened to the term 'Commander'. Even if it did, the only context in which it will be ok to use will be among Natives who have given the term an endearing twist.

 

[ethiostar]

Yeah and I had a Commanders fan tell me one time that the word is derived from a peanut that is indigenous only to the DC area.

The sad thing is...he was dead serious.

Your team was founded in 1932 as the Boston Braves. Is Braves the name of a peanut that is indigenous only to the Boston area? If you research your history you'll find that was also a Boston baseball team's name.

In 1933 they changed the name to Boston Commanders as they played at the same park, Fenway, as the Red Sox. Let me ask you a question. In 1933 was the term Commanders racial?

Their coach was Sonny Dietz and he was indeed supposedly part Indian.

In 1937 they moved to Washington, DC yet decided to keep the name Commanders. So the name was changed when they moved across Boston from Braves Field to Fenway, but it remained the same from Fenway to DC.

Curious, if they had decided to call themselves the Red Sox, if you think the name would have stayed and your team be the Washington Red Sox?

Tribute to Dietz or not, it is clear that the term is an insult and in 1933 it would be even more of one since the country has grown since then. Continuing to use terms like that stunt the growth of the country though and continue to perpetuate racial stereotypes.

The etymology of the word has been around since I believe the 1600's but it always was meant as an insult. When a White person called someone a Commander he was NOT saying you're my equal even though you have red skin. If you believe that wasn't a slur then all I can say is wow.

In the frontier lands many men made their livings as fur trappers. These men also scalped Indians that they had altercations with. They would sell their deerskins, beaverskins, wolfskins, bearskins, and Commanders. Now I ask you, what animal was the last one?

Would you take my challenge from post #17? If not, tell me why not. You've said the word is about the team now, not the slur. Then it shouldn't be any problem should it?

Has the connotation of the word changed as you suggest? Sure, I can see where as people rationalize something it becomes more and more acceptable. Happens all the time. I can come up with many examples and so could you. It doesn't make it right. It never has and it never will.

Are there Native Americans not offended by the word? Yeah, there are. I have a Navajo friend, Russell, who is a Commanders fan. He went to the same High School as my wife, their mascot is the Commanders. He doesn't see any issue with it either. That doesn't make it right either.

The fact remains that the etymology of the word and the history surrounding it are offensive and at times even brutal when you consider the sale of human scalps.

If they changed the name would you stop loving your team? I doubt it.

Then why not do what is right?

Thanks for the history lesson Hos. :write:

 

[Tovya]

How do you honor a group of people by referring to them using a racial slur? It is equivalent to wanting to honor African Americans and naming a team the so and so "N's". If you really want to honor a group then you name your team by using a term that is acceptable in todays society.

The argument that the term has come to mean something different is a little silly. Yes, words can acquire different meanings over time. For example, the use of the 'N' word by some African Americans as a way to reclaim a very negative term and using it to mean something positive among friends, family etc.... However, it is only positive when used by the right people and under the right circumstances.

To my knowledge the same thing hasn't happened to the term 'Commander'. Even if it did, the only context in which it will be ok to use will be among Natives who have given the term an endearing twist.

I won't re-type everything I already wrote (just go to the previous page to read my in-depth opinion) but there is NOTHING the same about the N word and Commanders. I have not been called a Commander my whole life by folks who may not like me...

I have been called other things, but not that. Therefore, although 100 years ago this may have been a provocative word, it has lost such a distinction long ago. The only time the word "Commander" has ever been mentioned in regards to me is when people ask what team in the NFL I hate the most...

I have been called an apple by others within my own racial group, but nothing but "engine" (a goofy southern pronunciation of Indian) by others outside of the Native American circle. Which brings up the word "Indian" over "Native American"... I could care less which one people use. If someone says, "are you an Indian" I don't say "I'm native American" I just say "yes". Who cares?

It's just an ignorant gripe people use to deflect conversation away from the true problems with Native Americans today. "Commanders" or "Indians" ain't the problem folks (once again, see my previous post if you want to know what is).

 

[ethiostar]

Well, I agree... I actually am half Muskogee myself, and I really could care less what they call their team. I mean if it was called the "Indian Killers" I would definitely feel different about the issue.

There is a real problem that does exist though....

Our people for instance live a pretty low standard of life. Instead of whining about team mascots, the leadership on the reservations need to focus their energy on fighting poverty, alcoholism,and gangs on reservations. This is the problem facing Native Americans today... not supposed insulting team names. I lived on one when I was a kid, so I know a thing or two about the problems the youth on reservations face, and I promise team mascots is somewhere near the bottom of the list on real problems.

I respect your perspective and the more pressing and immediate issues facing Native Americans nowadays. I can also sympathaze with your lack of confidence regarding the leadership on the reservations. However, larger political and social issues also need to be addressed. I don't think you have to do one OR the other. YOu don't think negative attitudes, stereotypes and discrimination has played a role in putting Native americans in thier current position?

