Office Debate I had (stud DE or stud RB)

[Stautner]

I have seen too many times a DE go up against a good to great OT and get shut down.

Think about Erik Williams shutting Reggie White completely down by himself. Granted Erik was indeed great at the team he was doing that.

One player can single handedly take a great DE and completely shut him down. One player can not shut down a great RB. It simply does not happen.

A great RB can even impact your defense by grinding out 1st down after 1st down and keeping your defense fresh.

A great RB can provide protection to your QB like Emmitt did for Aikman. How many times did Emmitt save Troy from being leveled?

A great RB can open up things for your WRs due to eight men in the box.

A great RB can be a big time receiving threat.

Now I understand a great DE can do way more than just rush the passer, but ultimately a great RB will give the other team more to worry about.

I would be willing to bet that great RB's all get shut down more often than Reggie White ever did.

 

[gbrittain]

I would be willing to bet that great RB's all get shut down more often than Reggie White ever did.

I bet not! You can be wrong if you want to.

 

[tunahelper]

Office Debate I had (stud DE or stud RB)
I am sure there are enough studs around for all you boys!

 

[Cochese]

Office Debate I had (stud DE or stud RB)
I am sure there are enough studs around for all you boys!

LMAO!

Classic comment.

 

[Stautner]

I bet not! You can be wrong if you want to.

Perhaps ALL is too strong, but if you have ever played fanstasy football you will realize that most running backs get shut down from time to time - even the best ones.

The thing that makes the comparison difficult is that you can't compare statistics. The impact of Reggie White isn't found in sacks and tackles alone, but also in the attention he draws away from his teammates so they can make plays and the way teams have to game plan for him.

The only other defensive player I recall having that kind of constant impact was Lawrence Taylor.

 

[gbrittain]

Perhaps ALL is too strong, but if you have ever played fanstasy football you will realize that most running backs get shut down from time to time - even the best ones.

The thing that makes the comparison difficult is that you can't compare statistics. The impact of Reggie White isn't found in sacks and tackles alone, but also in the attention he draws away from his teammates so they can make plays and the way teams have to game plan for him.

The only other defensive player I recall having that kind of constant impact was Lawrence Taylor.

To be honest with you I suspect there is not a wrong answer to this question. It probably is a matter of philosophy even among NFL GMs.

 

[Stautner]

To be honest with you I suspect there is not a wrong answer to this question. It probably is a matter of philosophy even among NFL GMs.

That really is true. It all depends on a team's particular styles of play on both sides of the ball and how they value certain skills.

Realistically though, we are talking about a valueable RB vs. Reggie White. The RB could be Barry Sanders, Emmitt, Earl Campbell, OJ, Shaun Alexander or a number of people, but the only DE we have been rating with them is White. Accordingly, at least on the surface it would appear that the chances of getting a RB that is a high impact enough player to warrent the first draft pick is greater than getting a DE of that calibre.

 

[gbrittain]

That really is true. It all depends on a team's particular styles of play on both sides of the ball and how they value certain skills.

Realistically though, we are talking about a valueable RB vs. Reggie White. The RB could be Barry Sanders, Emmitt, Earl Campbell, OJ, Shaun Alexander or a number of people, but the only DE we have been rating with them is White. Accordingly, at least on the surface it would appear that the chances of getting a RB that is a high impact enough player to warrent the first draft pick is greater than getting a DE of that calibre.

Very good point. I was going to intimate something along the same lines, but do not need to now as you said it very well. I very much agree.

 

[joseephuss]

I saw Reggie White get dominated several times one on one by both Erik Williams. That Thanksgiving game highlight of the one play White throws Allen around and then sacks Jason Garrett was the only play Reggie made in that game. The rest of the time, the small college, rookie Larry dominated Reggie and Garrett had all day long to throw and accumulate over 300 yards.

 

[Stautner]

I saw Reggie White get dominated several times one on one by both Erik Williams. That Thanksgiving game highlight of the one play White throws Allen around and then sacks Jason Garrett was the only play Reggie made in that game. The rest of the time, the small college, rookie Larry dominated Reggie and Garrett had all day long to throw and accumulate over 300 yards.

One game or one opponent does not a career make.

Judging Reggie White's career by a few games against Erik Williams is like picking a few games where Emmitt was held in check and saying he wasn't that good.

Erik Williams did do a very good job on White - no doubt - although the hands to the face method Williams used would be illegal now. That doesn't change in the least that White was the most dominant D-linemen ever to play the game and that few opponents ever had much success stopping him.

 

[joseephuss]

One game or one opponent does not a career make.

Judging Reggie White's career by a few games against Erik Williams is like picking a few games where Emmitt was held in check and saying he wasn't that good.

Erik Williams did do a very good job on White - no doubt - although the hands to the face method Williams used would be illegal now. That doesn't change in the least that White was the most dominant D-linemen ever to play the game and that few opponents ever had much success stopping him.

There is no question that he was dominant, but he was held in check many times in his career. Just like any great back, great defensive ends can be dealt with and sometimes it doesn't take full out schemes. Dallas used to attempt it with just one on one blocking. It takes a whole defense to shut down a running back. They don't just tell one guy that it is his responsibility alone to stop the running back.

