NBA Draft

[Manwiththeplan]

I think I heard on the telecast someone mention "stretch 5" in reference to Markkanen. Would be interesting. Shooting bigs to me are alot like drafting QB's in the NFL. Alot dont work out, but that doesnt mean you dont draft them because when you hit you hit big.

Hence the Knicks asking price for Porzingis.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Couple of interesting Mav's tidbits:

1) They've signed Johnathan Motley of Baylor to a two-way contract:



and

2) Cuban threatened to fire anyone who leaked their pick to the press before they made it:

http://uproxx.com/dimemag/cuban-ensured-mavs-draft-pick-wouldnt-get-leaked/

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Kings grabbed a lot of talent and I love Fox but again, how does anyone maximize having 4 young rookies like this.
Tough to see them do anything but trade Boogie and try to tank while playing kids.

We are on the same page but I don't think the Kings stand pat. There are rumors around Drummond interest by Sacramento so there may be an outline of a plan there. Will it work, who knows? I think they realize that they need to bring in Vet help but still in all, I like what they did in the draft, with what they had to work with. I like all those players on their face value.

JMO

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Have to disagree. You're basically saying that an 18 yr old person, who is considered in an adult in every state in which the NBA plays (47 states), can not attempt to make a living playing basketball in the NBA. I think that would make a very interesting class-action lawsuit against the NBA for restraint of trade.

From the players' perspective, there's incredible pressure on them to come out for any number of reasons. Many times its the potential to make life-changing money; and they're encouraged (pushed) by agents or prospective agents, family members, or friends who are looking to gain from the prospects' potential earnings.

If an NBA team thinks a player isn't ready but wants to have them on their roster, they should draft him (if he's available) and put him on their developmental league team. I think they should start drafting these guys late or as free agents and sign them to play in the NBDL at low salaries. Maybe they could implement a salary structure for high school players. That might slow the flow. The problem is, the teams don't have the discipline to stop themselves. With the success of guys like LeBron, Kobe, KG, Dwight Howard, Moses Malone and others, most teams are willing to take the chance on some high school phenom. If the kid doesn't work out, its on to the next one.

Yeah, you could not be more wrong. In fact, I say this in the post you reference:

"I know that some guys are ready and that they should be allowed to play in the NBA"

However, that doesn't change the fact that way too many of these kids are being drafted and not fulfilling their potential. In the NBA, it's not talent. Anybody who is drafted into the NBA has talent. It's the other things that make you successful. At 18 and 19, the overwhelming majority of kids don't have those kinds of skills developed yet. The idea that you are going to pay kids top dollar to play in a D league or sit and wait to be developed is unrealistic. Agents won't allow for this because they get paid on the top end and will not agree to such contracts. What you say later is true, the NBA is just gambling to hit and if it doesn't pan out, what happens to the kid? If you want to try and make an argument about kids and their ability to be successful, then what does it say about a practice where all you are doing is ruining the large majority of them before they ever reach a maturity level where they can actually have a good chance to make it in their chosen field?

What happens to the quality of the sport and what happens to NCAA Basketball? All of it suffers and you are really taking a chance with the NBA Brand itself. NBA is down by 15%, just this year, according to RSN ratings because the quality of the game is not as good, not as interesting. They are in a prime situation right now. In 10 years, they could be the #1 sport among the three majors in the U.S. but not if they don't fix this problem IMO. Football is easily the most popular sport in the U.S. by a wide margin but youth participation is on a serious decline. That's going to impact the NFL at some point and that's just the reality of it. However, the NBA needs to address the quality of it's own product, IMO. I think it's a mistake to continue the policy of robbing the NCAA of it's talent, bringing them into the NBA too early and basically weakening both the quality of the College game and their own. These players they are drafting early, they are not better then the older players, per say. They might have an opportunity to develop into a better player but they are still not developed enough to come int and be good NBA players. They need more time.

Those 47 states you mention, there is no law against hiring an 18 year old kid to become the CEO of a major company either but it doesn't happen. Where are the Class Action Law Suites there? At some point, you gotta look at things for what they are. You can't be successful in anything if you are eating your own children. That just doesn't work, ever.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Your arguments have several holes in them.

First you ask " ...what happens to NCAA Basketball?" That's irrelevant to the issue we're discussing. We're talking about the NBA and its employees. The NBA has absolutely no obligation to ensure the quality NCAA Basketball, particularly a legal obligation.