Also, I personally have never been called the "N" word to my face, but that doesn't mean i condon the usage by others outside of my 'racial' group.

 

[Tovya]

I respect your perspective and the more pressing and immediate issues facing Native Americans nowadays. I can also sympathaze with your lack of confidence regarding the leadership on the reservations. However, larger political and social issues also need to be addressed. I don't think you have to do one OR the other. YOu don't think negative attitudes, stereotypes and discrimination has played a role in putting Native americans in thier current position?

Also, I personally have never been called the "N" word to my face, but that doesn't mean i condon the usage by others outside of my 'racial' group.

I appreciate your support for my position... but most anti-Native American attitudes have pretty much been squashed after the second world war. That doesn't mean that there isn't some still out there, but for the most part it is non-existent now-a-days because most of us dress and wear our hair the same as other Americans. So we don't stand out so much anymore.

If anything, being of "Indian blood" has become a bragging point for people. Almost everyone nowadays claims to have Native American ancestry. Mind you that most of these claims are unfounded, it still shows that it's no longer a mark of shame that it once was.

Popular culture has changed the American mindset on this issue because of movies like 'Dances with Wolves' and 'Last of the Mohicans'. In the modern America, the Indian of old was seen as a strong warrior that lived off the land, and in today's environmentally conscious culture is seen as a respectable figure in history.

Luckily for both of us, Native and African American culture is actually glorified by the new generation. And now kids in American schools are no longer taught that the Indian was a savage murder and the Black man a lowly servant, etc, etc.

Today's generation overwhelmingly realizes that both of our people were victims who don't deserve to be demonized for the sake of promoting anothers race.

None-the-less, focusing our energies on team names or mascots or actions done by fans at games doesn't help us. Fixing real problems (crime, poverty, and alcoholism) is what matters, and everything else should come last. On top of this, polls have shown that 3/4 of Native Americans agree with me that it's not offensive. Overall, we really don't care about sports teams mascots etc.

Ask anyone who grew up on or even lived on a reservation for even a short time, and they will all agree that the war should be against alcoholism first and foremost which is what has caused the poverty and crime. You think that African American ghettos have a lot of bars and liquor stores? You ain't seen nothing until you've spent some time on a reservation. It's disgusting that we've let ourselves hold us back.

Fixing all the collegiate and pro sports teams mascots will not fix that problem. We've just got to get off our butts and stop blaming broken 19th century treaties for all of our problems.

 

[iceberg]

tovya - great points. i guess my own vantage point is i just don't care or see why it's an issue. Commander does not carry the same connotation to me as the "n" word does. i've never been very pc and just think people need to get over it when they feel "slighted" and realize they cannot fit life into their own comfort zone.

we all have to deal with things that hurt us, right? the PC generation has tried to push all that away and pretend life isn't painful. it is. it always will be. i think we'll evolve into something more as time goes by but worried about a team name?

i think people are looking for something to be upset about in the absence of something real to be upset about. or at least less popular like the issues you describe.

just wanted to let you know i really appreciated reading your views. it's rare people look to themselves to fix problems but rather "the world" should fix it for them.

 

[fortdick]

Okay, the Commanders might be offensive to some people, but what about the Packers? There are a number of activist organizations that can find that name offensive.




















PETA
vegans
etc.,

 

[Tovya]

tovya - great points. i guess my own vantage point is i just don't care or see why it's an issue. Commander does not carry the same connotation to me as the "n" word does. i've never been very pc and just think people need to get over it when they feel "slighted" and realize they cannot fit life into their own comfort zone.

we all have to deal with things that hurt us, right? the PC generation has tried to push all that away and pretend life isn't painful. it is. it always will be. i think we'll evolve into something more as time goes by but worried about a team name?

i think people are looking for something to be upset about in the absence of something real to be upset about. or at least less popular like the issues you describe.

just wanted to let you know i really appreciated reading your views. it's rare people look to themselves to fix problems but rather "the world" should fix it for them.

Exactly. I think all down-trodden races in this country have been guilty of this (my own being no exception). We are all way too quick to blame society for our problems instead of just focusing on yourself and making you better.

I live in the big city now, wife and a couple of kids, near 7 figure salary, and I limit alcohol consumption to a few beers on game day. I managed to fix my own family history of the downward spiral in one quick generation... despite the fact there is a team called the Commanders, Seminole fans doing the Tomahawk chop, and Cleveland Indian fans screaming their tomahawk cheer :

 

[ethiostar]

I appreciate your support for my position... but most anti-Native American attitudes have pretty much been squashed after the second world war. That doesn't mean that there isn't some still out there, but for the most part it is non-existent now-a-days because most of us dress and wear our hair the same as other Americans. So we don't stand out so much anymore.

If anything, being of "Indian blood" has become a bragging point for people. Almost everyone nowadays claims to have Native American ancestry. Mind you that most of these claims are unfounded, it still shows that it's no longer a mark of shame that it once was.

