More Mini-Camp Photos......DMN

[BadKarma]

I agree on VT's mechanics. Looks like Vinny has a lower base, and the way he's in a better position to make a play-action throw. QC on the other hand, would need to take an extra step to make the same throw.

Overall, VT appears to already make some positive influences on our young QB's. Bringing in a seasoned vet was the best thing we could do for these guys.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

Nostra your right Carter looks like he added more muscle as well , it seems alot of these guys have been working there *** off this off season . good for them there really showing themselves to be true professionals

Well, at least we know Bill's off-season conditioning program is so good, the guys who don't make it thru cuts can find work with the Chippendales.

All 'cept Gurode. He apparently either slept or ate right thru the program. Or both.

 

[Yeagermeister]

Well, at least we know Bill's off-season conditioning program is so good, the guys who don't make it thru cuts can find work with the Chippendales.

All 'cept Gurode. He apparently either slept or ate right thru the program. Or both.

I noticed that also. He could be eating his lazy butt out of a job.

 

[Hostile]

Just a drill, and there isn't even a runner to hand off too, much less a line, a defense and play called, but looking at Vinnie handoff compared to Quincy's...the length of the stride in particular, I think it's easy to conclude who is going to be getting the ball in the hand of trhe runner faster. Altho wider spread legs should signify greater imbalance.. Vin's lower to the ground body language gives a feeling the handoff is less likely to me buffled, dropped, or interrupted. Can't tell or know anything about comparative grips, but I bet even that matters. There's just a speed and security assurity aspect to Vin's stance that Q has yet to finalize.

Any former QBs have some insiight?

Vinnie has 17 years of smoothly perfected mechanics for the young qbs to work off. In particular his play action sequence is superb. He will be the ultimate model.

Anyone who was so stupid as to think bringing Vinnie in was a wasted roster spot, should be condemned to flashing the crow in the avatar for evermore.

In Bill We Trust.

HH, I wanted to comment on that very thing but I know at least 2 or 3 posters who will scoff. I may address this via PM later if you don't mind.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

HH, I wanted to comment on that very thing but I know at least 2 or 3 posters who will scoff. I may address this via PM later if you don't mind.

By all means, my friend, I seek your takes always, be it by post, IM or messenger pigeon.

Forget the scoffers. Especially if you're referring to your anlaysis of the Henson stance a while back.

It's just that sort of discussion that those of us who obviously never played the game learn the most from. I for one want to hear what folks who played on any level think they see in stance, foot placement, drill pics, etc.

I'm certainly not going to get educated on mechanics by John Clayton.

 

[Hostile]

By all means, my friend, I seek your takes always, be it by post, IM or messenger pigeon.

Forget the scoffers. Especially if you're referring to your anlaysis of the Henson stance a while back.

It's just that sort of discussion that those of us who obviously never played the game learn the most from. I for one want to hear what folks who played on any level think they see in stance, foot placement, drill pics, etc.

I'm certainly not going to get educated on mechanics by John Clayton.

Okay you convinced me. I'll get ripped, but I don't care. First let me re-post the picture.

First let me give Vinny the advantage he is due. He has 17 years in this league.

The first thing I notice is the position of the head. This is one of my big gripes with Q. He looks down like he is looking at the RBs feet. He does this a lot, and it really irks me. A QB needs to be looking up at all times. Tacklers and weapons are not down low. They are at eye level. Notice Vinny's frame of reference. Eyes on where the RB is supposed to be, looking at chest level.

Right arm placement. When you take the snap from center you want to turn with both hands on the ball and the ball concealed by the torso. These guys are in textbook position. Bad form is when that right arm is away from the body. The reason that is bad form is because a defender still shielded from the ball can see that the ball is not in the throwing hand and he knows it is not a pass. Remember ball fakes are critical to selling a play. Both guys right arms are perfect. 2 years ago, Q's right arm would come out wide. If you remember Parcells wanted him to work on his ball fakes. They are better.

Left arm, again bad form by Q. Firt thing I want you to notice is the attitude of the ball. Vinny's is positioned so it hits the RB flat in the stomach. Q's is pointed at the stomach. Harder for the RB to get a firm hold. Greater chance of fumbling. I do not like this at all. The other noticable thing is his arm is bent whereas Vinny's is locked. Also bad form by Q. The quicker that ball is in the RBs stomach and hands the faster the play develops the quicker the defense has to react. One last thing, notice the height of the ball. This is due to the arm extension.

Okay now legs. Vinny is too stiff legged. Notice how Q is crouched. You want to be more flexed like that. Legs advantage goes to Q here.

