Neighborhood watch captain kills black teen - doesn't get arrested

[TheCount]

There are legal degrees of murder that are based on INTENT, but the reasoning of a sane individual has no business affecting the outcome of a murder trial nor the punishment.

I think ideally, that would be the case. I don't disagree. However, biases can play a part in how things escalate when **** hits the fan. Someone that might normally have settled for a sound beating of an opponent could escalate to broke bones (or worse) based on biases.

In a court, it CAN be important to note that. And I'm not talking about just race here. When someone ties a homosexual to the back of their truck and drag him to his death, that's not something they necessarily would have done if the person was straight.

In short, the difference between a confrontation escalating or not escalating beyond reasonable limits CAN be influenced by long held biases. I don't think that should be completely disregarded.

Something to note is Martin's mother is not treating this as racial issue. However, Martin's father is definitely treating it as a racial issue.

Precisely, form the beginning all she's asked for is justice for her murdered son.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Looks like Zimmerman is the bad guy in all of this.

But I bet he would have reacted the same if it was a long haired white guy walking around his "turf" at night.

Wannabe cops like him love the feeling of power and are very territorial.

I cannot stand race baiting posters who try to find crap in every case.

By the same token I don't care for posters that will say and do anything to make out like race has nothing to do with any of it...when it does.

There seems to be some that take a hard line stance on either side of the issue.

There are also some that will turn it around if it is reversed...I saw that in the kid getting lit on fire thread.

In the end people should take it as individual cases instead of automatically jumping on the it's racially motivated no matter what OR the it's not racially motivated no matter what.

Each thing needs to be weighed.

 

[WoodysGirl]

Looks like Zimmerman is the bad guy in all of this.

But I bet he would have reacted the same if it was a long haired white guy walking around his "turf" at night.

Wannabe cops like him love the feeling of power and are very territorial.

I cannot stand race baiting posters who try to find crap in every case.

Maybe he was power tripping, but I refuse to not acknowledge that race could've played a part. It's not about race baiting. It's about understanding that it's a possibility. And until some solid evidence comes out stating otherwise, then I'll choose to believe that there was some profiling going on. And suggesting that this particular individual profiled young Martin, is not an indictment against a whole race. It just means this guy is a boob, and that others out there still exist.

As I stated on FB yesterday, "America's a long way from where it used to be, but it still has a long way to go in some circles. We just have to continue to push forward."

 

[The30YardSlant]

I actually agree with 99% of what you just said here. I haven't said, nor fully believe given little evidence, that Zimmerman was racist. Only that he profiled based on stereotypes.

But, it does matter why he thought he was suspicious because it is wrong to assume guilt. The police do it, and the statistics bear it out. This profiling is wrong because you shouldn't assume guilt based on how someone looks. I've never been pulled over while I was driving, but when my Latina sisters (in my sorority) was driving, we've been pulled over three times and the police always had some bogus story for why he needed to see ALL our licenses (even those of us not driving). It stinks.

The problem is two-fold, we have a society in which certain groups place some sort of value on criminal activity or "fighting the system" and because of that the statistical probabilities cause law enforcement to profile ALL the members of those given groups. The biggest "groups" in question are young black/hispanic males and people wearing certain types of clothing. When a black or hispanic male is also wearing certain clothing it just compounds the affect.

My brother is law is a Dallas police officer and he'll tell you they have an unwritten policy of pulling people dressed as "hood rats" driving certain types of cars over more frequently because the studies show that certain people wearing certain things and driving certain cars have a very high probability of carrying out illegal activity, most often associated with drugs or illegal weapons. The fact that more often than not people who dress that way and drive those cars are hispanic or black is where a lot of people confuse racism with societal bias regarding lifestyles IMO. Is it right? Maybe not, but I do believe the common idea of "why pull over 100 grandmothers just to justify pulling over one "thug"?" has a least some merit to it.

 

[CowboyDan]

My brother is law is a Dallas police officer and he'll tell you they have an unwritten policy of pulling people dressed as "hood rats" driving certain types of cars over more frequently because the studies show that certain people wearing certain things and driving certain cars have a very high probability of carrying out illegal activity, most often associated with drugs or illegal weapons. The fact that more often than not people who dress that way and drive those cars are hispanic or black is where a lot of people confuse racism with societal bias regarding lifestyles IMO. Is it right? Maybe not, but I do believe the common idea of "why pull over 100 grandmothers just to justify pulling over one "thug"?" has a least some merit to it.

Land of the free, home of the brave.

I don't think it's right to pull anyone over because of how they dress. Do you think we should pull people over who are dressed in a suit because of the millions upon millions of dollars lost by white collar crime?

 

[The30YardSlant]

By the same token I don't care for posters that will say and do anything to make out like race has nothing to do with any of it...when it does.

