Labor board: Northwestern University football players can unionize

[erod]

Sorry but the various conferences are not going to go insolvent. Sorry but the multi billion dollar industry will survive having to pay their liabilities and labor just like every other industry. Some very well might fail but since when is this country a free ride for failure?

As for your patronizing tone, I think its up to the student athlete to self determine. If they think $40k a year is 'generous' then so be it but there is a finite value of education and the scholarships the NCAA offers and not everyone thinks it 'generous.'

Privilege? I think you misunderstand leverage. Teams fight over recruits and they still would.

1980s hockey pitted much David vs Goliath as communist states were able to circumvent the professional exclusions so when kids are beating veterans it is exciting but for the most part it was lopsided outcomes.

You just perfectly described professional sports.

That means a scholarship is now compensation, so momma's going to have to foot that $10K per year tax bill. Same for Suzy on the golf team and Bob the bowler. That'll shut a lot of athletes out of college right there.

And what about the student working in the university research department? Does he now get compensated for the discoveries made on behalf of the university? Are all scholarships now taxable?

Athletics help to keep the cost down for all students. Get ready for skyrocketing tuition. And I can't get over your "finite value of education" comment. Not sure even what to do with that.

And the worst effect will be the impact on high school athletics. If college now means $200,000 salaries for top recruits, then the AAU is going more to be more corrupt than ever before and high schools are going to be under more scrutiny than ever regarding how they manage the careers of their participants.

The domino effect of this is endless. And the end result won't even be recognizable.

 

[erod]

I don't claim to make many specific claims but there are overarching realities.

I expect the next step will be for one of these kids to sue the NCAA similar to what Brees, et al did to the NFL a couple of years ago when the NFL repeatedly tried to block the dissolution of the union. A kid might not do it but I bet you one of them does.

Once the NCAA is touched with antitrust scrutiny, they will want the players to unionize so that they can be shielded from antitrust via a CBA. Its a tried and true outcome for every other league.

How do antitrust laws impact universities or the NCAA?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

How do antitrust laws impact universities or the NCAA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_v._Board_of_Regents_of_the_University_of_Oklahoma

Because the NCAA is a trust as determined by the SCOTUS.

 

[erod]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_v._Board_of_Regents_of_the_University_of_Oklahoma

Because the NCAA is a trust as determined by the SCOTUS.

That's in place to regulate schools from creating an unfair playing field among each other.

Yep, that'll be gone, too. There'll be one superconference, while the Texas Techs and New Mexicos bow out altogether eventually. You think North Dakota State can afford to pay its athletes?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You just perfectly described professional sports.

That means a scholarship is now compensation, so momma's going to have to foot that $10K per year tax bill. Same for Suzy on the golf team and Bob the bowler. That'll shut a lot of athletes out of college right there.

And what about the student working in the university research department? Does he now get compensated for the discoveries made on behalf of the university? Are all scholarships now taxable?

Athletics help to keep the cost down for all students. Get ready for skyrocketing tuition. And I can't get over your "finite value of education" comment. Not sure even what to do with that.

And the worst effect will be the impact on high school athletics. If college now means $200,000 salaries for top recruits, then the AAU is going more to be more corrupt than ever before and high schools are going to be under more scrutiny than ever regarding how they manage the careers of their participants.

The domino effect of this is endless. And the end result won't even be recognizable.

Its really easy to figure out what to do with it. Did you go to college? Did you get a bill? The place where you stayed, was there a bill associated with that? How about your food? Did you pay for that? Take all of the living expenses as well as what it costs to go to school and add it up. Is that a finite number? Bravo!

I also notice your communist outlook on student athletes be used to make things cheaper for everyone else.

The slippery slope argument is baseless fear mongering. Unrecognizable? They changing the rules of the game now? The thing is that you don't know what it will look like so you wring your hands but uncertainty is not basis for panic.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That's in place to regulate schools from creating an unfair playing field among each other.

Yep, that'll be gone, too. There'll be one superconference, while the Texas Techs and New Mexicos bow out altogether eventually. You think North Dakota State can afford to pay its athletes?

We don't even know what the pay scales would be or anything. You are being melodramatic. Rosters sizes are what they are.

 

[Doomsday101]

That's in place to regulate schools from creating an unfair playing field among each other.

Yep, that'll be gone, too. There'll be one superconference, while the Texas Techs and New Mexicos bow out altogether eventually. You think North Dakota State can afford to pay its athletes?

Bad part is as some school who are not big money making schools shut down their programs it is the kids who get hurt. Kids who without the benefit of a scholarship will not be able to attend college.

 

[Doomsday101]

We don't even know what the pay scales would be or anything. You are being melodramatic. Rosters sizes are what they are.

I don't think he is and this is not a professional occupation these are students. You can't just come in a play football or basketball you are required to go to class to make the grade. This is not a profession, vast majority will never play at the next level

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bad part is as some school who are not big money making schools shut down their programs it is the kids who get hurt. Kids who without the benefit of a scholarship will not be able to attend college.

