Lets Ponder the Patriots Deflationgate Issue

What podcast was it on. Link takes me to mobile app but then nothing.

yeh im getting it to open on my laptop but not my tablet/mobile.

from what i gather its from espn, audio,SVP and Russillo program

vanpeltaudio_2015-01-26-184012-8006-0-12-0.64k(1)

thats all i could gather. i will upload it onto a youtube vid if i have to in a bit so it can be more widely accessible if that will help.
 
yeh im getting it to open on my laptop but not my tablet/mobile.

from what i gather its from espn, audio,SVP and Russillo program

vanpeltaudio_2015-01-26-184012-8006-0-12-0.64k(1)

thats all i could gather. i will upload it onto a youtube vid if i have to in a bit so it can be more widely accessible if that will help.

Thanks. I'll search the app for it. Computer is on the fritz so can't just hop on to it right now.
 
yeh im getting it to open on my laptop but not my tablet/mobile.

from what i gather its from espn, audio,SVP and Russillo program

vanpeltaudio_2015-01-26-184012-8006-0-12-0.64k(1)

thats all i could gather. i will upload it onto a youtube vid if i have to in a bit so it can be more widely accessible if that will help.

Got it.

Copied your original link. Pasted to safari and it once again opened the App Store. Went back to Safari and clicked on address bar. Dragged it down to "request desktop version" and the page opened.

Here's the direct audio link listed for the show.

http://cdn16.castfire.com/audio/303...spn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12232865&s=5L8r1
 
Got it.

Copied your original link. Pasted to safari and it once again opened the App Store. Went back to Safari and clicked on address bar. Dragged it down to "request desktop version" and the page opened.

Here's the direct audio link listed for the show.

http://cdn16.castfire.com/audio/303/2117/7827/2426312/vanpeltaudio_2015-01-26-184012-8006-0-4-0.64k.mp3?cdn_id=33&uuid=24a205d57167f0c5640f99a786e9a785&referer=http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12232865&s=5L8r1

sweet! ill put up a youtube link in a bit for more exposure. its some good stuff!
 
http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/nfl-deflategate-new-england-patriots-deflated-footballs-super-bowl-49/

This was actually in a Peter King article from a Pats fan

Nerd alert: What I have summarized below is the comprehensive, correct gas law predictions and real-world analysis for “deflategate”. It is explained from the basic ideal gas law, but anyone can hopefully follow. I go through it very clearly, I believe. While a great many people have posted the gas law calculations on the internet, most have been wrong in that they confused absolute pressure with relative pressure. Absolute pressure takes barometric pressure into account.

This post has been corrected after its first posting to include the actual reported barometric pressure in the first half and also to focus only on the pressure/temperature issue, since the "expanding wet leather issue" is harder to model.

The ideal gas law: PV = nRT
The ideal gas law modeled for two conditions 1 and 2: P1V1 = nRT1 and P2V2 = nRT2
Solving for Volume V in each case: V1 = nRT1/P1 and V2 = nRT2/P2

Now we will assume that V1 = V2; that is, the volume of the football will not change during the game; therefore; nRT1/P1 = nRT2/P2;
Dividing each side by the constants n and R; leaves: T1/P1 = T2/P2

Now let‘s determine the real values based upon:
T1 = initial temperature of inflation (indoors) = room temperature, likely equals 72 degrees F = 22.22 degrees C = 295.37 Kelvin;
T2 = final temperature = game time temperature (published value at kickoff) = 51 degrees F = 10.56 degrees C = 283.71 Kelvin
P1 = absolute pressure at the onset, equals relative pressure + atmospheric pressure, and since reported atmospheric pressure at the time point nearest kickoff time, as reported by Weather Underground, equals 29.75 in = 14.61 psi at 6:53 PM;
P1 equals 12.50 psi + 14.61 psi, = 27.11 psi

All that we need to do is solve for P2:
Since T1/P1 = T2/P2; thereciprocal is true and P1/T1 = P2/T2
Multiplying both sides by T2 solves for P2:
P2 = P1T2/T1

Plugging in the actual values for the known quantities P1, T1 and T2;
P2 = (27.11) x (283.71) / (295.37) = 26.04 = absolute pressure of the football at the end condition (halftime).
Relative pressure = absolute pressure – atmospheric pressure = 26.04 – 14.70 = 11.34 psi
Therefore, the drop in relative pressure P2 – P1 thus equals 12.50 – 11.34 = 1.16 psi

Plain English: By the ideal gas law, a football inflated to 12.50 psi at 72 degrees F and cooled to 51 degrees F will have a final pressure of 11.34 psi, thus a loss of 1.16 psi.