There seems to be some that take a hard line stance on either side of the issue.

There are also some that will turn it around if it is reversed...I saw that in the kid getting lit on fire thread.

In the end people should take it as individual cases instead of automatically jumping on the it's racially motivated no matter what OR the it's not racially motivated no matter what.

Each thing needs to be weighed.

Race very well may have had something to do with it, I'm just saying that it doesn't matter.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Land of the free, home of the brave.

Like I said, it's a complicated issue and I'm not prepared to say anybody is entirely at fault for it. In a perfect world people wouldnt glorify ciminal activity and cops wouldnt profile, but the two will likely always perpetuate each other to some degree.

 

[iceberg]

Maybe he was power tripping, but I refuse to not acknowledge that race could've played a part. It's not about race baiting. It's about understanding that it's a possibility. And until some solid evidence comes out stating otherwise, then I'll choose to believe that there was some profiling going on. And suggesting that this particular individual profiled young Martin, is not an indictment against a whole race. It just means this guy is a boob, and that others out there still exist.

As I stated on FB yesterday, "America's a long way from where it used to be, but it still has a long way to go in some circles. We just have to continue to push forward."

amen, WG. i've always felt evolution was a slow process and it is here as well. it will take time to get to where this is less and less of an issue with each passing generation. we're a far cry from where we used to be for sure and all we can do is keep evolving and growing past our own fears.

 

[Cythim]

I tested to become a police officer once, I got to the part where you watch a video and answer questions about the situation. The particular situation I saw involved a group of young black males dressed as "hood rats" (I would call it typical hip hop type gear that you see in most music videos). Part of the reason I failed this section is because I did not identify these kids as possibly being in a gang, even though there were no colors or any typical gang related clothes other than the way they dressed, which was typical for normal kids their age. That was the first and last time I tried to become a cop.

 

[JonJon]

Before this turns into a full blown race vs race debate, lets not get too far away from the real issue here, that a human being, regardless of race, was murdered unjustifiably and that the murder is still at large, due to shoddy work by the police department.

That is the real issue. Whether he was black or white or latino doesn't supersede the fact that he was a human who's life was brought to an abrupt end. There is no more days for Trayvon, no more dreams, no more aspirations, no more life, period. All because some paranoid man took unnecessary actions.

Now it would be very naive of me to say that racial profiling and race-related crimes have not taken place due to this history of this country, but the real issue is that a life is gone and that the killer still remains at large, and that it took the outcry of the public before any serious investigations took place.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Very important thing to note. He may not have been racist, per se, but it doesn't mean that some sort of racial profiling didn't occur.

Something to note is Martin's mother is not treating this as racial issue. However, Martin's father is definitely treating it as a racial issue.

I don't doubt it, maternal grief likely leaves no room for "why". Her baby is dead and someone killed him, I can't imagine much else mattering to her.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Race very well may have had something to do with it, I'm just saying that it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter to those that don't want to see it.

To those that have seen it, been victims of it, it does matter.

To act like racism does not exist, to act like everything is just hunk dory, to just totally dismiss it as not a problem is silly and dangerous.

I can't even know how you can in one part of your post say it could have had something to do with it just in the next part say that it doesn't matter.

Do you realize how silly that is.

Again IF race had something to do with it and zimmerman followed this kid because race had something to do with it...that matters.

 

[Doomsday101]

Before this turns into a full blown race vs race debate, lets not get too far away from the real issue here, that a human being, regardless of race, was murdered unjustifiably and that the murder is still at large, due to shoddy work by the police department.

That is the real issue. Whether he was black or white or latino doesn't supersede the fact that he was a human who's life was brought to an abrupt end. There is no more days for Trayvon, no more dreams, no more aspirations, no more life, period. All because some paranoid man took unnecessary actions.

Now it would be very naive of me to say that racial profiling and race-related crimes have not taken place due to this history of this country, but the real issue is that a life is gone and that the killer still remains at large, and that it took the outcry of the public before any serious investigations took place.

I'm with you.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Before this turns into a full blown race vs race debate, lets not get too far away from the real issue here, that a human being, regardless of race, was murdered unjustifiably and that the murder is still at large, due to shoddy work by the police department.

That is the real issue. Whether he was black or white or latino doesn't supersede the fact that he was a human who's life was brought to an abrupt end. There is no more days for Trayvon, no more dreams, no more aspirations, no more life, period. All because some paranoid man took unnecessary actions.

Now it would be very naive of me to say that racial profiling and race-related crimes have not taken place due to this history of this country, but the real issue is that a life is gone and that the killer still remains at large, and that it took the outcry of the public before any serious investigations took place.

The police department's actions seem baffling to me, because as I said early in this thread I can't fathom how they didnt arrest him without there being more to the story. I still feel that way, HOW could they not arrest him if it really is as simple as it appears now to be?

