Let's all just get it off our chest; Carp was a bad draftpick

[kartr]

I personally wanted Marcus McNeill and Greg Jennings.

Right now, looks like both are starting for their teams.

Exactly, and we're having receiver depth problems and offensive line questions still and linebacker wasn't anywhere close to being one of our top needs. The Pats got linebacker Pierre Woods from Michigan as an undrafted free agent for their 3-4 defense and are tickled pink about it. We passed on several quality players that we needed more than Carpenter, only those players fathers' didn't play for Parcells.

 

[superpunk]

Let's say we did this:

traded down to 32 for the last pick in the 2nd round and our actual draft went like this:

1st (32) Bobby Carpenter
2nd Anthony Fasano
2nd Pat Watkins
3rd Jason Hatcher
4th Pat McQuistan
5th Oliver Hoyte
6th Sam Hurd
7th EJ Whitley
7th Miles Austin

Feel better?

That looks like a great draft. :

 

[dfense]

Why don't you let him play first.

It is a terrible thing to have such depth at a position like that. Hey, let's blame Parcells for that to!

 

[baj1dallas]

I think people fail to appreciate that linebacker is a position that players develop into over a few seasons. Brady James is a great example but so is EJ Henderson at Minnesota...many people were calling him a bust his rookie year, and look what he did to the Cowboys the other week.

I don't know that I believe a rookie RT would have come in and beaten out Colombo. You have to keep in mind Colombo is a big, big guy, and he's always had the ability to be a starting caliber tackle. Just couldn't get healthy. I think Parcells would look at two guys who are about equal and go with the guy that's an inch taller and 10 pounds heavier. And Fabini would have made the team anyway as he's got experience at both tackle spots.

So while I was never particularly high on Bobby Carpenter at the spot the Cowboys took him, he wasn't a bad choice. I doubt you'd honestly be all that happy with McNeil if we got him and he struggled a little in training camp or whatever, you'd be all over him too.

 

[kartr]

I can only assume this was an effort to get a pep talk from the forums.

Bradie James spent 2 years doing diddly squat for this team and I really thought he was gonna be cut in TC year 3. Now he's a legit Pro Bowl candidate for what is expected to be a top 5 defense.

Carpenter can play inside, outside and on special teams.

He isn't a starter but it hardly means he was a bad draft pick.

It does seem we would have been better off to look at one of those other positions more closely but in 2 years when the players are at their NFL selves this notion may be comical.

Greg Jennings dang sure wouldn't be starting here.

Marcus McNeill? Not sure at all he would. And if he didnt start could he be the "swing" tackle? I highly doubt it. He'd get McQ's spot at worst but who will be a better player in 5 years? Its very hard to say with OL.

Bottom line is this team is simply good and it would be dificult to start on it, only the 2nd rounder is starting for sure and thats because we changed formations, he certianly isn't bumping Jason Witten. Pat Watkins will get time but when he does replace Keith Davis he will be replacing an undrafted free agent not a first round pick or high priced free agent. We cut Boiman and traded away Shanle because we are simply deep at LB.

That's just it. We were tood deep at linebacker, but not deep enough at receiver, quarterback,OL. Parcells seems to over-emphasize some positions and under-emphasize others which shows some inconsistency and confusion about how to achieve balance.

 

[iceberg]

I'm not calling him a bust so calm down.
And don't give me this transition stuff.

Don't we have a few guys dressing and even starting from our 2nd round draftpick on?

Our 1st rounder looks like he may not even dress for some games early on.
And I didn't see ANYTHING from him in the preseason.

Let's face it, it seems like a bad pick.

let's face it - SOME PEOPLE seem to think if the world isn't saved in good old macgeyver (sp?) fashion, it's a waste. if the war on terrorism isn't over by the 10pm news, we lost. if your popcorn isn't done in 2 minutes, it's bad popcorn.

i get really sick and tired of the short-term focus and "gratify me instantly, damn it!!!" focus people want to have. he's not even played 1 freaking down in the NFL and you wanna call it him bad pick.

maybe he's not starting cause our talent has come up that far and now it's time for him to push himself again.

hell, i wanted to go OL but we didn't. does that mean i must bemoan the pics we DID make? no - i'll sit back and see what they will do over the next few years just like i would if i DID see an OL get picked.

chill out homer. go make some instant coffee and order some pizza to be there NOW and be happy. the real world however can somtimes take time to come to it's potential.

no matter how mad that makes you.

