More Mini-Camp Photos......DMN

[flashback]

Maybe Hambrick wasn't that bad after all. Maybe Quincy was just looking down too far when he handed the ball off, and this caused Troy to trip over the LOS.

 

[AdamJT13]

Maybe the only real difference is that Vinny is a split-second ahead of Carter in the drill. They appear to be taking snaps and handing off/faking handoffs to ghosts. Do we know for a fact that the centers snapped the ball at the exact same moment? Do we know for a fact that they were going off the same cadence, or if they each using their own cadence?

Unless you know for a fact where each player should be at that specific moment, there isn't much you can glean from photos.

 

[Echo9]

Maybe the only real difference is that Vinny is a split-second ahead of Carter in the drill. They appear to be taking snaps and handing off/faking handoffs to ghosts. Do we know for a fact that the centers snapped the ball at the exact same moment? Do we know for a fact that they were going off the same cadence, or if they each using their own cadence?

Unless you know for a fact where each player should be at that specific moment, there isn't much you can glean from photos.

Yeah, but it's still kinda fun!

 

[Hostile]

Hos,

I'm not going to get into it like some of these other guys are with you, however, 2 things you brought up that can't be told from a still picture....

At the time of the picture, Q's arm is not locked or anything, yet how do we know that he wasn't in motion to get it just like Vinnie's.

You mentioned the height of the ball.....yet we don't see the height of the runner, so this would be impossible from this still picture, to determine if it was the correct height or not.

Also. the angle of the ball.....where is the runner? It would be much easier to tell if we could see the runner to determine if this was incorrect, we can't tell if the runner is runningto the left or anything OR if Quincy got the ball turned the correct way for the RB. BTW, I highly doubt that there is ANY QB in the NFL that gives the ball to the RB with the point hitting them in the belly.

Analysis is good for a point in time....with this I agree with you, but analysis without the ensuing pictures or more information is only as good as the period of time in which the picture was taken......which is only a split second.

For the record, your analysis is correct with what is in the picture, but we all know that we need more info. to determine if his mechanics are truly flawed in this play.

Thanks for being a civil critic. Nice change of pace.

I stand by what I said. Place whatever worth upon it that you want.

 

[Hostile]

Maybe the only real difference is that Vinny is a split-second ahead of Carter in the drill. They appear to be taking snaps and handing off/faking handoffs to ghosts. Do we know for a fact that the centers snapped the ball at the exact same moment? Do we know for a fact that they were going off the same cadence, or if they each using their own cadence?

Unless you know for a fact where each player should be at that specific moment, there isn't much you can glean from photos.

I am referencing one against the other as this is a side by side "ghost drill." The snap or simulation is done on a coach's barked order.

 

[jay cee]

I don't think there is anything riduculous involved in any of the analysis here.

TH and others have pointed out to those of us who haven't PLAYED football, what it even is you should be, or could be, looking for in a particular mechanical drill.

For years I worked at the school where the Pats trained and saw countless, countless practice sessions. I used to write reports on them for the Pats fans at TSN, but knew I had very very little understanding of how to even watch a drill, what I should even be looking for. I wish I had been able to give the kind of insight TH and others have here.

Regardless of how a snapshot in time relates to a prior and latter series of actions, I find it fascinating that so much info can be gleaned from one photo. And whether TH is "right" or "wrong" in his assessment is irrelevant, imo, (tho I suspect his takes are on target).

I learned a lot from this discussion, and appreciate the time and effort that went into it.

Great Post LaTuna, I don't see why so many people have to find reasons to argue. I was kind of being sarcastic when I said I wanted to thank hostile for his analysis before the bashing began. I thought he was being overly sensitive, I really did not think anyone would give him a hard time over it.

 

[jay cee]

Hos,

I'm not going to get into it like some of these other guys are with you, however, 2 things you brought up that can't be told from a still picture....

At the time of the picture, Q's arm is not locked or anything, yet how do we know that he wasn't in motion to get it just like Vinnie's.

You mentioned the height of the ball.....yet we don't see the height of the runner, so this would be impossible from this still picture, to determine if it was the correct height or not.

Also. the angle of the ball.....where is the runner? It would be much easier to tell if we could see the runner to determine if this was incorrect, we can't tell if the runner is runningto the left or anything OR if Quincy got the ball turned the correct way for the RB. BTW, I highly doubt that there is ANY QB in the NFL that gives the ball to the RB with the point hitting them in the belly.

Analysis is good for a point in time....with this I agree with you, but analysis without the ensuing pictures or more information is only as good as the period of time in which the picture was taken......which is only a split second.

For the record, your analysis is correct with what is in the picture, but we all know that we need more info. to determine if his mechanics are truly flawed in this play.

Excellent points Jimz, adam, and Hostile. It's cool to get different views. And not just mindless attacks.

