North vs South Senior Bowl Game Thread

[Kevinicus]

Brandon Flowers
http://www.nfl.com/players/mikejenkins/profile?id=JEN421854

2009 - 65 Tackles, 23 PDef, 2 FF, 5 INT
2008 - 69 Tackles, 13 PDef, 1 FF, 2 INT

Mike Jenkins
http://www.nfl.com/players/mikejenkins/profile?id=JEN421854

2009 - 49 Tackles, 19 PDef, 0 FF, 5 INT
2008 - 19 Tackles, 4 PDef, 0 FF, 1 INT

Yep, you're absolutely right.. he sure is light years ahead of Brandon Flowers.

I made the point that we could have gotten a similar player, who didn't benefit from as good of a defense, without having to give up any additional picks to obtain.

And using the Pro Bowl argument? Ha! Give me a break.. Newman was called into the Pro Bowl before Jenkins and anyone with half a brain knows that's a crock of crap. We hear a lot about Jenkins because he plays for the Cowboys and they get a lot more exposure than the Chiefs does. Now I'm not knocking on Jenkins, I'm happy we got him, but again we could have gotten an incredibly good corner who doesn't get a lot of face time based upon where he plays without having to give up anything to get him.

Stats?? You're seriously pulling out those stats to compare corners? Really???

 

[HoosierCowboy]

Speaking of what Adam said, I remember Parcells said he didn't like to draft offensive linemen from small schools because too often they dominated on physical talent and the O-line coach spent all his time teaching the less-talented kids.

I mean, the guy did play at Idaho. He probably never had to worry about his technique ever. Probably never played against anyone as good as Williams, either. This is why the scouts pay more attention to the practices than the games, to see if guys like him can take coaching and improve or not.

OL from: Larry Allen

 

[dbair1967]

Felix Jones has been a good play for us, fragile, but good.

It's a shame though to think of us picking him when Chris Johnson went two picks later and is an absolute beast that can do everything Felix does but better.

Here's hoping that Felix can shake the injury bug, get some better conditioning, and maybe produce similar to what Johnson can do.

Mike Jenkins has been great too (and our best corner currently), but its hard to justify trading up for him when we had a similar player in Brandon Flowers that was sitting there at our spot, has been every bit as productive, and wouldn't have cost us any additional picks to get him.

If we had drafted Johnson, he'd be splitting carries here, so people need to keep that in mind (even though people like yourself never do). If Jones had gone to Tennessee though, he would have quickly been the #1 guy there and who knows what his numbers would look like.

As for your comment on Flowers/Jenkins, Flowers gets beat quite a bit. Jenkins does not. Jenkins has alot more speed than Flowers has and has alot more upside. Jenkins is alsready getting talk when it coems to the league's best CB's, Flowers isnt even an afterthought in those discussions.

 

[Randy White]

Why are so many down on Kosier? (btw its spelled KOSIER) He missed an entire season with an injury and played good this year. He had some bad games too but which OL on our team didn't?

Are you serious ? Played " good " this year ? He was, by far, THE weakest link in the O-line, getting man handled, when he wasn't committing a stupid penalty.

And " thanks " for the spelling lesson.

I have a problem with wasting a first rounder on a OG that will NEED time to develop. I don't think he will even challenge Kosier. He's bigger than Kosier but that doesn't mean he will beat him out on that feat alone. Our first round pick needs to be for someone that will make an impact immediately otherwise if we draft a guy so we can groom then it's a huge waste.

Oh there are so many targets in that post that are erroneous, I don't know where to begin with.

Let's start with the obvious:

Our first round pick needs to be for someone that will make an impact immediately otherwise if we draft a guy so we can groom then it's a huge waste

Going by your statement, this guys are a huge waste then. Tell me, what impact did either of them made right away ? And if we didn't " groom them ", then what exactly did we do to turn them into the players that they are today ?


Next:

I have a problem with wasting a first rounder on a OG that will NEED time to develop. I don't think he will even challenge Kosier. He's bigger than Kosier but that doesn't mean he will beat him out on that feat alone.

ALL players drafted in this year's draft " need time to develop ". ALL players drafted in last year's draft " need time to develop ". ALL players drafted in the year before last year's draft " need time to develop ". There is no such thing as a " developed " player coming out of college. The difference is that SOME players need more time than others to get to a level where they're contributing either up to the level of their talents and/or enough to justify playing them.

