Melton Deal vs Hatcher Deal

[Nightman]

Not really. If we had structured the same deal, in year 3, we could simply cut the player with no cap ramifications. The Skins deal is structured so that they can get out of the deal in any year after the 1st year. But why would you, unless he's simply useless and sucking out loud? The salary for year three of the Skins deal with Hatcher is only 3 Million. That's pretty reasonable.

I wouldn't say they can walk away after 1 year. That would be 10.5m in cash and 6.75m in dead money for that 1 year. And his year 3 salary is 6.5m, 3m is the second year.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Before I respond, let me ask you: how did Wade use Hatcher in your eyes?

He was a 3-4 DE using the 1-tech and then brought in nickel packages as a pass rusher. That's what the Skins fans are raving about Haslett's 'new defense.' Hatcher played the same technique and philosophy in Dallas under Wade and Ryan.

As for the "outrageous deal" the Skins gave Hatcher, I already went over that on the other page lol...it almost exactly matched some of the deals Cowboys fans were saying would be good deals to keep him in Dallas, with other D fans chiming in on how good those proposed deals were to them as well.

That's their opinion.

I think paying him what the Skins are paying him, even for a 4-3 DT, would be a bad deal because of his age. Football Outsiders did research on this and they showed that 4-3 DT and 3-4 DE's north of 30 years old don't fare well.

I think he was underappreciated as a 3-4 DE when Ryan ran the defense. He was very good, but the scheme in itself limits pass rushing potential and Ryan is about as aggressive as they get as a D-Coordinator. Tennessee was reportedly looking at giving him no more than $4 million a year to play 4-3 DT.

But anybody who thinks that deal was a smart deal by the Commanders is really foolish. They probably could have gotten him for 4 years and $20 million, easily. But, they are the Commanders and because it wasn't Cerrato making the deal, they automatically think it was a 'good' deal. All the while forgetting that Bruce Allen ran Tampa Bay's salary cap right into the ground when he was there. The more things change, the more they stay the same.





YR

 

[speedkilz88]

Well, you can expect anything but what you get are often two very different things. The most sacks Melton has ever recorded are 7 in 2011. It's possible he might get more this season but coming off injury, I would not expect that.

But expectations when those guys signed their contracts wasn't even 7.

 

[speedkilz88]

He was a 3-4 DE using the 1-tech and then brought in nickel packages as a pass rusher. That's what the Skins fans are raving about Haslett's 'new defense.' Hatcher played the same technique and philosophy in Dallas under Wade and Ryan.



That's their opinion.

I think paying him what the Skins are paying him, even for a 4-3 DT, would be a bad deal because of his age. Football Outsiders did research on this and they showed that 4-3 DT and 3-4 DE's north of 30 years old don't fare well.

I think he was underappreciated as a 3-4 DE when Ryan ran the defense. He was very good, but the scheme in itself limits pass rushing potential and Ryan is about as aggressive as they get as a D-Coordinator. Tennessee was reportedly looking at giving him no more than $4 million a year to play 4-3 DT.

But anybody who thinks that deal was a smart deal by the Commanders is really foolish. They probably could have gotten him for 4 years and $20 million, easily. But, they are the Commanders and because it wasn't Cerrato making the deal, they automatically think it was a 'good' deal. All the while forgetting that Bruce Allen ran Tampa Bay's salary cap right into the ground when he was there. The more things change, the more they stay the same.





YR

5 tech at end but yeah.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I wouldn't say they can walk away after 1 year. That would be 10.5m in cash and 6.75m in dead money for that 1 year. And his year 3 salary is 6.5m, 3m is the second year.

No. They can just walk away, after 1 year. As I understand it, they have 10.5 million guaranteed. That consists of the 1.5 Base Salary in the first year and the 9 million in signing bonues, which was not spread over multiple years. That is 10.5 guranteed, all in year 1. After year one, they can walk away if they want to. None of the rest of the contract is guaranteed. Now, again, I don't know why they would because year 2 and 3 are so cheap, from a salary perspective that it's unlikely that they can go out and sign another player to play for a more reasonable amount of money but yeah, if they wanted to shed the contract after a single year, they could the way it's constructed today.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

But expectations when those guys signed their contracts wasn't even 7.

I don't follow this post.

What I am saying is that the contract that Melton signed pretty expensive, in context to other big name DT's in the NFL. I mean, if you are going to pay a guy 9 Million or 7.5 or even 5 Million, you need to expect 7 sacks or more IMO.