 

[AdamJT13]

I am referencing one against the other as this is a side by side "ghost drill." The snap or simulation is done on a coach's barked order.

And you're positive about that?

Was it full-speed, half-speed, or slow-motion?

What was the purpose of the drill? Was it practicing handoffs? Practicing play-action drops? Or something else?

 

[Hostile]

And you're positive about that?

Was it full-speed, half-speed, or slow-motion?

What was the purpose of the drill? Was it practicing handoffs? Practicing play-action drops? Or something else?

Yes, I am positive about it.

Full speed probably. If it was half speed then it is even more troubling. Moving slower you should be thinking clearer, and thus doing everything textbook because you would know that the eyes were on you.

This kind of drill can serve many purposes. The main one I am familiar with is mechanics, because that is what I used to teach.

It is sometimes called a "comparison reference drill." This means that the coaching staff can go look at the film and get a reference as to who does what better.

That is the only reason for the side by side running of the same drill. So that you can reference one player against the other. Which is exactly what I did. I have done it from video, in real time right on the practice field, and by still pictures. It is not rare at all. Otherwise you simply have each player run the same number of reps.

This way you get to see 2 frames of reference at the same time.

It's a great tool to be able to use as something to start working on.

 

[Hostile]

Excellent points Jimz, adam, and Hostile. It's cool to get different views. And not just mindless attacks.

Thanks jay cee. I knew earlier that you were giving me a hard time, but I also knew from past experience the level of doubt.

I find this stuff fun and interesting. If others do too, great. If not well, at least they can gripe about my point of view again.

 

[Az Lurker]

I for one appreciate this sort of annalysis. I for one would love the chance to sit in and learn from a coach all about breaking down film, technique and mechanics. Not sure how I'd get into such a situation now though.

 

[AdamJT13]

Yes, I am positive about it.

Because you were there? Or ... ?

Full speed probably. If it was half speed then it is even more troubling. Moving slower you should be thinking clearer, and thus doing everything textbook because you would know that the eyes were on you.

If it's less than full-speed, then how do we know they were all going at the same speed?

That is the only reason for the side by side running of the same drill. So that you can reference one player against the other. Which is exactly what I did. I have done it from video, in real time right on the practice field, and by still pictures. It is not rare at all. Otherwise you simply have each player run the same number of reps.

This way you get to see 2 frames of reference at the same time.

If only we could see the quarterback(s) to the right of Quincy, then we could really have a field day analyzing all three or four of them, huh?

Frankly, I just don't see how anyone could know they were all supposed to be *perfectly synchronized* unless you were there watching exactly what they were doing and knew exactly what they were supposed to do.

 

[Hostile]

I for one appreciate this sort of annalysis. I for one would love the chance to sit in and learn from a coach all about breaking down film, technique and mechanics. Not sure how I'd get into such a situation now though.

Like anything else you have to love it be any good at it. To a small degree any player who has stood on the sidelines looking for stuff that players do to tip off plays has done this.

You'll be standing on the sidelines saying to a teammate, "every time it is a pass play the FB has his mouth piece dangling down from the face mask, but if it is a run he puts the mouth piece in."

In High School if we had an off week some teammates and I used to go watch our next opponent play. We felt like it gave us an edge to see what they liked to do.

I was lucky enough to get to play beyond High School, and the OC where I played is a legend. When he broke down film you felt like you were in church. I got hooked. I honestly love it. I wanted to watch film all the time. I asked non stop questions if I had the chance.

Not everyone does. I guarantee you there are guys on here that played and probably hated film sessions. They aren't always fun. At times they are embarrassing if you've really screwed up. I can't imagine being a CB. If you get beat it is just more obvious than any other position and the coaches will let you know it.

One way to get a chance to do this would be to volunteer to coach at a local High School and gradually work your way up the ladder. If you get in good that way you can ask the college coaches if you can attend a film sessions as a learning tool. The coachign fraternity is very helpful and respectful of each other on all levels.

 

[BlindFaith]

I think what is being over looked here is the fact that the reason for the drill, I'm pretty sure, was just to get the QB's used to going threw the motions again before they had any live action.

Let's try not to over analyze a simple "get back in the flow of playing football because it's been a few months since I have" drill.

 

[Jimz31]

Thanks for being a civil critic. Nice change of pace.

I stand by what I said. Place whatever worth upon it that you want.

I'm not necessarily criticizing your analysis. You are probably correct about it being a drill where they go on the coach's "bark".

I was just saying that there are other things that we aren't seeing. Were the RB's running at the same pace etc. Perhaps this view in conjunction with an overhead view would give us a better view of just where everybody was.....did the center snap the ball at exactly the same time?

I like when you analyze these things although I did give you a little bit of a hard time the first time you did this.