 

[superpunk]

I think people fail to appreciate that linebacker is a position that players develop into over a few seasons. Brady James is a great example but so is EJ Henderson at Minnesota...many people were calling him a bust his rookie year, and look what he did to the Cowboys the other week.

I don't know that I believe a rookie RT would have come in and beaten out Colombo. You have to keep in mind Colombo is a big, big guy, and he's always had the ability to be a starting caliber tackle. Just couldn't get healthy. I think Parcells would look at two guys who are about equal and go with the guy that's an inch taller and 10 pounds heavier. And Fabini would have made the team anyway as he's got experience at both tackle spots.

So while I was never particularly high on Bobby Carpenter at the spot the Cowboys took him, he wasn't a bad choice. I doubt you'd honestly be all that happy with McNeil if we got him and he struggled a little in training camp or whatever, you'd be all over him too.

I know he's developing, and I'm a UMD fan, but what did Henderson do to us the other night? lol.

 

[Barrister]

I also disagree that Carp is a bust. I think the pick makes complete sense. Look, the strength of this team is its defense, and we have undergone a complete conversion to a 3-4 defense. And from what I've heard/read/seen on TV, you can never have enough good linebackers in a 3-4. The Steelers have always had great depth at LB. What I mean is, you need 4 good LBs, and in some cases, more. Depth is key.

Now, at the end of last year, it was woefully apparent we didn't have anywhere near what we needed at LB. Ware and Bradie James were the only surefire starters. Burnett was an injured rookie, Singleton was an aging, injured vet, and Fowler and Shanle were good rotation guys, not starter-quality.

So what do we do? We sign Ayodele. We draft Carpenter. We convert Ellis to OLB. And now Burnett is healthy. Whereas before we were lacking in capable 3-4 LBs, now we have them in spades. And that's a good thing. We have youth, talent, versatility. And Parcells loves it, b/c this is how he wants the 3-4 to look.

The way I see it, every coach has his M-O. Jimmy Johnson loved a huge rotation at DL, so that he could keep subsituting DLinemen into the 4th quarter to keep them fresh. At his heyday, we had Tolbert, Haley, Jeffcoat, Lett, Maryland, Casillas, Henning, and Jones. That talent and depth was every bit as important to our Super Bowl success as anything (IMHO).

With Parcells, the old LB coach, he wants a strong stable of LBs to use in his 3-4. Sure, we could have waited another round, or traded down. But he tagged Carpenter as his guy. He's been right on with Spears, Ware, Canty, and possibly Hatcher, Burnett, Ratliff, and Watkins. I think our recent string of Defensive player picks warrants some benefit of the doubt for Parcells.

I am as excited about our team as I've been since the early 90s, and I think that this time it'll be the defense leading the way, and Carp will be every bit a part of that. Just my two cents.

 

[DLCassidy]

Exactly, and we're having receiver depth problems and offensive line questions still and linebacker wasn't anywhere close to being one of our top needs. The Pats got linebacker Pierre Woods from Michigan as an undrafted free agent for their 3-4 defense and are tickled pink about it. We passed on several quality players that we needed more than Carpenter, only those players fathers' didn't play for Parcells.

Ok, let's not go over the top here. Carpenter may well be a Patriot right now if we had passed on him. Or a Giant. Or a Jet. It's not like he wasn't well regarded. And are you saying you knew Greg Ellis would be the starter at OLB? What if that hadn't worked and we'd passed on Carpenter? No, I get the LOGIC of the pick, I just wish we were seeing a little more.

As for receivers, there isn't a receiver in this draft that wouldn't have been a bigger reach than Carpenter at 18. Same for OL. If you knew for a fact we had trade down offers and we turned them down you might have a discussion point. But, as usual, you don't.

 

[kartr]

Just to clarify.

I wouldn't have wanted McNeill or Jennings in the 1st. But I would have loved a trade down for either.

And once again, I'm not calling Carp a bust.
I'm simply stating that I remember Ware having all of us on the edge of our seat last season and creating more of that buzz with his preseason play.
That's kinda what you want from a 1st round pick.

Carp has created nothing close to that level of anticipation.

I understood perfectly that you didn't mean draft Jennings in the first and I think that they did too, it's just that when we criticize and second guess BP, the homers look at it as disloyalty. This is a board intended for the free exchange of ideas about football.

