NewyScruggs Blog: Wade Phillips Stands Behind Michael Vick

[Stautner]

Go out and adopt a cow and teach it how to fetch a ball. Teach it how to be an eye seeing cow. Teach it what you can teach a dog.

Or, get lost in the water....(as if you're not already)!

I agree with much of what you have said in this thread, but I'm not sure I can go along with this line of thought. I'm not sure it makes sense to say it's okay to kill the dumber animals but not okay to kill the ones than have a somewhat higher degree of intelligence.



To me the argument on this is still about cattle being a natural food source for carnivores (which men are) versus intentional cruelty.

A cock isn't a particularly bright animal, but cockfighting has been banned for good reason - it's just plain cruelty.




No matter what Jay-D says, the motivation for and the method of killing does matter.

All killing is not the same - just as killing is self-defense is not the same as intentionally torturing and killing an innocent person.

 

[Hostile]

Hmmmm......that's strange because I also grew up in a farm environment and EVERYBODY knows that cattle are domesticated.

Domestication refers to the process of taming a wild animal for companionship or labor or food. Livestock didn't just show up on the farm waiting to be slaughtered....humans had to capture and domesticate them.

If there weren't fences they'd wander off. Go up to a bull and pet it. Some you can. Most you cannot. Just like with everything else there are levels. Comparing cattle to dogs is a stretch.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They are afforded the right to whatever the law deems as humane treatment, ad whether you view it as hyopocrisy or not, it's still the law, and, if guilty, a law Vick willingly broke and gambled on getting away with.

Dear lord Im not arguing that the state given the laws as they are is not taking the proper action. They do have a Constitutional mandate to uphold the law regardless of how asinine or hypocritical they may be.

Im just saying that I find incarceration for killing and torturing some animals and not others to be a very very bad thing.

 

[Jay-D]

Oh! So YOU have seen Vick with pit bulls, huh? Well, then that explains your stance in this conversation!

Yes....I remember reading a Sports Illustrated article about Vick just before he entered the league. There were 3 or 4 pictures of him walking around with his pit bull.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Unless I am missing your point, Vick is not incarcerated.

I see no "gross hypocrisy" as it pertains to Vick, though I do see where people can question why he is being sanctioned prior to a trial, same as I could for the others who have been. Thus I suppose I see hypocrisy, but I expect that to exist. As I said we are all human.

Do I advocate incarceration? Absolutely. For Vick? If he is convicted, yes. Prior to conviction? No, only because I do not consider him a risk to others or for flight. If the charge was murder of a human being I would not want him free on bail.

I'm not given to wild insinuations of my fellow man, but I also don't have much faith in my fellow man because I know we all have failings. I do nto make excuses for mine, nor will I accept excuses for the obvious failings of others. I can dislike a great many things that are legal. I feel no need compare legal things to illegal things and paint my fellow man.

This is why I am no good at discussions of which is more destructive, drugs or alcohol. I don't care which is more destructive. I care which is legal and which isn't. If someone wants to drink alcohol in a responsible way it's none of my business. If someone wants to do drugs, even if it's in the privacy of their own home, I hope they get caught, arrested, and punished. It's illegal. They're not harming anyone? I don't care.

What does this all mean? It means that I know I am a hypocrite in some ways and I have no fear of admitting it because the one thing I will not do is lie to myself, or to you. You're a hypocrite too. Make no mistake about that. No amount of piety can excuse any man of this judgment unless he is someone akin to Ghandhi, Mother Teresa, the Dalai Llama, etc. and his life's meaning is a higher plane. No disrespect to you, but if you were among those souls you wouldn't have time for a favorite football team.

Ultimately it comes down to this Fuzzy. When I look in the mirror each day to shave or brush my teeth, I'm not ashamed of that ugly bastid staring back at me and nothing you or anyone else can say is going to make me ashamed of that reflection. Know why? Because I don't hide from my faults, but I do work on overcoming them.

I do not stab people in the back, and even my "enemies" could come to me in their greatest time of need and I would do whatever I could to help them. There are some guys on another forum who mock the death of my son. The absolute lowest time of my life. Those guys all have sons. Not a day goes by that I don't pray that those guys who hate my guts never have to suffer through what happened to me. I don't do it to feel superior over them or because I believe in karma. I do it simply because no man should bury his own child.

Now you have a look into my psyche and some of its flaws. The choice to respect me for them or disrespect me for them is yours.

Your dancing here brah.

Do you see the hypocrisy in saying that it is not okay to dogfight given the treatment of animals in general?

Do you feel it is okay to incarcerate people for dogfighting?

 

[DallasEast]

Whether people agree with it or not, there is a worthwhile purpose for killing cows for human consumption. Note that I did not say that there aren't any alternative food sources to eating meat derived from cattle.

The same cannot be said of the maiming and killing dogs for sport. A hamburger can stop your stomach from growling. A dead dog is simply a dead dog. People can keep comparing the two, but there's nothing to tie them to each other--that is, unless someone believes that a glutamate rush is equal to that of actual, biological, and nutritional food intake.

That's it. I've got work to do.