Let's all just remember that this is the first week in camp and mistakes are going to be made by all of our players. It's supposed to happen at this time. It's NOT supposed to happen with regularity during the season.

 

[Az Lurker]

Like anything else you have to love it be any good at it. To a small degree any player who has stood on the sidelines looking for stuff that players do to tip off plays has done this.

You'll be standing on the sidelines saying to a teammate, "every time it is a pass play the FB has his mouth piece dangling down from the face mask, but if it is a run he puts the mouth piece in."

In High School if we had an off week some teammates and I used to go watch our next opponent play. We felt like it gave us an edge to see what they liked to do.

I was lucky enough to get to play beyond High School, and the OC where I played is a legend. When he broke down film you felt like you were in church. I got hooked. I honestly love it. I wanted to watch film all the time. I asked non stop questions if I had the chance.

Not everyone does. I guarantee you there are guys on here that played and probably hated film sessions. They aren't always fun. At times they are embarrassing if you've really screwed up. I can't imagine being a CB. If you get beat it is just more obvious than any other position and the coaches will let you know it.

One way to get a chance to do this would be to volunteer to coach at a local High School and gradually work your way up the ladder. If you get in good that way you can ask the college coaches if you can attend a film sessions as a learning tool. The coachign fraternity is very helpful and respectful of each other on all levels.

I only managed to play one year before mono took me down for the next two seasons and by senior year I was just too small and too far behind. I love the game, but almost all the kids out there probably know more about actually playing the game then i do, I wouldn't feel right trying to coach them. I do thank you for the advice though, and your insight on most things football, even when I don't agree.

 

[Charles]

My analysis on the picture.

It just another picture amongst the numerous showing Carter and Vinny practicing , talking , walking and laughing together.

Last offseason Parcells assigned Richie Anderson to Quincy Carter. Or maybe Carter attached himself to Richie.

Makes you go hmmmmmm

 

[Hostile]

Because you were there? Or ... ?

I am positive it was side by side reference drills because just about every team runs them for that purpose and I have been involved in them hundreds of times.

If it's less than full-speed, then how do we know they were all going at the same speed?

I doubt they were, nor do I feel I intimated they would. All I said was they are running the same drill side by side for reference and I referenced the 2 players against each other and the "textbook" of good mechanics. Both players have some faulty mechanics in that picture. I pointed it out. It really isn't all that hard to picture. Someone pointed out the difference in the length of reach and the feet and asked about what it meant. I submitted what it means to me as a former coach.

If only we could see the quarterback(s) to the right of Quincy, then we could really have a field day analyzing all three or four of them, huh?

I suppose so, assuming that all 4 were running this drill at the same time. From this picture I do not know that. I was not assuming 3 or 4 were running the drill. 2 clearly are. I referenced that and that alone.

Frankly, I just don't see how anyone could know they were all supposed to be *perfectly synchronized* unless you were there watching exactly what they were doing and knew exactly what they were supposed to do.

I am not saying "perfectly synchronized." I am saying with good or proper mechanics. I doubt many QBs could get rid of the ball as fast as Marino but I would expect soem to drop back faster than he did, etc.

 

[blindzebra]

I think what is being over looked here is the fact that the reason for the drill, I'm pretty sure, was just to get the QB's used to going threw the motions again before they had any live action.

Let's try not to over analyze a simple "get back in the flow of playing football because it's been a few months since I have" drill.

You play the way you practice. I HATE the Iverson, "It's only practice," mindset.

I seriously doubt that Parcells views ANY drill as unimportant, and the surest way to lose your job is to just go through the motions on a drill.

 

[Hostile]

I'm not necessarily criticizing your analysis. You are probably correct about it being a drill where they go on the coach's "bark".

Okay, the reason you go on the coaches bark is because he is the judge. There is something he wants to see. I have not looked at the photo since I posted my first critique of it but I seem to remember Payton is looking at Vinny's footwork.

I was just saying that there are other things that we aren't seeing. Were the RB's running at the same pace etc. Perhaps this view in conjunction with an overhead view would give us a better view of just where everybody was.....did the center snap the ball at exactly the same time?

I would doubt there were even RBs invloved in this drill. This a QBs drill. Similar in some respects to calesthenics. Trying to whip them into shape you might say.

I like when you analyze these things although I did give you a little bit of a hard time the first time you did this.

Thank you. I remember. Surprised no one has asked me to analyze the one of Q in my sig line to test me. For the record, other than being flat footed so that this throw is all arm, I love it. In my opinion good mechanics.

Let's all just remember that this is the first week in camp and mistakes are going to be made by all of our players. It's supposed to happen at this time. It's NOT supposed to happen with regularity during the season.

Not only do I remember that, but I also gave Vinny credit for 17 years of running these drills as a reference.