 

[speedkilz88]

I don't follow this post.

What I am saying is that the contract that Melton signed pretty expensive, in context to other big name DT's in the NFL. I mean, if you are going to pay a guy 9 Million or 7.5 or even 5 Million, you need to expect 7 sacks or more IMO.

The guys you named aren't big name DT's.

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

Melton > Hatcher

Meltons Contract < Hatchers Contract


Allen Contract < Wares...lol

 

[Nightman]

No. They can just walk away, after 1 year. As I understand it, they have 10.5 million guaranteed. That consists of the 1.5 Base Salary in the first year and the 9 million in signing bonues, which was not spread over multiple years. That is 10.5 guranteed, all in year 1. After year one, they can walk away if they want to. None of the rest of the contract is guaranteed. Now, again, I don't know why they would because year 2 and 3 are so cheap, from a salary perspective that it's unlikely that they can go out and sign another player to play for a more reasonable amount of money but yeah, if they wanted to shed the contract after a single year, they could the way it's constructed today.

According to everything I read, they pro-rated his signing bonus over the 4 years. That would leave 6.75m in dead money after one year.

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-...66/hatchers-contract-favorable-for-Commanders

 

[speedkilz88]

YEARBASE____S. BONUS__MISC.CAP HIT___DEAD
2014__1,500,000_2,250,000__3,750,000__10,500,000
2015__3,000,000_2,250,000__5,250,000__6,750,000
2016__6,500,000_2,250,000__8,750,000__4,500,000
2017__7,500,000_2,250,000__9,750,000__2,250,000
2018__UFA


CONTRACT:4 yr(s) / $27,500,000
SIGNING BONUS $9,000,000
AVERAGE SALARY $6,875,000
GUARANTEED:$10,500,000

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-Commanders/jason-hatcher/

 

[MichaelWinicki]

YEARBASE____S. BONUS__MISC.CAP HIT___DEAD
2014__1,500,000_2,250,000__3,750,000__10,500,000
2015__3,000,000_2,250,000__5,250,000__6,750,000
2016__6,500,000_2,250,000__8,750,000__4,500,000
2017__7,500,000_2,250,000__9,750,000__2,250,000
2018__UFA


CONTRACT:4 yr(s) / $27,500,000
SIGNING BONUS $9,000,000
AVERAGE SALARY $6,875,000
GUARANTEED:$10,500,000

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/washington-Commanders/jason-hatcher/

I don't care how you slice it... That's a bad contract for a 32 YO who's had one very good season and a couple solid ones based on his snap count, but he's never played 800 snaps in a season... with injuries playing a big part in that.

 

[speedkilz88]

I don't care how you slice it... That's a bad contract for a 32 YO who's had one very good season and a couple solid ones based on his snap count, but he's never played 800 snaps in a season... with injuries playing a big part in that.

On talkin cowboys they said they thought it would end up being a two year deal because of the cap hit for him in 2016 and then they would split the dead money in 2016/2017. They all thought he was overpaid and especially as a 3-4 end.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The guys you named aren't big name DT's.

Yeah, they are.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

According to everything I read, they pro-rated his signing bonus over the 4 years. That would leave 6.75m in dead money after one year.

http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-...66/hatchers-contract-favorable-for-Commanders

Well, they may have, I don't know but Commanders fan who posted in this thread earlier, he indicated that the money was not spread out. The link you posted says it a 10.5 Guaranteed contract so really, it could be a 1 year contract. It would just depend on if the Commanders wanted to spread out the signing bonus over multiple years or not. If they did, then they could take cap hits in future years but, they could also just pay it out in 1 or two years. They don't have to necessarily spread it out over the life of the contract.

 

[speedkilz88]

Yeah, they are.

The only big names you mentioned was Atkins (who is making 10 million a year), Fairley (on rookie contract), Dareus (on rookie contract) who is also a 1 tech-darned good one though, and maybe Williams (who is making $7.2875 million a year and signed that contract in 2011 coming off of a career high (at that time) 5.5 sks.



Mebane is not a big name DT, plays the 1 tech, and had 0 sks last season. He's a run stopper making 5 million a year.
Langford is not a big name DT, he's actually only played two years at DT - 3 tech(was a 3-4 end with Miami) and had 2 sks the first year and 5 sks last year. As I said before he's kind of like a Jason Hatcher lite.