Carnegie Mellon Finding #1: Footballs inflated to 12.50 psi at 75 degrees F and cooled to 50 degrees F had a final pressure of 11.4 psi, a loss of 1.1 psi (summarized in the pdf document at http://www.headsmartlabs.com/
Conclusion #1: Experiment seems to match ideal gas law prediction rather closely. Note that they used a slightly larger temperature drop, 25 degrees, not 21 degrees. We do not know room temperature in the ref’s room, though, anyway.

Carnegie Mellon Finding #2: Footballs inflated to 12.50 psi at 75 degrees F and cooled to 50 degrees F and then soaked with water had a final pressure of 10.7 psi, a loss of 1.8 psi.
Conclusion #2: A second factor, the expansion of a football as it gets wet, also leads to a drop in psi. This factor contributes another 0.7 psi in pressure drop. This in essence shows that the “constant volume assumption” of the ideal gas law is not fully valid since a football is not infinitely rigid.

One important caveat on the Carnegie Mellon Experiment #2: In this experiment they immersed the football in water for a time. Is that analogous to heavy rain, or is it overkill? That criticism concerns me a bit. The real world effect of a heavy rain is probably between their dry ball result (1.1 psi) and the soaked ball result (1.8 psi). But to err on the side of caution, let’s ignore the water effect for now and go with the dry ball result: 1.1 psi drop at Carnegie Mellon, in agreement with the 1.16 psi calculation.

Plain English ultimate conclusion for the Patriots footballs: It would be reasonable to expect, based on both experimental results and ideal gas law calculations, for a pressure drop of at least ~1.2 psi to have occurred within the Patriots footballs in the first half of the AFCCG, based on the known game time conditions and the observation that the footballs were inflated to 12.5 (relative) psi at room temperature.

Aha though- what about the Colts footballs? We don’t know their initial pressure, unfortunately, but if we assume that they were at the maximum legal pressure of 13.5 psi relative pressure (since they apparentlyknew that ball pressure loss would be monitored), we can calculate the expected pressure drop.
T1 = 295.37 Kelvin, as before
T2 = 283.71 Kelvin, as before
P1 = absolute pressure at the onset = 13.50 psi + 14.61 psi, = 28.11 psi
P2 = (28.11) x (283.71) / (295.37) = 27.00
Relative pressure = 27.00 – 14.70 = 12.30 psi

Thus the Colts footballs should have been a final pressure of 12.3 psi. The legal lower limit is 12.5 psi. The Colts footballs should have been illegal by 0.2 psi.

Question: Would a referee call a reading of 12.3 rather than 12.5 to be clearly out of specifications and illegal?Maybe yes, maybe no. It certainly depends on both the accuracy and precision of the pressure gauge. A digital readout often shows significant drift/fluctuation in the last digit. If in real time the ref saw values pop up such as these: 12.3, 12.4, 12.5, 12.4, 12.3, 12.4; he would likely say: It looks to be about 12.5; pass! Similarly at the beginning, if he saw in real time 13.5, 13.6, 13.5, 13.6, 13.5, 13.6; he would likely say: It looks to be about 13.5, pass!

Final conclusion: It is not unreasonable at all to assume that the Patriots balls would fail the inspection and the Colts balls would (barely) pass or (barely) fail, based upon logical assumptions of inflation levels and inflation temperatures in concert with the issues of temperature-related gas expansion, and the human-element: deciding when (and if) you are sure about that last digit on the pressure gauge.