 

[5Stars]

Hmmmm......that's strange because I also grew up in a farm environment and EVERYBODY knows that cattle are domesticated.

Domestication refers to the process of taming a wild animal for companionship or labor or food. Livestock didn't just show up on the farm waiting to be slaughtered....humans had to capture and domesticate them.

And where does a dog fit into this? Do we eat them in our society? Do they provide labor? Yes they do! They help us in any way they can, even without having to train them! What about a horse? Do they help us? Yes they do! Do we eat them?

You have no friggen clue what you are talking about...as usual!

 

[Stautner]

Dear lord Im not arguing that the state given the laws as they are is not taking the proper action. They do have a Constitutional mandate to uphold the law regardless of how asinine or hypocritical they may be.

Im just saying that I find incarceration for killing and torturing some animals and not others to be a very very bad thing.

The law trumps all - Vick (if guilty) is not an innocent.

And, as I said earlier, and can accept that there may be some grounds for arguing hypocrisy when it comes to hunting for pure sport, but not with the killing for food.

We are the top of the foo chain and we are carnivores ........ we eat meat, and whether meat is killed with teeth and claws like a lion or with a gun or with other means then it is still not the same as training animals to destroy each other in a bloody battle, and then hanging or drowning those dogs deemed inferior.

All killing is not the same - motivation and method do matter.

 

[Jay-D]

If there weren't fences they'd wander off. Go up to a bull and pet it. Some you can. Most you cannot. Just like with everything else there are levels. Comparing cattle to dogs is a stretch.

It's a universally accepted fact that livestock are domesticated animals. I don't know what farm you were on but if you opened the gate at ours, the cows would stand there and wait for instruction!

Of course if you took down the fences permanatly the cattle would regress back into a feral state......just like pigs and cats and dogs do.

The fact remains that we as humans captured, domesticated, and bred livestock to murder them for food.

I don't see how comparing cattle to dogs is a stretch at all. They are both living, breathing mammals.....and if you've been around livestock you know that they recognize and appreciate human contact.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So, feeding beef based puppy chow to your dog is the same as training dogs to kill and maim each other then hanging and drowning the losing dogs or dogs that are deemed sub-par as killing machines............

And we are murderers for killing meat for food just as lions are murderers for killing antelope for food and snakes are murderers for killing rats for food ........

and it all is the same as training dogs to kill and maim each other then hanging and drowning the losing dogs or dogs that are deemed sub-par as killing machines............

What would you say would be worse?

A) Herding people into pens and transporting them to a warehouse where they are killed conveyor belt style by the thousands.

B) Gladiatorial combat where the loser dies.



or


A) Spending your entire time in a box so you cannot move before ultimately heading to aforementioned warehouse.

B) Gladiatorial combat to the death.


or

A) Killing people at random for their scalps

B) Gladiatorial combat to the death.

 

[5Stars]

I agree with much of what you have said in this thread, but I'm not sure I can go along with this line of thought. I'm not sure it makes sense to say it's okay to kill the dumber animals but not okay to kill the ones than have a somewhat higher degree of intelligence.



To me the argument on this is still about cattle being a natural food source for carnivores (which men are) versus intentional cruelty.

A cock isn't a particularly bright animal, but cockfighting has been banned for good reason - it's just plain cruelty.




No matter what Jay-D says, the motivation for and the method of killing does matter.

All killing is not the same - just as killing is self-defense is not the same as intentionally torturing and killing an innocent person.

I totally agree with you. It's just sometimes you have to try and explain things in the extreme to make a point.

This guy, Jay-D also has some other bizarre thoughts about other fighting! i'll let him explain that!!

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The law trumps all - Vick (if guilty) is not an innocent.

And, as I said earlier, and can accept that there may be some grounds for arguing hypocrisy when it comes to hunting for pure sport, but not with the killing for food.

We are the top of the foo chain and we are carnivores ........ we eat meat, and whether meat is killed with teeth and claws like a lion or with a gun or with other means then it is still not the same as training animals to destroy each other in a bloody battle, and then hanging or drowning those dogs deemed inferior.

All killing is not the same - motivation and method do matter.

And Im saying that the law should be changed because its wrong. I love it when you cant actually defend the law so you fall back to 'its the law.'

This also fails to rationalize trophy hnting, rodeos, and cosmetic testing as well as the veal and fur trade.

Sure kill to eat but kill to eat tender or kill to look pretty or kill for the rush or sport of it?

 

[Jay-D]

And where does a dog fit into this? Do we eat them in our society? Do they provide labor? Yes they do! They help us in any way they can, even without having to train them! What about a horse? Do they help us? Yes they do! Do we eat them?

You have no friggen clue what you are talking about...as usual!

If you simply cannot understand the concept of domesticating a wild animal for human use, then I cannot carry on a conversation with you about this matter any farther.

Apparantly in your world cattle just walked up and asked to be slaughtered. I don't live in that world, because it's not real.

 

[Hostile]

Your dancing here brah.

Do you see the hypocrisy in saying that it is not okay to dogfight given the treatment of animals in general?

Do you feel it is okay to incarcerate people for dogfighting?