KoSier is nowhere near as talented as Iupati is. Never has been, never will be. Like I said, if we're fortunate enough to draft Iupati and he doesn't beat out KoSier for the starting spot ( injuries aside ) in training camp, I'd be disappointed.

 

[CATCH17]

Randy White your thought on Kosier are pretty far off from reality.


Your talking about the guy as if he is some scrub out there and he is not.

He brings some things to the table that our other linemen do not because of his natural skill set.

 

[Randy White]

I know I am late to the party, but I TIVOed the game and just finished watching it.

For all the hype he got, Iupati freaking sucked today. Not only did the guy get pushed backwards into his own backfield multiple times, he holds on almost every freaking play..

The beauty about films is that you can alway go back and see what REALLY happened and not what you " think " happened.


[youtube]vklfr37r8dI[/youtube]

This are just the highlights, so there's a very limited number of plays here, but it's enough to show an example of how people are able to look but do not observe.

at:

:57 seconds - Iupati doubles on the NG on a pass play. Takes the man out of the play.

1:09: Scoring TD. Iupati doubles on the NG, gets to the next level and blocks the LB. Despite somebody in here saying he was " holding ", nowhere in the play does it show him holding anybody. What it did show is that if he wouldn't have made the block, that LB, at the very least, would have made it harder for Blount to score, if not stopped him.

2:00: Interception. Pass play, completely ENGULFS the DT, drives him past the QB, opening up not only a huge passing lane for the QB to step up, but a running hole IF the QB had chosen to scramble ( which he should have, instead of throwing into double coverage ).

3:16: Doubles down on a NG on a pass play.

3:30: The 4th and goal play. Some people in here criticized him for getting " driven back " which shows complete ignorance. First, it was a pass play. Second: it was a pass play that calls for the QB to roll out to their right which is OPPOSITE of where he's lined up ( LG ). Third: His job on that play is NOT to drive block, but to SHIELD his man and make sure HE doesn't get to the QB from the backside. That's EXACTLY what happened. The D-lineman used his momentum to try to get away from Iupati, but he still couldn't and wasn't even within 10 yards of the play.

3:46: Pass TD. Simple drop back, helped the C with a double for a split second, but wasn't challanged by anybody else.



Those are just a few plays within the game. If I get a chance to get more snaps of his play, I will break them down as well, but so far, there's absolutely NOTHING he's done in the game to devalue his stock.

 

[Eskimo]

Randy White your thought on Kosier are pretty far off from reality.


Your talking about the guy as if he is some scrub out there and he is not.

He brings some things to the table that our other linemen do not because of his natural skill set.

That's right - Kosier is not a mauler. But he can use quickness and technique to wall guys off. He is usually a good pass blocker because of his feet and lateral quickness. He is great at pulling and leading RBs through the hole. He is our only OL (other than Free) that can actually thrown a block on a screen consistently (Gurode can do it but misses a fair bit, Davis almost always misses, Flo and Colombo can't run).

Kosier did have some trouble with monster DTs like K. Williams and A. Haynesworth but so do most people.

I do think he is wearing down and we need to look to upgrade in the draft but there isn't quite the urgency for a starter here as there is at OT with Flo and Colombo breaking down.

 

[Randy White]

Randy White your thought on Kosier are pretty far off from reality. Your talking about the guy as if he is some scrub out there and he is not. He brings some things to the table that our other linemen do not because of his natural skill set.

He's not a " scrub " just as much as you're over valuing him. Although he IS the weakest link in the O-line, he's a servicible player. He'd make a terrific back up who can step up, on a limited basis, in case of an emergency. However, his penchant for making penalties on key drives during games, or giving up a sack for being man handled by bigger D-linemen, doesn't make him a starter anymore. He was a good addition when the O-line was going through it's transition and has contributed to the team quite a bit, but his days as a starter are over.

 

[Eskimo]

He's not a " scrub " just as much as you're over valuing him. Although he IS the weakest link in the O-line, he's a servicible player. He'd make a terrific back up who can step up, on a limited basis, in case of an emergency. However, his penchant for making penalties on key drives during games, or giving up a sack for being man handled by bigger D-linemen, doesn't make him a starter anymore. He was a good addition when the O-line was going through it's transition and has contributed to the team quite a bit, but his days as a starter are over.