Now the feet, seperate from the legs. Yet again, bad form on Q. Vinny is striding back to meet the RB, if this is a ball fake he will also be faster to keep the ball and set up for the pass. Q is selling the MLB that this is a run and all he has to do is react. Q is clearly waiting for the RB to come take the ball whereas Vinny is getting the ball back there to the runner. He's flat footed and his feet are too close together as well. If this is anything but a run, he is not ready for the play to happen.

The biggest problem with Vinny's mechanics in this picture is that he is stiff legged. This means he will move slower setting up. Everything else is very much textbook.

I said enough about Q to be hated for days. I'll refrain from summarizing. Suffice it to say that is painful for me to even look at.

 

[jay cee]

Ok before anyone attacks Hostile. let me say thanks for the analysis.

 

[Hostile]

Ok before anyone attacks Hostile. let me say thanks for the analysis.

You're a pal.

 

[CantonBound08]

Okay you convinced me. I'll get ripped, but I don't care. First let me re-post the picture.
...
I said enough about Q to be hated for days. I'll refrain from summarizing. Suffice it to say that is painful for me to even look at.

Wow, awesome post. I would have never seen all of that had you not pointed it out. You must be awesome at the "Where's Waldo Books". All kidding aside. Great post, thanks for the insight.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

Very enlightening, TH! I can't really gauge the head position re where it would indicate eye focus. But the trajectory of Q's bod right thru the extended arm looks aimed lower.

Interesting about ball attitude, and locking vs bending.

I had thought Vinnie's stance/crouch was the superior for a one handed handoff, but you well point out his "stfif-legged" look. So the distance the legs are spread apart is okay, just not the inflexibility aspect? The further apart the legs get the less range of recoil/ reset and just general agility available, right? Like trying to stop yourself from a fall on ice is harder the longer the stride you took... I'm asking. I guess, how can Vinnie not help but be stiff-legged with his legs so far part? Should he keep them less spread, but not as much as Q's?

You know, I won't make excuses for him, but after his Achilles injury he never looked as limber. Maybe this part of the long term effect, or maybe, its just rhumatoid arthritis sets in after age 40. . I can mentally picture what you mean by how it would affect his set up time, tho.

Especially interesting is your point that this better be a run play for Q, or else.
Any defender worth his salt should be able to read what you did, and anticipate accordingly.

I've got your back on any hate, TH. You aren't, after all, saying Quincy is incapable of ever spreading his legs further.

Keep it comin, TH. After this smorgasboard of minicamp info ends, we're back to another agonizing seven-eight weeks til camp goes in. By July 30 we could get all the through to eyebrow elevation.

Your takes are just the ticket.

 

[BluMen]

I agree on VT's mechanics. Looks like Vinny has a lower base, and the way he's in a better position to make a play-action throw. QC on the other hand, would need to take an extra step to make the same throw.

Overall, VT appears to already make some positive influences on our young QB's. Bringing in a seasoned vet was the best thing we could do for these guys.

That's funny. I think it all depends on the play. If it's quick play action pass QC is in a better position to turn quickly and setup. If it's a slower developing pass play VT with the long stride would be in better position. VT stance is wider and requires longer strides. QC stance is shorter and requires shorter stride.

 

[Nors]

appears Vinnie is a half step ahead of Quincy?

Timing? Odd? I don't make too much out of that.

 

[BluMen]

Okay you convinced me. I'll get ripped, but I don't care. First let me re-post the picture.

First let me give Vinny the advantage he is due. He has 17 years in this league.

The first thing I notice is the position of the head. This is one of my big gripes with Q. He looks down like he is looking at the RBs feet. He does this a lot, and it really irks me. A QB needs to be looking up at all times. Tacklers and weapons are not down low. They are at eye level. Notice Vinny's frame of reference. Eyes on where the RB is supposed to be, looking at chest level.

Right arm placement. When you take the snap from center you want to turn with both hands on the ball and the ball concealed by the torso. These guys are in textbook position. Bad form is when that right arm is away from the body. The reason that is bad form is because a defender still shielded from the ball can see that the ball is not in the throwing hand and he knows it is not a pass. Remember ball fakes are critical to selling a play. Both guys right arms are perfect. 2 years ago, Q's right arm would come out wide. If you remember Parcells wanted him to work on his ball fakes. They are better.