Popular culture has changed the American mindset on this issue because of movies like 'Dances with Wolves' and 'Last of the Mohicans'. In the modern America, the Indian of old was seen as a strong warrior that lived off the land, and in today's environmentally conscious culture is seen as a respectable figure in history.

Luckily for both of us, Native and African American culture is actually glorified by the new generation. And now kids in American schools are no longer taught that the Indian was a savage murder and the Black man a lowly servant, etc, etc.

Today's generation overwhelmingly realizes that both of our people were victims who don't deserve to be demonized for the sake of promoting anothers race.

None-the-less, focusing our energies on team names or mascots or actions done by fans at games doesn't help us. Fixing real problems (crime, poverty, and alcoholism) is what matters, and everything else should come last. On top of this, polls have shown that 3/4 of Native Americans agree with me that it's not offensive. Overall, we really don't care about sports teams mascots etc.

Ask anyone who grew up on or even lived on a reservation for even a short time, and they will all agree that the war should be against alcoholism first and foremost which is what has caused the poverty and crime. You think that African American ghettos have a lot of bars and liquor stores? You ain't seen nothing until you've spent some time on a reservation. It's disgusting that we've let ourselves hold us back.

Fixing all the collegiate and pro sports teams mascots will not fix that problem. We've just got to get off our butts and stop blaming broken 19th century treaties for all of our problems.

I guess if the overwhelming majority of Native Americans don't have a problem with it then who am i to argue. However, my position was not to advocate sitting on our butts and blame everything on the past. My intention was to state that while we (on an individual basis and as a group) strive to improve our respective positions in this society by working hard, We can also try and improve the ways in which our people are represented and depicted in the general population.

We have come a long way, as a society, and that should be celebrated. Heck, we might even have an African American president in the White House soon. This reality alone has sent a very positive message to a new generation of young black men and women, as well as other minorities that it can be done. That does not mean that a black man has never been successfull before Obama, it is just that it is very visible to everyone now. ONly in the last couple of decades did we start to see positive minority role models being depicted in the media on a regular basis, which i believe has contributed a lot to a more positive self image of younger generation.

Mind you, it is not that minorities have not contibuted to the making of this great society, only that thier accomplishments have not been very visible, with the exception of civil rights leaders. For example, not many people know that inventions like, the elevator, fire extinguisher, gas masks, lawn mower, mail box, etc....were invented by African Americans. We are not taught this in school, at least most aren't.

 

[Tovya]

I guess if the overwhelming majority of Native Americans don't have a problem with it then who am i to argue. However, my position was not to advocate sitting on our butts and blame everything on the past. My intention was to state that while we (on an individual basis and as a group) strive to improve our respective positions in this society by working hard, We can also try and improve the ways in which our people are represented and depicted in the general population.

We have come a long way, as a society, and that should be celebrated. Heck, we might even have an African American president in the White House soon. This reality alone has sent a very positive message to a new generation of young black men and women, as well as other minorities that it can be done. That does not mean that a black man has never been successfull before Obama, it is just that it is very visible to everyone now. ONly in the last couple of decades did we start to see positive minority role models being depicted in the media on a regular basis, which i believe has contributed a lot to a more positive self image of younger generation.

Mind you, it is not that minorities have not contibuted to the making of this great society, only that thier accomplishments have not been very visible, with the exception of civil rights leaders. For example, not many people know that inventions like, the elevator, fire extinguisher, gas masks, lawn mower, mail box, etc....were invented by African Americans. We are not taught this in school, at least most aren't.

I see your point, and I wholeheartedly agree with you. I think that in the past (and somewhat still in the present) the African-American has been portrayed in a negative light by society and more importantly the entertainment industry. In the pre-60s movies he/she was always portrayed as sub-subservient and ignorant. Although this image has largely been squashed, that image has been replaced by the African American gang banger or pimp. But at the same time, celebrities like Will Smith and Densel Washington are helping erase that image by playing the hero and doer of justice... and that is a great thing.

Although fictional, TV shows and movies play an important role in people's perception of races. Can you imagine Will Smith being considered a beau in 1955? No way... but nowadays it's mostly acceptable for a teenage Caucasian girl to think he is the cat's meow. Or can you imaginea white kid having a Barry Sanders, had he played back then, poster on your wall in 1932? It's really just not that big of a deal anymore. All races and shades of people can be any other races hero now.

A large majority of kids both black and white intermix within each other's cliques without ever thinking a second thought about it. Times have changed for both of us.

My only point of disagreement was that if I say "Commanders" everybody says "NFL football team in the NFC East" but if we say the N word (with an "er" at the end mind you) then we all say "derogatory racial term". The N word is a bad term and has always been one and probably always will be. Commanders was a seldom used negative word in the beginning that has largely been forgotten as such and has been replaced as word for the team we all love to hate.

If I were to be picky, I'd be more offended by the KC Chiefs more anyway (although I'm not in the least bit). I've been called "chief" by white folks more than anything else. I don't know if there are any other Native Americans on this board, but I would bet that if there are, they would agree that they have been called this more anyway.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Cheers.