I think he gave up 1 sack all year during the regular season - you're just biased against him. The K. Williams sack was on Kosier there but it was kind of a trick play where Williams faked dropping back in coverage and then rushed and sacked Romo while Kosier was blocking air.

Out of all our OL, he is the most consistent pass blocker.

 

[Cowboy Brian]

Zac Robinson really impressed me with that drive.

 

[CATCH17]

He's not a " scrub " just as much as you're over valuing him. Although he IS the weakest link in the O-line, he's a servicible player. He'd make a terrific back up who can step up, on a limited basis, in case of an emergency. However, his penchant for making penalties on key drives during games, or giving up a sack for being man handled by bigger D-linemen, doesn't make him a starter anymore. He was a good addition when the O-line was going through it's transition and has contributed to the team quite a bit, but his days as a starter are over.

I don't over value Kosier at all. I just don't think he is some joe schmoe that a rookie will just come in and beat out because of having more talent.

I also don't think his penalties or mistakes are as damning as you make them out to be either.

Im all for an upgrade but if he starts than we are still more than fine.

And if we draft someone and they don't start over Kosier from day 1 then you shouldn't go yelling that the guy is a bust because he can't beat out Kosier.

 

[Bluestang]

The beauty about films is that you can alway go back and see what REALLY happened and not what you " think " happened.


[youtube]vklfr37r8dI[/youtube]

This are just the highlights, so there's a very limited number of plays here, but it's enough to show an example of how people are able to look but do not observe.

at:

:57 seconds - Iupati doubles on the NG on a pass play. Takes the man out of the play.

1:09: Scoring TD. Iupati doubles on the NG, gets to the next level and blocks the LB. Despite somebody in here saying he was " holding ", nowhere in the play does it show him holding anybody. What it did show is that if he wouldn't have made the block, that LB, at the very least, would have made it harder for Blount to score, if not stopped him.

2:00: Interception. Pass play, completely ENGULFS the DT, drives him past the QB, opening up not only a huge passing lane for the QB to step up, but a running hole IF the QB had chosen to scramble ( which he should have, instead of throwing into double coverage ).

3:16: Doubles down on a NG on a pass play.

3:30: The 4th and goal play. Some people in here criticized him for getting " driven back " which shows complete ignorance. First, it was a pass play. Second: it was a pass play that calls for the QB to roll out to their right which is OPPOSITE of where he's lined up ( LG ). Third: His job on that play is NOT to drive block, but to SHIELD his man and make sure HE doesn't get to the QB from the backside. That's EXACTLY what happened. The D-lineman used his momentum to try to get away from Iupati, but he still couldn't and wasn't even within 10 yards of the play.

3:46: Pass TD. Simple drop back, helped the C with a double for a split second, but wasn't challanged by anybody else.



Those are just a few plays within the game. If I get a chance to get more snaps of his play, I will break them down as well, but so far, there's absolutely NOTHING he's done in the game to devalue his stock.

at the 2:00 his back is turned toward the LOS and he's holding the guy. It didn't get called but you can clearly see he lost position to the defender and has to hold him back from getting to the QB. If you can't see that then I'm sorry.

 

[Cover 2]

Brandon Flowers
http://www.nfl.com/players/mikejenkins/profile?id=JEN421854

2009 - 65 Tackles, 23 PDef, 2 FF, 5 INT
2008 - 69 Tackles, 13 PDef, 1 FF, 2 INT

Mike Jenkins
http://www.nfl.com/players/mikejenkins/profile?id=JEN421854

2009 - 49 Tackles, 19 PDef, 0 FF, 5 INT
2008 - 19 Tackles, 4 PDef, 0 FF, 1 INT

Yep, you're absolutely right.. he sure is light years ahead of Brandon Flowers.

I made the point that we could have gotten a similar player, who didn't benefit from as good of a defense, without having to give up any additional picks to obtain.