Second, you infer that the brand of the sport is somehow jeopardized by use of 18 yr old players and link them to the statistic provided by RSN that ratings are down 15%: "...you are really taking a chance with the NBA Brand itself. NBA is down by 15%." Then you support that claim by stating: "the quality of the game is not as good, not as interesting". Did RSN claim the decline in ratings and perception was due to the employment of 18 year olds? If so, did they provide evidence to support those claims? If they did, I'd be interested in reading the questions they asked and any other supporting documentation. If your answer to either of those questions is "no", your assertions are baseless.

Then you use the strawman argument: "Those 47 states you mention, there is no law against hiring an 18 year old kid to become the CEO of a major company either but it doesn't happen. Where are the Class Action Law Suites there?"
Do you have any evidence of any instance of a corporation anywhere in the history of the United States refusing to hire a person to become CEO because they were 18?... or to compare apples to apples here: a group of corporations colluding to deny any 18 year old the opportunity to become the CEO of their companies?

I can appreciate looking at things the way they are, rather than the way I want them to be. That's why I lean toward following the law, rather than public opinion.

 

[Biggems]

I was hoping to see more action from the Spurs. I wanted to come away with at least 4 picks, and I was absolutely ok with parting ways with Aldridge. Also, if need be, I would have been ok with losing Green. There were about 8 players I was looking at the Spurs drafting.

F/C Pacesniks - Latvia
F/C Hartenstein - Germany
F Bell - Oregon
G/F White III - Syracuse
G Hart - Villanova
G Allen - Arizona
G White - Colorado
G Barry - Florida

We got one of my players and he seems to fit the Spurs mold to a tee.

 

[jterrell]

Have to disagree. You're basically saying that an 18 yr old person, who is considered in an adult in every state in which the NBA plays (47 states), can not attempt to make a living playing basketball in the NBA. I think that would make a very interesting class-action lawsuit against the NBA for restraint of trade.

From the players' perspective, there's incredible pressure on them to come out for any number of reasons. Many times its the potential to make life-changing money; and they're encouraged (pushed) by agents or prospective agents, family members, or friends who are looking to gain from the prospects' potential earnings.

If an NBA team thinks a player isn't ready but wants to have them on their roster, they should draft him (if he's available) and put him on their developmental league team. I think they should start drafting these guys late or as free agents and sign them to play in the NBDL at low salaries. Maybe they could implement a salary structure for high school players. That might slow the flow. The problem is, the teams don't have the discipline to stop themselves. With the success of guys like LeBron, Kobe, KG, Dwight Howard, Moses Malone and others, most teams are willing to take the chance on some high school phenom. If the kid doesn't work out, its on to the next one.

devil's advocate here because I think this is a good debate with valid points on both sides.

counter points:
1. Players can go overseas to make living playing basketball if they choose.
2. NFL doesn't allow guys to enter draft until after 2 seasons on a college campus or in requisite years of age.
3. The pressure on kids is why you create rules to protect them.
4. Outside major injury which can be covered via insurance few kids are harmed in any way y a year in a college program.
5. 19 year olds are very seldom physically and yes mentally mature enough to handle NBA rigors which risks their long-term health.

--LeBron was ready for the NBA in every way. So was Kobe Bryant.
But a 100 other guys have entered too soon and had their careers derailed by youthfulness.
See D'Angelo Russell. He was a bit soft coming out. "Not a leader" says Magic. Made the crazy mistake of outing a teammate to his famous girlfriend. Now he's been traded. Russell probbaly wishes he'd have spent a 2nd season at Ohio State.

 

[Silver Surfer]

devil's advocate here because I think this is a good debate with valid points on both sides.

counter points:
1. Players can go overseas to make living playing basketball if they choose.
2. NFL doesn't allow guys to enter draft until after 2 seasons on a college campus or in requisite years of age.
3. The pressure on kids is why you create rules to protect them.
4. Outside major injury which can be covered via insurance few kids are harmed in any way y a year in a college program.
5. 19 year olds are very seldom physically and yes mentally mature enough to handle NBA rigors which risks their long-term health.

--LeBron was ready for the NBA in every way. So was Kobe Bryant.
But a 100 other guys have entered too soon and had their careers derailed by youthfulness.
See D'Angelo Russell. He was a bit soft coming out. "Not a leader" says Magic. Made the crazy mistake of outing a teammate to his famous girlfriend. Now he's been traded. Russell probbaly wishes he'd have spent a 2nd season at Ohio State.

1) Yes, but that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not they should be denied the opportunity to play in the NBA, which to my knowledge, is subject to the laws of the USA.