Again, we don't know what the pay scales would be. I have a little more faith in todays college students than you do apparently.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't think he is and this is not a professional occupation these are students. You can't just come in a play football or basketball you are required to go to class to make the grade. This is not a profession, vast majority will never play at the next level

Do you know what mututally exclusive means? One can be both a student and an employee. This is semantic games you are playing.

You can call them whatever you want but ESPN is paying the SEC schools to watch the players. The tickets at Darryl Royal Stadium are paid for in cash to watch those players. The schools make money on the basis of what those kids do. It is what it is.

 

[erod]

Its really easy to figure out what to do with it. Did you go to college? Did you get a bill? The place where you stayed, was there a bill associated with that? How about your food? Did you pay for that? Take all of the living expenses as well as what it costs to go to school and add it up. Is that a finite number? Bravo!

I also notice your communist outlook on student athletes be used to make things cheaper for everyone else.

The slippery slope argument is baseless fear mongering. Unrecognizable? They changing the rules of the game now? The thing is that you don't know what it will look like so you wring your hands but uncertainty is not basis for panic.

You're talking about hard costs. I'm talking about the value thereafter. So we're just on different wavelengths regarding the value of education. Misunderstanding there.

The rest is not fearmongering. Unions spread like malignant cancer until they suck the life out of the business they oppose. It works OK for pro sports, but that's because the leagues are single entities. In colleges, however, each institution will likely have its own union, so the rules could be different at every school. That negates the NCAA altogether. If this gets to the Supreme Court, the NCAA is finished.

I'm a capitalist, and this isn't capitalist thinking, I realize. However, collegiate sports can't operate on a truly capitalistic basis without eating its own.

Therefore, the scene will be unrecognizable because collegiate sports will completely cease to exist as we've known it. Most university budgets simply can't absorb a unionized athletic program and will drop athletics altogether.

The purest answer is simple: minor leagues for each sport, and no college scholarhip sports of any kind.

 

[Doomsday101]

Again, we don't know what the pay scales would be. I have a little more faith in todays college students than you do apparently.

No I see students being lead but some union chiefs and lawyers who don't give a damn about anything but the money they put in their own pocket. College football has been talking about giving student athletes money since it is almost impossible for them to play, go to class and work and I'm all for it but unlike Pro Sport players would all get the same amount not big money for the QB and this kid over here gets leftovers. There is nothing good about making college football unionized, again this is not a business like Ford or Apple or some other corporation it is centers of higher education. Many that are state funded and not private like Northwestern or ND

 

[Doomsday101]

Do you know what mututally exclusive means? One can be both a student and an employee. This is semantic games you are playing.

You can call them whatever you want but ESPN is paying the SEC schools to watch the players. The tickets at Darryl Royal Stadium are paid for in cash to watch those players. The schools make money on the basis of what those kids do. It is what it is.

Yes and the benefits to the kids is to get an education that without football they likely would never get a chance to have. This is not semi pro it is college where kids go and learn. Yes they make money that money goes back into these programs and to other sports. Most will leave school for the business world not pro sports and that diploma allows them a big opportunity to succeed in life.

 

[Doomsday101]

You're talking about hard costs. I'm talking about the value thereafter. So we're just on different wavelengths regarding the value of education. Misunderstanding there.

The rest is not fearmongering. Unions spread like malignant cancer until they suck the life out of the business they oppose. It works OK for pro sports, but that's because the leagues are single entities. In colleges, however, each institution will likely have its own union, so the rules could be different at every school. That negates the NCAA altogether. If this gets to the Supreme Court, the NCAA is finished.

I'm a capitalist, and this isn't capitalist thinking, I realize. However, collegiate sports can't operate on a truly capitalistic basis without eating its own.

Therefore, the scene will be unrecognizable because collegiate sports will completely cease to exist as we've known it. Most university budgets simply can't absorb a unionized athletic program and will drop athletics altogether.

The purest answer is simple: minor leagues for each sport, and no college scholarhip sports of any kind.

Even without unions in college sports there are many programs that due to cost have been dropped.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bad part is as some school who are not big money making schools shut down their programs it is the kids who get hurt. Kids who without the benefit of a scholarship will not be able to attend college.

The thing that you guys are failing to see is how this works out. If the student athletes organize an collectively bargain with the NCAA then their constituents are not just going to be the football teams.

To me the next step is clear, some kid from Standford or Notre Dame needs to sue the NCAA. That is going to force the NCAA to collectively bargain and then there will be a mad rush of students athletes trying to get in on it. The thing is already in the hands of the NLRB and that is what they do.

I would hope at the end of the day, the student athletes that currently are being subsidized get a seat at the table. However this turns out its going to be over the course of a decade that it unfolds.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't claim to make many specific claims but there are overarching realities.

I expect the next step will be for one of these kids to sue the NCAA similar to what Brees, et al did to the NFL a couple of years ago when the NFL repeatedly tried to block the dissolution of the union. A kid might not do it but I bet you one of them does.