 

[Stautner]

There is no question that he was dominant, but he was held in check many times in his career. Just like any great back, great defensive ends can be dealt with and sometimes it doesn't take full out schemes. Dallas used to attempt it with just one on one blocking. It takes a whole defense to shut down a running back. They don't just tell one guy that it is his responsibility alone to stop the running back.

Yes, and it takes a CB, Safety and a D-line rushing the QB to stop a WR ...... does that mean WR's are necessarily better picks than DE's ....... ?

There is more to this picture than that - that's just the nature of offenses and defenses - you've oversimplified things.

 

[joseephuss]

Yes, and it takes a CB, Safety and a D-line rushing the QB to stop a WR ...... does that mean WR's are necessarily better picks than DE's ....... ?

There is more to this picture than that - that's just the nature of offenses and defenses - you've oversimplified things.

Depends on what we are talking about. There are different levels to the debate in this thread. It is the all time great DE(Reggie White or whomever) vs. all time great RB(Walter Payton or whomever). How about all time great DE vs. all time great WR(Jerry Rice or whomever). I think a case can easily be made to take Jerry Rice. That is who I would choose.

Now if we are just talking about DE vs. WR in general. I take DE.

DE vs. RB in general. Too even for me to decide on general terms. I have to look at the particulars.

I wouldn't choose Mario Williams over Reggie Bush. Of course I don't think either is going to be super in the NFL. Nor do I think they will be busts. They will contribute to teams, but I just don't see either as building blocks.

 

[kartr]

You mentioned that it is difficult to predict who will be thenext great pass rusher, but easy to find a quality running back. Based those assumptions, then it made more sense for the Texans to choose Bush. He more easily projects to be a quality back over trying to figure out if Williams will be that great pass rusher. White over Payton is acceptable because hindsight lets us know that Reggie was a great DE.

bush didn't carry the full load at USC, remember, Lendale White. Bush didn't hurt Texas, Lendale White did, Bush hurt Fresno State. There are no Fresno States in the NFL He's a utility player, like Brian Westbrook, they can't carry the load by themselves and the Texans already had a similar player in Dominic Davis. Lendale White would have made more sense for the Texans than Bush.

 

[kartr]

I take it you're in the East, or probably Southeast.

FYI: Fresno State is in the WAC and they're not too bad. If you can't watch Reggie Bush's highlights and see his exceptional talent, then ....

Sorry Charley (Casserly).

Yes, I'm in the Southwest and I think Bush is a fabulous player, college player that is. I think he'll be a decent pro, but no more so than Brian Westbrook and I don't think you draft that type of player with the first pick.

 

[kartr]

This discussion really revolves around the question of each player's value. Is Bush a once in a life time player? Will Williams become another Reggie White?

If I had the chance to take Emmitt or Reggie White, I'd take White and never look back. If Bush is another Faulk and Williams is another Reggie White, I'd take Williams. On the other hand, Williams might be another Courtny Brown. You don't know what either is going to be yet. They've played two games and as of now, you don't know what either is going to be.

I couldn't agree more, but since the Texans needed a pass rusher more, I believe they made the right decision. Even if Bush turns out to be the next Marshall Faulk, you don't take Marshall, whom I love as a player, with the first pick, when you have so many other needs. Heck, the Texans are not even sure about David Carr yet. Maybe they should have taken Vince Young or Leinart or Cutler with the first pick. But to take a fabulous specialty player, who might spend as much time on IR as the playing field, it wouldn't be prudent.

 

[Concord]

Take the RB every day over the DE.

And Bush is a potential franchise RB...Williams is no potential franchise DE...Never was never will be.

Texas got stupid with the contract thing and went with Williams when they really wanted Bush. Dumb move. Just thank my lucky stars it wasn't the Cowboys messing up like that.

 

[kartr]

I agree. I think all position on a team are of great value but I have seen too many great backs come in and turn franchises around. I'm not going to sit here and say DE are not important but I'll take the great RB over the DE any day of the week.

The Eagles don't have a franchise rb, nor did 9'ers or Pats when they won there first superbowls, but they did have top notch defensive lines, especially pass rushers.Who was the Steelers franchise backs last year when they beat the 'Hawks, who did have a franchise back.

 

[Hostile]

Yes, I'm in the Southwest and I think Bush is a fabulous player, college player that is. I think he'll be a decent pro, but no more so than Brian Westbrook and I don't think you draft that type of player with the first pick.

He's already more respected and dangerous than Westbrook has ever been.

 

[joseephuss]

bush didn't carry the full load at USC, remember, Lendale White. Bush didn't hurt Texas, Lendale White did, Bush hurt Fresno State. There are no Fresno States in the NFL He's a utility player, like Brian Westbrook, they can't carry the load by themselves and the Texans already had a similar player in Dominic Davis. Lendale White would have made more sense for the Texans than Bush.

That is why I think their best move was to trade down. Maybe they tried and could not get it done. I think they should have tried harder. They could have gained some picks and then took someone like Marcus McNeil in the 2nd round plus other guys that might help their offensive line. White would have been a horrible pick in the 1st round especially early. If they were able to trade down, then he would have been good in the early 2nd for them.