2) Same point as I raised in my initial post: I think it would make a very interesting case if someone or group challenged them in court. Business and political issues aside, is it legal to deny them as adults the opportunity to make a living?

3) Again, the age of 18 is considered the age of majority in 47 states and every state the NBA has a franchise located.

USA law has shown they don't really care about protecting 18 year olds. Case in point, if they implement the rule against 18 year olds, it would be OK for Uncle Sam to take/make them a soldier and get their heads blown off in Iraq or Afghanistan, but they couldn't make a living playing basketball in the NBA.

4) See answer to 1. In addition, you don't consider the loss of income for 2 years of at least the minimum NBA contract being harmed? I don't think the law agrees with you.

5) Yes, and irrelevant.

As you mention, age and maturity are generally correlated, but not necessarily so. They've got a developmental league established, they should use it rather than deny adults the right to work.

 

[L-O-Jete]

1) Yes, but that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not they should be denied the opportunity to play in the NBA, which to my knowledge, is subject to the laws of the USA.

2) Same point as I raised in my initial post: I think it would make a very interesting case if someone or group challenged them in court. Business and political issues aside, is it legal to deny them as adults the opportunity to make a living?

3) Again, the age of 18 is considered the age of majority in 47 states and every state the NBA has a franchise located.

USA law has shown they don't really care about protecting 18 year olds. Case in point, if they implement the rule against 18 year olds, it would be OK for Uncle Sam to take/make them a soldier and get their heads blown off in Iraq or Afghanistan, but they couldn't make a living playing basketball in the NBA.

4) See answer to 1. In addition, you don't consider the loss of income for 2 years of at least the minimum NBA contract being harmed? I don't think the law agrees with you.

5) Yes, and irrelevant.

As you mention, age and maturity are generally correlated, but not necessarily so. They've got a developmental league established, they should use it rather than deny adults the right to work.

Nor can 18 year olds consume alcohol (for their own protection I guess) so not really adults with equal rights are they...?

 

[Silver Surfer]

Nor can 18 year olds consume alcohol (for their own protection I guess) so not really adults with equal rights are they...?

With respect to drinking age, every state has its own laws. Its called Federalism and I support it. I wish there was more of it. If California wants to abide by the Kyoto Protocol, they should "have at it". Likewise, if Texas wants to pass a ban on sanctuary cities, they should be able to do that also. I believe that's what was intended when James Madison introduced the 10th Amendment to the Constitution.

That being said, the NBA is nation-wide organization governed by Federal Law and the issue we're discussing is labor law not drinking age.

 

[jterrell]

1) Yes, but that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not they should be denied the opportunity to play in the NBA, which to my knowledge, is subject to the laws of the USA.

2) Same point as I raised in my initial post: I think it would make a very interesting case if someone or group challenged them in court. Business and political issues aside, is it legal to deny them as adults the opportunity to make a living?

3) Again, the age of 18 is considered the age of majority in 47 states and every state the NBA has a franchise located.

USA law has shown they don't really care about protecting 18 year olds. Case in point, if they implement the rule against 18 year olds, it would be OK for Uncle Sam to take/make them a soldier and get their heads blown off in Iraq or Afghanistan, but they couldn't make a living playing basketball in the NBA.

4) See answer to 1. In addition, you don't consider the loss of income for 2 years of at least the minimum NBA contract being harmed? I don't think the law agrees with you.

5) Yes, and irrelevant.

As you mention, age and maturity are generally correlated, but not necessarily so. They've got a developmental league established, they should use it rather than deny adults the right to work.

There are plenty of laws that state you can't do things until 21, like drink.
The NBA and NFL has thus far been exempt from anti-trust laws.
Sports Leagues are massive corporations and can hire and fire at will.
Ageism is by default illegal as discriminatory but outlawing things below certain ages for safety concerns is the easiest loophole to the law.
Bars can be 21+, can even be 35 and up.
Any number of places can give senior citizen discounts.
And certainly any number of jobs require 2 years of college or "requisite experience" to hire you. Easy to say they need two years post high school basketball experience to get around Age.

It is basically illegal to force entry through a draft. So doing so with any age limit attached is probably also illegal but good luck winning that case legally in this country.

 

[Silver Surfer]

I discussed that in my earlier post.

Your point about anti-trust laws is the reason I'd like to see the challenge made. They've been given special status by the government to protect them from competition, but in this instance may be violating the law. Notice how quickly they started to make policy changes when the Ray Rice issue came up? How about the Rooney rule? Those are two examples of the NFL trying to avoid government intervention.