Left arm, again bad form by Q. Firt thing I want you to notice is the attitude of the ball. Vinny's is positioned so it hits the RB flat in the stomach. Q's is pointed at the stomach. Harder for the RB to get a firm hold. Greater chance of fumbling. I do not like this at all. The other noticable thing is his arm is bent whereas Vinny's is locked. Also bad form by Q. The quicker that ball is in the RBs stomach and hands the faster the play develops the quicker the defense has to react. One last thing, notice the height of the ball. This is due to the arm extension.

Okay now legs. Vinny is too stiff legged. Notice how Q is crouched. You want to be more flexed like that. Legs advantage goes to Q here.

Now the feet, seperate from the legs. Yet again, bad form on Q. Vinny is striding back to meet the RB, if this is a ball fake he will also be faster to keep the ball and set up for the pass. Q is selling the MLB that this is a run and all he has to do is react. Q is clearly waiting for the RB to come take the ball whereas Vinny is getting the ball back there to the runner. He's flat footed and his feet are too close together as well. If this is anything but a run, he is not ready for the play to happen.

The biggest problem with Vinny's mechanics in this picture is that he is stiff legged. This means he will move slower setting up. Everything else is very much textbook.

I said enough about Q to be hated for days. I'll refrain from summarizing. Suffice it to say that is painful for me to even look at.

uummmmmm Hostile....do you think that maybe the position of the ball has more to do with the angle inwhich the picture was taken than whose pointing the ball at the stomach vs flat in the stomach?

I think there strides are more dependent upon the type of play being called. See earlier post.

 

[Nors]

So not an expert

I think if anything Vinnie may be reaching too much. Still the angle and timing but Quincy seems a half stride behind Vinnie's timing?

 

[Juke99]

Okay you convinced me. I'll get ripped, but I don't care. First let me re-post the picture.

First let me give Vinny the advantage he is due. He has 17 years in this league.

The first thing I notice is the position of the head. This is one of my big gripes with Q. He looks down like he is looking at the RBs feet. He does this a lot, and it really irks me. A QB needs to be looking up at all times. Tacklers and weapons are not down low. They are at eye level. Notice Vinny's frame of reference. Eyes on where the RB is supposed to be, looking at chest level.

Right arm placement. When you take the snap from center you want to turn with both hands on the ball and the ball concealed by the torso. These guys are in textbook position. Bad form is when that right arm is away from the body. The reason that is bad form is because a defender still shielded from the ball can see that the ball is not in the throwing hand and he knows it is not a pass. Remember ball fakes are critical to selling a play. Both guys right arms are perfect. 2 years ago, Q's right arm would come out wide. If you remember Parcells wanted him to work on his ball fakes. They are better.

Left arm, again bad form by Q. Firt thing I want you to notice is the attitude of the ball. Vinny's is positioned so it hits the RB flat in the stomach. Q's is pointed at the stomach. Harder for the RB to get a firm hold. Greater chance of fumbling. I do not like this at all. The other noticable thing is his arm is bent whereas Vinny's is locked. Also bad form by Q. The quicker that ball is in the RBs stomach and hands the faster the play develops the quicker the defense has to react. One last thing, notice the height of the ball. This is due to the arm extension.

Okay now legs. Vinny is too stiff legged. Notice how Q is crouched. You want to be more flexed like that. Legs advantage goes to Q here.

Now the feet, seperate from the legs. Yet again, bad form on Q. Vinny is striding back to meet the RB, if this is a ball fake he will also be faster to keep the ball and set up for the pass. Q is selling the MLB that this is a run and all he has to do is react. Q is clearly waiting for the RB to come take the ball whereas Vinny is getting the ball back there to the runner. He's flat footed and his feet are too close together as well. If this is anything but a run, he is not ready for the play to happen.

The biggest problem with Vinny's mechanics in this picture is that he is stiff legged. This means he will move slower setting up. Everything else is very much textbook.

I said enough about Q to be hated for days. I'll refrain from summarizing. Suffice it to say that is painful for me to even look at.

ANNNNNND, QC is pointing his right thumb in the direction that the play is being run which is a dead giveaway to the entire defense.

Of course, he could be setting up the defense for a thumb misdirect later in the game.

Actually, your analysis is very good. The thing that is most disturbing to me is the position of the ball in QC's hand...nose first to the RB, a definite NO NO. His feet are in lousy position. No balance. I could understand his feet being where they are IF he wasn't so deep into the play but he's obviously ready to hand off the ball and therefore, his feet should be in a position where his weight is more evenly distributed. And you are "on the nosey" he is clearly waiting for the RB to come to him, reaching in a fairly passive manner.

OY, this is like dissecting the Zapruder film.

 

[Hostile]

Very enlightening, TH! I can't really gauge the head position re where it would indicate eye focus. But the trajectory of Q's bod right thru the extended arm looks aimed lower.