Do I see the hypocrisy? Personally, no for the exact same reason I already stated. Do I see where others can feel it is? Sure. Am I required to believe exactly as they do about it? No, and I have no intention to.

As I said before and you seemed to disagree with, we are all hypocrites on some level. If you see this as me being hypocritical...oh well. If I see your condemnation of other who think as I do as hypocritical...oh well.

Do I feel it is right to incarcerate people for dogfighting? I already answered this. If he is convicted, yes. I am fine with it. It's illegal.

No amount of discussion about the fur trade, slaughterhouses, wearing leather belts and shoes, or rodeos is going to change that. Dog fighting is illegal. Period. It isn't right for him to do it. It wouldn't be right for me to do it.

Why do you think they painted the buildings and the fences black and hold these events at night if it isn't meant to be secretive and illicit? Are you maintaining that rodeos, slaughterhouses and the fur trade only do their deeds at night under stealth?

I'm not that complicated Fuzzy. All you gotta do is ask me a direct question instead of beating around the bush.

 

[Hostile]

It's a universally accepted fact that livestock are domesticated animals. I don't know what farm you were on but if you opened the gate at ours, the cows would stand there and wait for instruction!

Of course if you took down the fences permanatly the cattle would regress back into a feral state......just like pigs and cats and dogs do.

The fact remains that we as humans captured, domesticated, and bred livestock to murder them for food.

I don't see how comparing cattle to dogs is a stretch at all. They are both living, breathing mammals.....and if you've been around livestock you know that they recognize and appreciate human contact.

Universally accepted means the whole world agrees with you. Like it or not I am a part of this world.

It is not murder for food. Murder is the taking of HUMAN life.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Do I see the hypocrisy? Personally, no for the exact same reason I already stated. Do I see where others can feel it is? Sure. Am I required to believe exactly as they do about it? No, and I have no intention to.

As I said before and you seemed to disagree with, we are all hypocrites on some level. If you see this as me being hypocritical...oh well. If I see your condemnation of other who think as I do as hypocritical...oh well.

Do I feel it is right to incarcerate people for dogfighting? I already answered this. If he is convicted, yes. I am fine with it. It's illegal.

No amount of discussion about the fur trade, slaughterhouses, wearing leather belts and shoes, or rodeos is going to change that. Dog fighting is illegal. Period. It isn't right for him to do it. It wouldn't be right for me to do it.

Why do you think they painted the buildings and the fences black and hold these events at night if it isn't meant to be secretive and illicit? Are you maintaining that rodeos, slaughterhouses and the fur trade only do their deeds at night under stealth?

I'm not that complicated Fuzzy. All you gotta do is ask me a direct question instead of beating around the bush.

I am not arguing that as of today dogfighting is illegal. im questioning the motivations and consistencies of it being illegal. People can be hypocritical all day long but IMO the law should not be.

 

[Stautner]

And Im saying that the law should be changed because its wrong. I love it when you cant actually defend the law so you fall back to 'its the law.'

This also fails to rationalize trophy hnting, rodeos, and cosmetic testing as well as the veal and fur trade.

Sure kill to eat but kill to eat tender or kill to look pretty or kill for the rush or sport of it?

I can easily defend the law - and I have.

As for arguing with me over killing for sport, I already conceded there was an element of hypocrisy in that, although it's still not exactly apples to apples as you seem to think. Quit trying to win points arguing with me over something I'm not even disputing.

Killing for food is another issue though - there is no hypocrisy in that in the least.

By the way, rodeos don't torture or kill animals other than the rare accident that can happen anytime. In fact, rodeo livestock is treated very well, if for no other reason than the quality of the sport depends on the quality of the livestock.

 

[fortdick]

I understand that but it really pisses me off that people are incarcerated for this type of thing while we live in a culture where animal slavery, killing and torture for vice are societal norms.

You are limiting the liberty and rights of human beings for the sentiments of dog lovers and the rights of dogs. Its hypocritical illogical and contemptible.

As for the Indian thing man is by far not the only predator of deer.

Animal slavery? Where is Abraham Lincoln when you need him? LOL!

Animal slavery! You can't be serious?

 

[Hostile]

I am not arguing that as of today dogfighting is illegal. im questioning the motivations and consistencies of it being illegal. People can be hypocritical all day long but IMO the law should not be.

In my opinion, the law on this is not hypocritical. I am glad it is illegal. I wish it had always been illegal.

People have gone off on all kinds of tacks to try and excuse this act (not pointing out any person). That to me is far more hypocritical than this law ever could be.

 

[5Stars]

It's a universally accepted fact that livestock are domesticated animals. I don't know what farm you were on but if you opened the gate at ours, the cows would stand there and wait for instruction!

Of course if you took down the fences permanatly the cattle would regress back into a feral state......just like pigs and cats and dogs do.

The fact remains that we as humans captured, domesticated, and bred livestock to murder them for food.

I don't see how comparing cattle to dogs is a stretch at all. They are both living, breathing mammals.....and if you've been around livestock you know that they recognize and appreciate human contact.

So, how many cow fights have you been too? Any horse fighting?

Is it against the law to eat a cow? You said you grew up on a farm. Did you get indicted for eating cow meat?