To the extent they're non-discriminatory, you are correct.

Back to my earlier argument, 18 yr olds are safe enough to kill, but not play basketball?

Bars are private enterprises, just like the NBA/NFL, but they aren't given special protection by the government via anti-trust.

So?

Again, private enterprises not protected by anti-trust law.

Don't get your point. Government can reinstate the draft anytime it wants. Listen to your radio, they advertise all the time about how 18 yr olds are required to register for it. If its illegal, why are they enforcing that requirement?

 

[jterrell]

various:
read an actually good article on this on bspn.

nba wants to move age to 20.
nbapa wants to go to 18
college coaches like Calipari and coach K favor the "baseball" rule.
kid can enter at 18 but if he goes to college he has to stay 3 years.

Calipari made some very salient points, saying Kentucky gives lifetime scholarships so his players come for 1 year then can graduate any time in forever.
Said he sees the benefits of the rule making college mandatory as HS kids now hit books harder to get into college.
Said the grad rate for African-American basketball players is at an all-time high now.
So he now supports the rule he originally thought was a bad one.

I'm as player friendly as it gets. Players run the league, they are the product.
But you protect kids. Period. Many times from themselves.
I tend to think moving the age to 20 is the best move. I think NFL players have the best system.
Guys enter the league physically matured a bit.
NBA bodies where guys are 6'10" and still gaining height at 18... those kids need time to develop.
And if you are gonna pay them, pay them real money. 2 mil a year is not big-time professional athlete money. That's what a guy drafted around pick 20 gets.
The guys in round 2 can end up making so little they lose money trying to latch onto an NBA team for a real contract.
It's not like 2mil is a horrible income but it's the way professional sports eat your money.
Taxes are high, personal basketball trainers are pricey, scouts may have loaned yu money to get in draft prep camps, many of these guys ride off endorsements and scrape through that 2nd or 3rd year, awaiting real money.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

T'Wolves just basically swapped PG Rubio for PG Jeff Teague. Not sure if that's much of an improvement, plus Teague is 3 years older. Maybe they thought he was a better fit. They're also targeting PF Millsap. That'll give them a pretty impressive veteran unit to go with their two young stars.

PG Teague
SG Butler
SF Wiggins
PF Millsap
C Towns

 

[jterrell]

T'Wolves just basically swapped PG Rubio for PG Jeff Teague. Not sure if that's much of an improvement, plus Teague is 3 years older. Maybe they thought he was a better fit. They're also targeting PF Millsap. That'll give them a pretty impressive veteran unit to go with their two young stars.

PG Teague
SG Butler
SF Wiggins
PF Millsap
C Towns

Minny has been the "intriguing" team forever it seems.
Teague is a much better scorer and shooter. But Rubio gets twice as many steals and is a better rebounder.
Both pass it well.

Prolly slight upgrade for Minny.
Not sure how to feel about Millsap since they really should be getting all the post touches to KAT.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

Minny has been the "intriguing" team forever it seems.
Teague is a much better scorer and shooter. But Rubio gets twice as many steals and is a better rebounder.
Both pass it well.

Prolly slight upgrade for Minny.
Not sure how to feel about Millsap since they really should be getting all the post touches to KAT.

Yeah, I remember I thought they were gonna take the next step when the had the white trio of Love, Rubio and Pekovic. Now they're all gone and they have a solid young duo of KAT and Wiggins to go along with some solid vets like Butler and Teague. We'll see. They still haven't had a winning season since KG, Sam the Martian Cassell and Latrell Choke Em Out Sprewell.

 

[PJTHEDOORS]

No Ball, Ingram, or Josh Hart, Lakers still have enough for Summer League title. Proud of my man Kuzma, drafted 1/27 from Utah, winning game mvp. The guy reminds me a lot of Lamar Odom. Kid really has improved his 3pt shot.

 

[jterrell]

No Ball, Ingram, or Josh Hart, Lakers still have enough for Summer League title. Proud of my man Kuzma, drafted 1/27 from Utah, winning game mvp. The guy reminds me a lot of Lamar Odom. Kid really has improved his 3pt shot.

Kuzma reminds me of another insanely underrated player coming out of the state of Michigan....
He is more mature and ready than the 19 year old rookies mostly.
I don't think he'll be Draymond Green, obviously, but he could be that type of steal.
Looks like he played harder than most summer league guys and had developed skill.