Once the NCAA is touched with antitrust scrutiny, they will want the players to unionize so that they can be shielded from antitrust via a CBA. Its a tried and true outcome for every other league.

So Fuzzy, I'm unclear here. Did you read the findings or did you not? If so, what did you read in the findings that would lead you to believe my opinion is ill informed or that I am grasping at straws?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You're talking about hard costs. I'm talking about the value thereafter. So we're just on different wavelengths regarding the value of education. Misunderstanding there.

The rest is not fearmongering. Unions spread like malignant cancer until they suck the life out of the business they oppose. It works OK for pro sports, but that's because the leagues are single entities. In colleges, however, each institution will likely have its own union, so the rules could be different at every school. That negates the NCAA altogether. If this gets to the Supreme Court, the NCAA is finished.

I'm a capitalist, and this isn't capitalist thinking, I realize. However, collegiate sports can't operate on a truly capitalistic basis without eating its own.

Therefore, the scene will be unrecognizable because collegiate sports will completely cease to exist as we've known it. Most university budgets simply can't absorb a unionized athletic program and will drop athletics altogether.

The purest answer is simple: minor leagues for each sport, and no college scholarhip sports of any kind.

You are talking about something that is of personal value to you. That is great and all but I look to objective measures. At the end of the day you are looking at it as an investment.

And I am sorry but you are ignoring history. I have read a whole lot of sports law over the years. It's a hobby that I picked up during the various strikes and lockouts. All of the 'firms will fail' arguments were used in every sport. Its a go to argument. I look at the leagues now and I can only shake my head.

This does not have to be bend over the NCAA time. The college presidents can agree or not agree to whatever they like. Those kids deserve a seat at that particular table. All of them. This condescending BS about whats good for them while those same presidents make billions of dollars is wrong.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So Fuzzy, I'm unclear here. Did you read the findings or did you not? If so, what did you read in the findings that would lead you to believe my opinion is ill informed or that I am grasping at straws?

I cannot find it. I will have to go back and look as to what I was speaking of specifically. I am having three conversations in this thread.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

You are talking about something that is of personal value to you. That is great and all but I look to objective measures. At the end of the day you are looking at it as an investment.

And I am sorry but you are ignoring history. I have read a whole lot of sports law over the years. It's a hobby that I picked up during the various strikes and lockouts. All of the 'firms will fail' arguments were used in every sport. Its a go to argument. I look at the leagues now and I can only shake my head.

This does not have to be bend over the NCAA time. The college presidents can agree or not agree to whatever they like. Those kids deserve a seat at that particular table. All of them. This condescending BS about whats good for them while those same presidents make billions of dollars is wrong.

I don't really think historical arguments apply here. In the past, the continuity point was that everybody wanted the Sport to continue on. In this case, I don't think we will see that. I think we will see all but the Power Schools and perhaps some of the Major Independents want to get out of the business of College Athletics. That's a different thought process.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You don't understand the position the NCAA is in. This is an excellent article.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/co...0327/ncaa-athletes-union-ruling-northwestern/

Now, the schools -- which, let's face it, are the NCAA -- must choose. Do they make a deal with the athletes? Or do they risk any or all of the following?

• An ultimately unfavorable ruling in the O'Bannon case that would essentially make it illegal to televise a college football game without explicitly compensating the participants.

• An ultimately unfavorable NLRB ruling that would recognize players as employees. That would require schools to sink money into worker's compensation, but it also could have a much bigger impact. If football players are employees, then the schools are employers. From a legal standpoint, they would be very much in the football business. The football business is not part of a school's educational mission, and someone in Congress might look at all those cable-network dollars and decide it's time schools started paying taxes on that revenue.

• An ultimately unfavorable ruling in the case Kessler is bringing, which essentially would declare the entire business model for major college sports illegal.

The schools and NCAA could fight these cases, but there will only be more. The lawyers smell money, and they aren't going away until they get it. The players are compensated with tuition, room and board, but they haven't gotten a raise since the 1950s. Now, they're the stars of a wildly popular series of television shows. In a courtroom, outside the insular system that is college athletics, the NCAA's arguments sound ludicrous. In February, an attorney representing the NCAA tried to claim that television broadcasts are protected by the first amendment. You could test his claim by bringing a camera and streaming the Michigan-Ohio State game on the Internet, but ESPN -- which pays several million dollars to televise the game -- and the Big Ten would put the lie to it by burying you in cease-and-desist letters that threaten very costly legal action.

Unfortunately for the NCAA, that is its cornerstone argument in the O'Bannon case. Meanwhile, Northwestern faces an uphill climb on appeal. Graduation rates mean nothing to the NLRB. Neither does the argument that players get an exceptional educational opportunity. What matters is whether there is an exchange of compensation that provides a financial benefit to the employer. "This is not even close," said Ramogi Huma, the college sports reformer who helped the Northwestern players form the College Athletes Players Association. "It's not even a gray area. They lost every argument they made."