And using the Pro Bowl argument? Ha! Give me a break.. Newman was called into the Pro Bowl before Jenkins and anyone with half a brain knows that's a crock of crap. We hear a lot about Jenkins because he plays for the Cowboys and they get a lot more exposure than the Chiefs does. Now I'm not knocking on Jenkins, I'm happy we got him, but again we could have gotten an incredibly good corner who doesn't get a lot of face time based upon where he plays without having to give up anything to get him.

LOL, did you just use PD's and INT's to try to prove that two corners are similar? Try percentage of passes given up and targets.

 

[DFWJC]

Anybody?

Not a senior

 

[Manwiththeplan]

The current staff has developed perhaps ONE starter in Free. Not exactly great either.

How many o-linemen has the current staff failed to develop? Al Johnson, Jacob Rogers and Stephen Petermen were Parcells and Sparano failures. Since Wade, Garrett and Houck got to town we've invested draft picks on Doug Free (4th round), Pat McQuistan (7th round) and James Marten (3rd round).

One guy is really right where you would hope considering we have 2 quality tackles on the roster. On guy has stuck around for 4 years or so, but doesn't look like he'll amount to much, but we only used a 7th on him. The last guy was a bust, but was still not considered a guy with elite talent.

 

[DFWJC]

Brandon Flowers
http://www.nfl.com/players/mikejenkins/profile?id=JEN421854

2009 - 65 Tackles, 23 PDef, 2 FF, 5 INT
2008 - 69 Tackles, 13 PDef, 1 FF, 2 INT

Mike Jenkins
http://www.nfl.com/players/mikejenkins/profile?id=JEN421854

2009 - 49 Tackles, 19 PDef, 0 FF, 5 INT
2008 - 19 Tackles, 4 PDef, 0 FF, 1 INT

Yep, you're absolutely right.. he sure is light years ahead of Brandon Flowers.


.

Ouch.
I think some forget there are other players on the planet outside of the DFW area.
I prefer our guy over Flowers, but Flowers has been good too.

 

[jobberone]

Kosier is better than a little and less than a lot. His position is the most likely to be upgraded next year although I suspect anyone we add including Brewster will be a backup in 2010.

 

[DeaconBlues]

The beauty about films is that you can alway go back and see what you want to believe happened and not what you " think " happened.

Fixed that for you.

:57 seconds - Iupati doubles on the NG on a pass play. Takes the man out of the play.

I certainly hope on a double team, the man is blocked. That's minimum expectations.

1:09: Scoring TD. Iupati doubles on the NG, gets to the next level and blocks the LB. Despite somebody in here saying he was " holding ", nowhere in the play does it show him holding anybody. What it did show is that if he wouldn't have made the block, that LB, at the very least, would have made it harder for Blount to score, if not stopped him.

You're blind. It's 50-50 on the first block, but definitely holding on the second.

2:00: Interception. Pass play, completely ENGULFS the DT, drives him past the QB, opening up not only a huge passing lane for the QB to step up, but a running hole IF the QB had chosen to scramble ( which he should have, instead of throwing into double coverage ).

If by engulfs, you mean "grabs the DT by the arm and shoulder and pulls downward," then you are correct.

3:16: Doubles down on a NG on a pass play.

As stated before, I certainly hope on a double team, the man is blocked.

3:30: The 4th and goal play. Some people in here criticized him for getting " driven back " which shows complete ignorance. First, it was a pass play. Second: it was a pass play that calls for the QB to roll out to their right which is OPPOSITE of where he's lined up ( LG ). Third: His job on that play is NOT to drive block, but to SHIELD his man and make sure HE doesn't get to the QB from the backside. That's EXACTLY what happened. The D-lineman used his momentum to try to get away from Iupati, but he still couldn't and wasn't even within 10 yards of the play.

First, that was not the play I criticized him on - different goal line play which was a run - but let's look at his pass blocking. He clearly holds the DL by the arm and elbow. The reason why he wasn't within 10 yards was the play was run to the opposite side.

3:46: Pass TD. Simple drop back, helped the C with a double for a split second, but wasn't challanged by anybody else.

You're actually including a play he didn't have anyone to block, as proof. Seriously? Seriously??

So, to recap, two plays he succeed in a double team, three holds and one where there wasn't anyone to block. And this doesn't include the TD pass brought back by his hold, or the goal line run where he was blown backwards by a much smaller DL.

His talent is all on paper and in practice. His talent during games leaves much to be desired. He is a project, period.