Not taken into account at all in this analysis is the ball preparation (rubbing) procedure. Thus in essence I am assuming that the ball preparation procedure does not affect psi in the least, which is Bill Nye’s assertion. To me, a 1 psi drop based on friction, even severe friction, seems quite a bit high, because it would correspond to a 25 C temperature rise. I disagree, though, that the effect must be zero. It is probably non-zero, but unknown and unknowable unless we knew the exact ball prep procedure. Still, it is not needed to explain a pressure drop of the magnitude seen. Also ignored is the expanding wet football concept. This is likely real but harder to quantify.

A key piece of the puzzle to nail this is the actual ref-recorded data for the Colts footballs, very clearly.
 
It would really stink to have to deal with a tainted win

As a Yankees fan living in Maryland, I've had to live with the Jeff Maier/Jeter HR from the 1996 ALCS. It wasn't cheating per se, but that win has a huge asterisk that will never go away.

And rightfully so. One of the worst missed calls in MLB history. Its on par with the tuck rule for the Pats, if not worse.
 
Fact of the matter is it's looking more and more like the NFL has zero evidence against the Patriots. It's also being scientifically demonstrated (most recently by Carnegie Mellon) that a natural 2 psi drop in those conditions is perfectly plausible.

All the whining about "then why weren't the Colts balls underinflated?!?!" is ridiculous. Not only could they treat their balls differently, they also may have started higher than the Patriots started.

The NFL is coming to the realization that the Patriots did nothing wrong but they don't know how to handle it since there is so much faux outrage from the haters. People are demanding the death penalty for someone who, at worst, got caught doing 78 on PGBT.

Stay tuned.


Triple_facepalm.png
 
To stay in the range the NFL had the Colts balls could be no more than 1psi higher than the Patriots. the range was 12.5 to 13.5 psi. So using your own "scientifically demonstrated" drop the Colts balls would be no more than 11.5 psi at halftime and also under deflated, or they were over inflated and not in range before the game when they were checked. It does not take a scientific genius to do that math, you just choose not to see it.

For someone who independently verifies things you seem to really struggle seeing things beyond what you want to see (i.e. you fumbles totals and type from the other thread).

You literally have zero idea what the NFL has, so why not just wait and see.

Truth-has-no-agenda.jpg
 
No it's not. Are we going to be concerned about rules just for the sake of following rules or are going to be concerned about them because they effect competition? This score indicates the rule clearly did not effect the competition. Following rules just for the sake of following rules is BS.

So why have rules?

And why would somebody break the rules unless they thot it helped them, which is actually effecting the competition and the integrity of fair and level competition.

Your post makes absolutely no sense. Unless you're Tom Brady or Belicheat . . . . .
 
Trust me, I read your dribble about what could happen and it's all hypothetical. The balls have been tampered with for years but you can't give me one example where it actually made a difference.

Now it's dribble?

Listen, if the balls have been tampered with for years, then one would figure out that it MUST make a difference. Hopefully we can all agree on that conclusion.

The fact that this is the first time ever that PSI has been a topic after a game means that I (nor anyone else on this site) can give a particular example.

Surely you can figure that out for yourself.

But just the fact that, as you say, the balls have been tampered with for years tells us that it MUST make a difference, or they would not do it.
 
So why have rules?

And why would somebody break the rules unless they thot it helped them, which is actually effecting the competition and the integrity of fair and level competition.

Your post makes absolutely no sense. Unless you're Tom Brady or Belicheat . . . . .

Why have rules? Because without them some of you wouldn't even get out of bed because you'd have no guidelines for what follows.

You are actually saying the Patriots won because they cheated. LOL :lmao: 45-7 :facepalm:
 
Now it's dribble?

Listen, if the balls have been tampered with for years, then one would figure out that it MUST make a difference. Hopefully we can all agree on that conclusion.

The fact that this is the first time ever that PSI has been a topic after a game means that I (nor anyone else on this site) can give a particular example.

Surely you can figure that out for yourself.

But just the fact that, as you say, the balls have been tampered with for years tells us that it MUST make a difference, or they would not do it.