I don't care if he had friends in the department, and I don't care that the kid was a young black male. I've NEVER heard of someone just walking away from something like this in our current day and age. They didnt even detain him for questioning. It makes absolutely no sense.

 

[VietCowboy]

The problem is two-fold, we have a society in which certain groups place some sort of value on criminal activity or "fighting the system" and because of that the statistical probabilities cause law enforcement to profile ALL the members of those given groups. The biggest "groups" in question are young black/hispanic males and people wearing certain types of clothing. When a black or hispanic male is also wearing certain clothing it just compounds the affect.

My brother is law is a Dallas police officer and he'll tell you they have an unwritten policy of pulling people dressed as "hood rats" driving certain types of cars over more frequently because the studies show that certain people wearing certain things and driving certain cars have a very high probability of carrying out illegal activity, most often associated with drugs or illegal weapons. The fact that more often than not people who dress that way and drive those cars are hispanic or black is where a lot of people confuse racism with societal bias regarding lifestyles IMO. Is it right? Maybe not, but I do believe the common idea of "why pull over 100 grandmothers just to justify pulling over one "thug"?" has a least some merit to it.

Still, why is it okay to do that? I can provide evidence later tonight, but vaguely remember that the majority of blacks who have the police search their car actually don't find anything (i.e. like less than 30% find illegal activity/things) whereas over 70% of whites who have the police search their car find something illegal. The probable cause 'bar' is much lower for blacks than others (and we can even say it's reverse in Asians).

"Although blacks and Hispanics are more likely to be searched, whites are more likely than any other racial group to face drug charges following a search - supporting a claim by minorities that they are searched with less reason."

 

[The30YardSlant]

It doesn't matter to those that don't want to see it.

To those that have seen it, been victims of it, it does matter.

To act like racism does not exist, to act like everything is just hunk dory, to just totally dismiss it as not a problem is silly and dangerous.

I can't even know how you can in one part of your post say it could have had something to do with it just in the next part say that it doesn't matter.

Do you realize how silly that is.

Again IF race had something to do with it and zimmerman followed this kid because race had something to do with it...that matters.

Like I said, given the current information I have NO problem seeing it. There are stereotypes (and racism DOES exist, from all sides), and almost all of us base our thinking on them daily. The difference is that most of us don't act on them and manage to live peaceful, civil lives with others. Zimmerman did not. It doesnt matter if it was race based because his bias is no excuse for murder and it does not make the murder any worse.

 

[Doomsday101]

It doesn't matter to those that don't want to see it.

To those that have seen it, been victims of it, it does matter.

To act like racism does not exist, to act like everything is just hunk dory, to just totally dismiss it as not a problem is silly and dangerous.

I can't even know how you can in one part of your post say it could have had something to do with it just in the next part say that it doesn't matter.

Do you realize how silly that is.

Again IF race had something to do with it and zimmerman followed this kid because race had something to do with it...that matters.

Racism exist it will always exist sadly enough. There will always be those who will judge a person by their skin than who they are as a person. As for murder I don't care the reason I expect the same punishment regardless of skin color or how you were dressed.

In Texas people got upset because the men who killed James Byrd were not charged with a hate crime. Fact is these men were found guilty of capital murder and were put to death. The penalty does not get any harsher.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I think race has a lot to do with it on both Zimmerman's side and the Police.

From the article listed by JonJon

Now Chief Lee, who came on the job just 10 months ago for $102,000 a year to clean up a department tainted by racial scandals

Complete Article

They said Zimmerman made a racial slur to the 911 operator and the above proves racial scandals isn't anything new for either of them.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Still, why is it okay to do that? I can provide evidence later tonight, but vaguely remember that the majority of blacks who have the police search their car actually don't find anything (i.e. like less than 30% find illegal activity/things) whereas over 70% of whites who have the police search their car find something illegal. The probable cause 'bar' is much lower for blacks than others (and we can even say it's reverse in Asians).

I didn't say it was "ok", I'm saying that it has probably gotten a lot of criminals off the street just because of probabilities. That does make it right but it means that there is no way to treat it in a way in which everyone is happy because our society has so many social flaws. Is it any less "right" to let what one believes to be an obvious criminal walk away and then they go and kill someone?

There is no true right or wrong, because either way you're going to have people saying "if only so and so" had done things differently. People have rights, but at what point do you have no one to blame but yourself if you do certain things or hang out with certain people long enough and it turns your life in the wrong direction? That goes for ALL groups of people.

"Although blacks and Hispanics are more likely to be searched, whites are more likely than any other racial group to face drug charges following a search - supporting a claim by minorities that they are searched with less reason."

This isnt surprising. Again, it's not "right" but it's the way things are.

 

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