The funny thing is, none of these guys were available in 2013. They were either signed as rookies and on their original deal, signed in 2011, or signed in 2012.

It's like fail all around.



Geno Atkins (6 sks last year) $10.6654 a year
Nick Fairley (6 sks last year) still on his rookie deal
Marcel Dareus (1 tech) (7.5 sks last year) still on his rookie deal
Brandon Mebane (1 tech) (0 sks last year) (13 sks in 7 years) $5 million a year
Kendall Langford (5 sks last year-career high) (9.5 sks in 5 years prior because he was a 3-4 end-2012 when he signed his contract he had 7.5 sks in 4 years)$5.5 million a year
Kyle Williams (10.5 sks-career year) (18.5 sks in 7 years prior)(2011 came off his then career high sk total of 5.5 and signed a new deal)$7.2875 million a year

 

[speedkilz88]

Well, they may have, I don't know but Commanders fan who posted in this thread earlier, he indicated that the money was not spread out. The link you posted says it a 10.5 Guaranteed contract so really, it could be a 1 year contract. It would just depend on if the Commanders wanted to spread out the signing bonus over multiple years or not. If they did, then they could take cap hits in future years but, they could also just pay it out in 1 or two years. They don't have to necessarily spread it out over the life of the contract.

The way it's written up it's likely to be a two year deal and they will split the 4.5 million cap hit over the two years.

After the first year his hit to keep is cheaper than the hit to cut him.
5,250,000-- 6,750,000

 

[Bullflop]

Actually, I think the contracts and those involved speak for themselves. While both deals are relatively non-committal for the 1st year, there's no doubt that both have been well above average in their productive output with the difference in age giving a slight advantage to Melton, IMO. Of course, Melton's knee needs to prove healthy. Outside of that hiccup, I love the deal we got at DT.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The only big names you mentioned was Atkins (who is making 10 million a year), Fairley (on rookie contract), Dareus (on rookie contract) who is also a 1 tech-darned good one though, and maybe Williams (who is making $7.2875 million a year and signed that contract in 2011 coming off of a career high (at that time) 5.5 sks.



Mebane is not a big name DT, plays the 1 tech, and had 0 sks last season. He's a run stopper making 5 million a year.
Langford is not a big name DT, he's actually only played two years at DT - 3 tech(was a 3-4 end with Miami) and had 2 sks the first year and 5 sks last year. As I said before he's kind of like a Jason Hatcher lite.

The funny thing is, none of these guys were available in 2013. They were either signed as rookies and on their original deal, signed in 2011, or signed in 2012.

It's like fail all around.



Geno Atkins (6 sks last year) $10.6654 a year
Nick Fairley (6 sks last year) still on his rookie deal
Marcel Dareus (1 tech) (7.5 sks last year) still on his rookie deal
Brandon Mebane (1 tech) (0 sks last year) (13 sks in 7 years) $5 million a year
Kendall Langford (5 sks last year-career high) (9.5 sks in 5 years prior because he was a 3-4 end-2012 when he signed his contract he had 7.5 sks in 4 years)$5.5 million a year
Kyle Williams (10.5 sks-career year) (18.5 sks in 7 years prior)(2011 came off his then career high sk total of 5.5 and signed a new deal)$7.2875 million a year

OK, well, based on you, you think those aren't big names but I assure you, they are. Mebane, who was just resigned by the Sea Hawks is a pretty key guy in the defense. I don't think they would have resigned him if they didn't think he was important.

Where are you getting the numvers you are getting? Atkins didn't make 10 million, according to what I am seeing. Where did your figures come from?

As far as the names I mention, they all came off of the 10 DTs salary wise from this past season.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The way it's written up it's likely to be a two year deal and they will split the 4.5 million cap hit over the two years.

After the first year his hit to keep is cheaper than the hit to cut him.
5,250,000-- 6,750,000

The way it's written up, it's a one year deal that could be spread over two years. That's what I'm saying. The Skins have flexibility to do what they want here, based on what they can afford.

 

[speedkilz88]

5 years 53.327 - SB 15 million
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/geno-atkins/

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...kins-bengals-sign-fiveyear-contract-extension

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Breaking-down-Geno-Atkins-5475-million-deal.html

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...s-geno-atkins-agree-to-5year-55-mil-extension


Mebane signed his contract in 2011, he's a run stopper. Not a big name unless winning the superbowl just makes you a big name.