Manning put up numbers in 2005; some still questioning the position

[MichaelWinicki]

You are supposed to improve steadily- or at least improve. From the middle of last season Eli got worse. I say that is more telling.

"Supposed" to improve?

Hmm. I'm glad we have such an astute football mind here to edumacate us.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I would rather have a guy that doesn't choke it all, myself. Unfortunately that list is VERY short.

We had one... Troy Aikman.


And yes the list is short.

 

[burmafrd]

That is right- you are supposed to improve the more experience you get. Manning got worse as the season went along. Seems to indicate that he was not learning very well.

 

[superpunk]

That is right- you are supposed to improve the more experience you get. Manning got worse as the season went along. Seems to indicate that he was not learning very well.

Or it could have indicated that he was tired, as the rigors of playing a full NFL season wore on him.

Or it could have indicated that D-Coordinators learned how to exploit his weaknesses.

Or it could have been that he was facing tougher defenses, and he wasn't really all that great to start the season, just got to beat up on inferior competition.

I don't like blanket statements like the one you made. Bottom line is, down the stretch, Eli was weak, and Tiki carried that team, along with a defense that stopped giving up points. Eli is a weak point for the Giants, no doubt. But should he turn it around, and be better than the sub-par performance he put on last year, I'd look out for that team.

 

[ghst187]

Accuracy.

Game changing interceptions.

Single handedly losing entire games.

Manning is put down for many reasons. You can't just take two stats and say he's good. Bledsoe threw for the 2nd most yards in Cowboys's history. Is he the 2nd best Cowboys's QB? Well, hell no.

good points;
I would say Eli is probably a little better than we'd like to give him credit for...but the above points are pretty valid too. He crumpled and looked like a deer in headlights in a lot of clutch situations despite solid surrounding talent.
Gos' notes on Eli are further proof that stats don't NECESSARILY tell the whole story or sometimes even half of it.
I'll always think Steve Young was one of the most overrated QBs of all time but he was a stat hog. Should have never gotten a ring.

 

[burmafrd]

I think it is a tossup about who is the most over rated QB in NFL history between Steve Young and Elway.

 

[Vintage]

I figured one of the Bledsoe haters would try and compare them; the difference is, since the haters won't admit it, is that Bledsoe makes alot fewer mistakes, forces a lot fewer passes, and is more accurate.
Manning is both over rated and at the same time given a lot more credit then he deserves. Most of the giant wins were in spite of him, not because of him. While most othe Boys wins Bledsoe made plays when it counted. I do not see Manning ever getting more accurate, which hardly ever happens. He might get more mature and stop forcing passes (though it could be argued that Favre made a career of doing just that) but I do not ever see him getting more accurate. I beleive his carrer completion % at Mississippi was under 60%. VERY few quarterbacks that have that low a % incollege ever make it big in the pros. My cut off for a college QB to make it big in the pros is about 62%. You usually lose a few % going into the pros; 58% for pro QB is the absolute least that a good one can have.

Elway completed less than 57% of his passes IIRC..... I'd take him....

 

[stealth]

I think it is a tossup about who is the most over rated QB in NFL history between Steve Young and Elway.

elway could almost win by himself, I agree steve young is a bit over rated but elway? no way elway is over rated.

 

[big dog cowboy]

he slumped badly at the end of the season; he is not accurate; he likes to try and force passes and gets picked. Seems pretty obvious to me why some would question him.

You forgot........rides the coat tails of Tiki Barber and a good defense.

 

[theogt]

You forgot........rides the coat tails of Tiki Barber and a good defense.

...and his last name.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Didnt Peyton say that Eli was the better QB between them?

I dont believe that he believes that....

and if Peyton is better(and cant win anything) what will that mean for Elinterception machine?

 

[InmanRoshi]

Goose only used yards and TD's. QB's who rack up overall nice totals but blow in efficiency stats tend to be discredited. Eli's no more held to a higher standard than Drew Bledsoe or Vinny Testeverde are because they're never recognized as Top 10 All Time QB's even though they rank among the all time highest in total yards and TD's.

Just like there seems to be a butting of heads between statisticians and traditional baseball people on the relevency of a category like "wins" for a pitcher, I see the same thing coming for "TD's" by a QB. I, myself, think its a relatively meaningless stat because no two TD's are the same. If a QB zips a 15 yard post to a WR between 2 defenders .. absolutely he should be credited with a TD stat. When a team drives down the length of the field running the ball down the defense's throats, and then the QB completes a 4 yard pass in the back of the endzone to a wide open TE on a play action pass because the defense expects/fears the run ... I don't necessarily think the QB should be accredited as being responsible for the 6 points. Or if Donovan McNabb throws a simple, run of the mill, 5 yard slant to Terrell Owens and TO breaks 3 tackles, jukes out another defender and takes it 70 yards to the house, how much was McNabb responsible for the TD? In fact, a QB can often times be credited with a TD on a poor play, such as just throwing the ball up in the air for grabs deep.