The only reason I even know about balls being tampered with is because of confessions of doing so years after the fact, otherwise none of us would know about it. QB's do it because they think it gives them an edge but that edge has never been factually proven. Even this time when the tampering was detected, their is absolutely zero proof it effected the game.

Athletes are a superstitious breed. They do all kinds of ridiculous things in the believe they get some sort of edge by doing them when in reality there is no scientific value in what they did. Taking 1 psi out of a ball may make a QB think he can throw it better but where is the science to prove it? You'd think that would be easy to prove but if so, why hasn't someone done it? Your answer is "figure it out for yourself". I have and I say it is BS.
 
Athletes are a superstitious breed. They do all kinds of ridiculous things in the believe they get some sort of edge by doing them when in reality there is no scientific value in what they did. Taking 1 psi out of a ball may make a QB think he can throw it better but where is the science to prove it?

So you are thinking that teams deflate footballs for superstitious reasons? You're thinking that Tom Brady is superstitious about the PSI of the footballs he throws?

That's harder to believe than them doing it illegally to gain an advantage.

Actually, my original comment to you was about breaking rules.
Rules are made for a reason, and in sports they are pretty adamant about making sure everybody adheres to all of the rules. That's why they have the rules committee, officials, umpires, referees, etc.

I for one am glad they do.
 
So you are thinking that teams deflate footballs for superstitious reasons? You're thinking that Tom Brady is superstitious about the PSI of the footballs he throws?

That's harder to believe than them doing it illegally to gain an advantage.

Actually, my original comment to you was about breaking rules.
Rules are made for a reason, and in sports they are pretty adamant about making sure everybody adheres to all of the rules. That's why they have the rules committee, officials, umpires, referees, etc.

I for one am glad they do.

Nope, never said any of that about Brady. I was more talking about Brad Johnson... has admitted he paid money to get his footballs roughed up because that's how he liked them. There is no proof it ever really helped him.

What "reason" should a ball be inflated to at least 12.5 psi and not 12 psi? The first half of the AFC title game proves it has no affect. It's just a rule for the sake of having a rule. It serves no real purpose.
 
Nope, never said any of that about Brady. I was more talking about Brad Johnson... has admitted he paid money to get his footballs roughed up because that's how he liked them. There is no proof it ever really helped him.

What "reason" should a ball be inflated to at least 12.5 psi and not 12 psi? The first half of the AFC title game proves it has no affect. It's just a rule for the sake of having a rule. It serves no real purpose.

You ever hear of "small sample size"? Basing anything off of one half of football is ridiculous.

The Pats obviously thought a deflated football would help Brady. Whether they needed any help against the Colts is irrelevant, they still intentionally broke the rules. That's called cheating. If you want to look the other way, that is your choice, but you are in a distinct minority.
 
You ever hear of "small sample size"? Basing anything off of one half of football is ridiculous.

It's only ridiculous to you because that fist half contradicts your point. Then there is the second half they played with a properly inflated ball... Pats went off on the Colts. Seems the deflated balls hurt the Pats and prevented them from blowing out the Colts from the get go. Why would the Pats intentionally hurt themselves like that? The only conclusion that makes sense is they didn't deflate the balls.

bkight13 said:
The Pats obviously thought a deflated football would help Brady. Whether they needed any help against the Colts is irrelevant, they still intentionally broke the rules. That's called cheating. If you want to look the other way, that is your choice, but you are in a distinct minority.

All conjecture
 
Fact of the matter is it's looking more and more like the NFL has zero evidence against the Patriots. It's also being scientifically demonstrated (most recently by Carnegie Mellon) that a natural 2 psi drop in those conditions is perfectly plausible.

All the whining about "then why weren't the Colts balls underinflated?!?!" is ridiculous. Not only could they treat their balls differently, they also may have started higher than the Patriots started.

The NFL is coming to the realization that the Patriots did nothing wrong but they don't know how to handle it since there is so much faux outrage from the haters. People are demanding the death penalty for someone who, at worst, got caught doing 78 on PGBT.

Stay tuned.

I stay tuned and 2 days later I still believe your opening paragraph is completely wrong.
 

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