Office Debate I had (stud DE or stud RB)

[Maikeru-sama]

If you are talking superstars, a guy like Payton or Emmitt or any franchise QB, or even Jerry Rice, is worth more than any top DL...period. It's not even up for discussion. A guy like Reggie White or Charles Haley, who puts pressure on QB's and makes sacks is the guy who gets you over the final hurdle of being a champion...but they can't make it happen. Guys like Aikman and Emmitt are worth far more than any DE.

We are not talking about QBs vs DE, we are talking about RBs vs DEs.

And I am not talking about Superstars. Im talking about the Greatest DE vs the Greatest RB and which brings more value to the table.

There are good arguments for one or the other.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

It still depends on what the team does at other positions and other drafts. They still have to develop talent elsewhere to get the most out of the team.

You used the wrong White in your comparison to Walter Payton. There is a better more realistic comparison.

Dallas drafted Randy White #2 overall while Chicago Drafted Payton #4 overall in the 1975 draft. Can anyone say that Dallas regretted drafting White over Payton? You can't really compare the two gys head to head because it is different positions. Both were great in the whole scheme of things. They both are in the HOF. Both impacted their teams. Dallas just did a better job of getting talent at other positions. White played in three Superbowls, winning 1 and shared the SB MVP. Payton played and won 1 Superbowl.

Just how different would Dallas be if they drafted Payton. I think he would have been dynamic in Landry's offense, but how would they replace Randy White. The Cowboys got their dynamic runner in 1977 by trading up in the draft to get Tony Dorsett. If they already had Payton, who could they trade up for to get a dominating defensive tackle? I looked at the first two rounds of that 1977 draft and there was no one close to Randy White.

One single move does not make a football team. Of course, Houston has made series of poor moves, so this one just comes across looking worse.

Understandable, but due to brevity and so many moving parts, it is a debate where everything else is equal. Just think of it as you have a new Franchise...say in L.A., you have no players and just for ease of discussion you absolutely know that the RB is going to be similar to Walter Payton or whatever RB you think is the greatest RB you ever saw and the DE is going to be similiar to Reggie White or whoever you think is the greatest DE you ever say.

 

[Doomsday101]

I have seen more teams go from bottom to the top because of a super star RB than from getting a DE. RB help put points on the board and the great ones can take over a game and wear defenses down.

 

[Hostile]

I think it isn't as cut and dried as DE vs. RB though Mick. The Texans also needed to get the fans excited again.

Reggie Bush was the most exciting player in the Draft. IMO they blew it and not because Dominick Davis got hurt. They had 2 better options to them than Mario Williams.

1. Draft Bush.

2. Trade down and stockpile picks.

Any time you pass on the player everyone has as the consensus overall #1 the player you take instead can't miss. In other words, he better be just as dynamic and in this case, a DE just isn't.

 

[AbeBeta]

In theory a stud DE is far harder to find. However, it seems a lot easier to project what an RB is going to do. Teams clearly value DEs more in free agency because now we are talking about guys who have established themselves. RBs, even really good ones, often don't get much play on the free agent market.

That said, you have to look at the two guys we are talking about Bush stikes me as a once in a decade talent. Maybe not a 20 carry back but an absolute gamebreaker. Williams came out as as very good DE but was he didn't seem like that once in a generation type player that Bush could be.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I have seen more teams go from bottom to the top because of a super star RB than from getting a DE. RB help put points on the board and the great ones can take over a game and wear defenses down.

You should reword that as, I have seen more teams go from bottom to the top because of a super star offensive line than from getting a DE.

The only running back I can ever remember that didn't require a great offensive line was Barry Sanders and even he had a good offensive line.

 

[Glenn Carano]

I'd take the DE over the RB. RB's careers are shorter and if you look around the NFL there are plenty of good RB's around. I'd rather have the great DE who gets 15+ sacks and an average back who gets 1000 yards than a great RB who gets 1600 yards and a DE who gets 5 sacks.