If a QB A throws a key 15 yard completion on a 3rd down and 9 on the 40 yard line between three defenders that keeps a scoring drive alive that's later punched in by his RB and QB B completes an 8 yard fade to the back of the endzone where the WR has to do 90% of the work to outjump the cornerback to come down with the catch ... I thnk QB A was more pivitol to his team scoring a touchdown, even though he wasn't credited with a TD.

 

[Fla Cowpoke]

Bledsoe's completion percentage and yds per attempt were higher and he had one fewer TD pass. That with an OL much worse than the Giant's OL, a RB that was worse than the Giants's RB, and a receiving corps that was about the same from top to bottom.

Eli gets the benefit of inexperience, but he was scarily inaccurate at times.

Given the choice of the two for this upcoming year only, I would take Bledsoe. I think his veteran leadership will be able to keep the ship sailing smoothly along, while Owens would just eat Manning alive.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Elinterception machine?

I don't understand this characterization of this player.

He threw 17 INTs last year and that's a healthy amount but that's also as many as our own Bledsoe threw with one more TD to show for it. In fact, if you really look at it, his INT to Pass Attempt ratio is better then our own QB. Manning averaged 1 INT for every 32.76 attempts. Our own Bledsoe threw 1 INT every 26.41 Attempts. Interstingly enough, here is what the top QBs looked like in this regard.

Tom Brady 37.85
Trent Green 50.7
Brett Favre 20.93
Carson Palmer 42.41
Kerry Collins 47.03
Peyton Manning 45.3
Drew Brees 33.33
Matt Hasselbeck 49.88
Jake Delhomme 27.18
Jake Plummer 65.14


If you look at it from this perspective, I don't really think that Eli did all that poorly. None of the guys who are listed in the top 12 or so are young guys other then Palmer (who I happen to believe is the best young QB in the league). For as many times as Eli threw, he didn't do all that badly considering. JMO I suppose.

 

[burmafrd]

That is why stats sometimes can be so misleading. Stats do not show WHEN a INT was made. Stats do not show WHEN an inaccurate pass prevented a first down. That is why Manning looks bad- he picked quite often the worst possible moment to throw a pick or miss on a pass. There have been quaterbacks over the years that had great stats and were not all that good.
Danny White finished his career with a better rating then Roger did- but he was nowhere near the QB Roger was. Kurt Warner will end probably end his career with a higher rating then Roger. When Roger retired only Otto Graham had a higher QB rating. Now he is something like 10th or 12th. You cannot tell me in the last 20 years that there are 10 better QB's.

 

[superpunk]

Well, I don't know about that completely, burm. The highest pct. of his INTs did come when his team was ahead by 1-7 points, or down by 1-7, more than half, so that could be accurate, but I don't think it can be said with any authority. He did throw 4 INTs in the red zone, although none within 10 yards.

My biggest problem with him is (a) beating up on inferior defenses, while coming up small on higher ranked D's and (b) sailing passes over his receiver's heads. It is amazing, IMO, that he didn't throw more INT's doing that. He got lucky, because generally overthrows like that result in picks.

 

[burmafrd]

I guarantee you that a lot of DB's looked at films this winter and are drooling.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That is why stats sometimes can be so misleading. Stats do not show WHEN a INT was made. Stats do not show WHEN an inaccurate pass prevented a first down. That is why Manning looks bad- he picked quite often the worst possible moment to throw a pick or miss on a pass. There have been quaterbacks over the years that had great stats and were not all that good.
Danny White finished his career with a better rating then Roger did- but he was nowhere near the QB Roger was. Kurt Warner will end probably end his career with a higher rating then Roger. When Roger retired only Otto Graham had a higher QB rating. Now he is something like 10th or 12th. You cannot tell me in the last 20 years that there are 10 better QB's.

I think you have a valid point in that great players make plays when they have to. On the other hand, why the push back to acknowledge that Eli has only started something like 23 games. That's not a great deal of experience in view of what the expectation seems to be. The guy is young but he won't be that way forever. I just see him getting better and better. If that is an appoligist attitude on my part, I suppose I'm guilty.

 

[burmafrd]

I do not see him getting better, at least so far. I have not seen him do much but the same old same old. With his basic inaccuracy, and his hot head and ego, I am not one who keeps predicting greatness. I just do not see it.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Well, I don't know about that completely, burm. The highest pct. of his INTs did come when his team was ahead by 1-7 points, or down by 1-7, more than half, so that could be accurate, but I don't think it can be said with any authority. He did throw 4 INTs in the red zone, although none within 10 yards.

My biggest problem with him is (a) beating up on inferior defenses, while coming up small on higher ranked D's and (b) sailing passes over his receiver's heads. It is amazing, IMO, that he didn't throw more INT's doing that. He got lucky, because generally overthrows like that result in picks.

I think part of that is the fact that Burress is 6'5, Toomer is 6'3 or 4 and Shockey is like 6'5 also. All have long arms and all can jump. I think Manning was coached to throw a bit high so that only his guys could come down with it. Not saying all his over throws were because of this by any means. Some sailed because of mechanics or whatever. However, I do believe he made apoint of throwing the ball high under pressure in an attempt to give his receivers a chance to make a play but also lesson the chance for an interception.