 

[conner01]

the draft is not for intant gratification. it's to build your team for the future.i would rather have the best player even if there is no spot for him to start, than to get a lesser player just so we can have a little gratification in his rookie camp.
patience folks

 

[kartr]

Carson Palmer didnt have the preseason buzz his rookie year either. Culpepper, McNabb, Fabian Washington, Julian Peterson, Marcus Spears, Kyle Vanden Bosch, Vince Wilfork all showed nothing at all training camp thier rookie years. Now they are all either stars or on the verge of being stars.


Also, Ware there is a huge difference in picking 11 and picking 18. And, there is a big difference in what we "see" from those players when some are starting and some arent.

There were better players than Carpenter at 18 and there were better players than Carpenter at 32 too. He was one of the guys at Ohio ST, not the guy.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

I understood perfectly that you didn't mean draft Jennings in the first and I think that they did too, it's just that when we criticize and second guess BP, the homers look at it as disloyalty. This is a board intended for the free exchange of ideas about football.

Or it could be the idea that there was no need at this time to draft a WR at the first or second round.

I could see the argument for O-Linemen.

Eitherway, it is nothing more than a boohoo post about carpenter by someone who is having a knee jerk reaction.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

There were better players than Carpenter at 18 and there were better players than Carpenter at 32 too. He was one of the guys at Ohio ST, not the guy.

LOL and THE guy at Ohio state, from what I have heard, is not even the best LB that the team who drafted him got in the draft.

From what I have heard a LB they got later in the draft has looked better.

Just proves it is early and the draft is a crap shoot even if it is or is not a "can't miss The Guy" player.

You draft the player who you think will be the best for your team in the area you fill he will best fit.

You do your best and hope for the best.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

That is the draft.

 

[kartr]

But doesn't that kind of patience and contribution sound more like a 2nd or 3rd round draft choice (like James) than a first?

I'm just saying, good LBers can be found all over the draft.
If you're going to spend for one in the 1st, he should show something quickly and contribute immediately, IMO.

Well said again, I think you're saying that we should have went after the Best player available at 18 and you're right. But we made the same mistake with Fasano and Hatcher. There were better players available that we could have used. It wasn't until day two that the picks made sense.

 

[QT]

I feel you quickdraw. I wasn't on the Bobby Carpenter bandwagon either. Andy Kantplayinthenfl'er (I think that how you spell it) came to mind. He was can't miss LB from Ohio St that came out the same year Dat came out.

 

[WilmingtonHeel]

And who is to say Carp was the top player on the board at the 18th pick. Maybe not yours but none of us are paid for these descisions we haven't played the 1st game yet. Wait till December, Every year we go through this what we should've done,who we should've pick you can't go back. We have a good team with alot of talent season is about to start let's enjoy it

 

[iceberg]

the draft is not for intant gratification. it's to build your team for the future.i would rather have the best player even if there is no spot for him to start, than to get a lesser player just so we can have a little gratification in his rookie camp.
patience folks

words of wisdom, conner. : ) unfortunately many people today want it "now" - whatever *it* is. otherwise it's a bust.

 

[superpunk]

There were better players than Carpenter at 18 and there were better players than Carpenter at 32 too. He was one of the guys at Ohio ST, not the guy.

He was the guy that allowed THE guy to be THE guy. He more of a complete LB, Hawk is a playmaker. Carpenter was covering TEs and making plays in the run game while Hawk wreaked havoc.

 

[kartr]

And neither of them are good enough. There was no better pick we could have made, where we were sitting, with what we knew at the time. At the time, we needed a starting OLB. Ellis proceeded to tear it up. So, we have possibly the deepest LB corp in the league, on a defense where it's all about LBs.

I fail to see a problem.

The problem is that having the best corps of linebackers is not going to win you anything, it's about balance and that means gradually adding parts to benefit the whole team, not just one unit. Over emphasizing linebackers and tight ends and neglecting the other units aint going to cut it. We have just 2 qb's, one of whom has never started an NFL game and is an undrafted free agent and our best linemen were here before Parcells came here and I like our rbs', but if Julius Jones goes down again with an injury, our running game is in big trouble. Barber is strictly a backup because he has no speed or moves. Yes, we've got maybe the deepest linebacking core in the NFL, but we're paper thin at receiver and extremely fragile at the OL and qb positions.