For the head position I am looking at the attitude of the face mask. I often feel that Q's head is pointed down when he turns around. I honestly feel this is why he sometimes does not see stuff downfield. Just my opinion.

Interesting about ball attitude, and locking vs bending.

The most frustrating thing to me is the ball pointed at the stomach and low.

I had thought Vinnie's stance/crouch was the superior for a one handed handoff, but you well point out his "stfif-legged" look. So the distance the legs are spread apart is okay, just not the inflexibility aspect? The further apart the legs get the less range of recoil/ reset and just general agility available, right? Like trying to stop yourself from a fall on ice is harder the longer the stride you took... I'm asking. I guess, how can Vinnie not help but be stiff-legged with his legs so far part? Should he keep them less spread, but not as much as Q's?

The last line is really accurate. If you want good balance you need 2 things. One to be on the balls of your feet, the other is to be slightly crouched. If your legs are completely stretched out like Vinny's are you are really committed to one direction of travel. You can bend your legs to change this, but it will still look stiff.

You know, I won't make excuses for him, but after his Achilles injury he never looked as limber. Maybe this part of the long term effect, or maybe, its just rhumatoid arthritis sets in after age 40. . I can mentally picture what you mean by how it would affect his set up time, tho.

There may be more truth to this than either of us know.

Especially interesting is your point that this better be a run play for Q, or else.
Any defender worth his salt should be able to read what you did, and anticipate accordingly.

Every defensive coordinator picks up little things like this and alerts the team to watch for these things. These tips are exactly what they look for in films. If I were a defensive coordinator my instructions to the MLB would be to watch his first step at turn around and look for his foot position. Flat footed and waiting clearly means this is a run. From where he is standing there is literally no good way for him to keep the ball and then retreat into a throwing position. This is a very easy read. His foot position would be something pounded into every defenders head for the whole week. You can bet they will be watching.

I've got your back on any hate, TH. You aren't, after all, saying Quincy is incapable of ever spreading his legs further.

Keep it comin, TH. After this smorgasboard of minicamp info ends, we're back to another agonizing seven-eight weeks til camp goes in. By July 30 we could get all the through to eyebrow elevation.

Your takes are just the ticket.

Thanks. I appreciate the genuine interest.

 

[Hostile]

Wow, awesome post. I would have never seen all of that had you not pointed it out. You must be awesome at the "Where's Waldo Books". All kidding aside. Great post, thanks for the insight.

LMAO

I hate to say it, but I love those books and yeah I see him quickly. I don't know if there is a correlation or not. Never thought about it.

 

[Hostile]

uummmmmm Hostile....do you think that maybe the position of the ball has more to do with the angle inwhich the picture was taken than whose pointing the ball at the stomach vs flat in the stomach?

I think there strides are more dependent upon the type of play being called. See earlier post.

Okay, figured this was coming.

No, I do not think it is a camera angle on the ball. Look at the wrists of the left hand. Vinny's is locked. An extension fo the left arm itself. Q's is slightly bent.

The last statement is a cop out. A good QB runs the play. Period.

If I am a defender I know for a 100% fact that Q is going to hand that ball off. He is not going to pull the ball out of the RBs stomach and then drop back. Not from a flat footed, legs together stance he isn't.

On the other hand, stiff legged or not Vinny can either hand the ball off or pull it back and set up to pass. He is making the play happen. Q is waiting for it to happen.

I see a huge difference.

 

[Hostile]

So not an expert

I think if anything Vinnie may be reaching too much. Still the angle and timing but Quincy seems a half stride behind Vinnie's timing?

Yes, Vinny is over striding and that is why I said he is stiff legged.

Q's a half stride behind because of his foot placement.

I don't think you can reach too much, but I do think you can stride too far.

 

[Hostile]

ANNNNNND, QC is pointing his right thumb in the direction that the play is being run which is a dead giveaway to the entire defense.

Of course, he could be setting up the defense for a thumb misdirect later in the game.

Actually, your analysis is very good. The thing that is most disturbing to me is the position of the ball in QC's hand...nose first to the RB, a definite NO NO. His feet are in lousy position. No balance. I could understand his feet being where they are IF he wasn't so deep into the play but he's obviously ready to hand off the ball and therefore, his feet should be in a position where his weight is more evenly distributed. And you are "on the nosey" he is clearly waiting for the RB to come to him, reaching in a fairly passive manner.

OY, this is like dissecting the Zapruder film.

Thanks Juke. I miss this stuff. I loved yelling in the film sessions.