 

[Doomsday101]

You should reword that as, I have seen more teams go from bottom to the top because of a super star offensive line than from getting a DE.

The only running back I can ever remember that didn't require a great offensive line was Barry Sanders and even he had a good offensive line.

The line Emmitt ran behind almost got Aikman killed and sacked 11 times in 1 game. Our line was good but Emmitt had a hell of a lot to do with the preception of Dallas line being great. No other back behind the same line could do anything when Emmitt was hurt. Oilers with Campbell went from a laughing stock in the NFL to a team competing for a championship in the AFC. So I don't think I need to reword what I'm saying great backs help lineman out big time. As Smith would say just put a body on the defender and I'll work off of that.

 

[gbrittain]

Without question I go with the RB. I would not even want to imagine the 90s Cowboys with Reggie White or Bruce Smith instead of Emmitt Smith.

 

[chicago JK]

I would take a stud DE over a stud running back if all things were equal. Although I think the Texans really made a bad pick passing on Bush. Bush is more than a running back. Wherever he goes in the field, defenses watch him. He can do so many things on the field. Who knows how his body holds up but I know I am glad Reggie didn't wind up in Houston. Williams is in no way a bust but I have doubts if he ever dominates a game as was expected.

 

[joseephuss]

Understandable, but due to brevity and so many moving parts, it is a debate where everything else is equal. Just think of it as you have a new Franchise...say in L.A., you have no players and just for ease of discussion you absolutely know that the RB is going to be similar to Walter Payton or whatever RB you think is the greatest RB you ever saw and the DE is going to be similiar to Reggie White or whoever you think is the greatest DE you ever say.

I don't think you can go wrong with either. Cop out answer? Maybe.

If I have to choose, I go with running back. I looked at the all time top rushers and many of them played on teams that made it deep in the playoffs or the Superbowl. There were 11 of the top 20 rushers that were on SB winning teams. That does not include Jim Brown who played prior to the SB. There were 9 of the top 20 sack leaders that played on SB wining teams.

 

[Stautner]

The problem is not having hindsight. If I KNEW I was getting the equivalent of Reggie White I would take him in a heartbeat over Walter Payton or Reggie Bush or pretty much anyone else I could think of.

But the draft isn't a certainty, so you have to take your chances.

Neverthless, even if the Texans thought Williams legitimately could be a Reggie White type player, they still likely could have traded down a little and got Williams and something additional - even if only an additional 2nd round pick.

 

[Marktui]

Qb, Rb, LT and DE are the cornerstones of championship team. If you have those pieces your team will be good. But, finding a franchise running back (emmitt, walter, ladanian, shaun) is much harder to find and do not come around very often. So this debate I would have to say leans toward the RB over the DE. Bush can energize an offense, score points and make others around him better. Just like LaDanian does in SD.

Not to take anything away from Mario, but he is going to take time to develop and I think that he is not going to energize the Texans the same way Bush will energize the Saints. You can see it already, Bush can touch the ball on one play and go the distance. Mario is being handled by better left tackles than he is used to playing in NC State. Not to say that he will not get better, Bruce Smith came out of Virginia and was the 1 overall like Mario, but it took him about 3-4 years before he was a dominant player.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I had an interesting office debate with some other Cowboy fans the other day, and it had to do with surprise surprise, Mario Williams and Reggie Bush. My opinion was I had no problem with what the Texans did and another guy said they made a huge mistake.

Anyway, the real debate came when we talked about what position was more valuable, RB or DE. We chose a player that we felt was probably the best at his position all time for RB and DE. We just said Walter Payton and Reggie White are sitting there in the Draft. Dont get too caught up in the names above, if you want just substitute someone who you think is the greatest RB and the greatest DE and figure who you would pick.

I said I would go with Reggie White over Walter Payton. No disrespect to Mr. Payton, but I just value one of the Greatest DEs over one of the Greatest RBs ever. I would rather build my defense up and then work on my offense (of course I would get a QB first but after that mostly defense)

Thoughs?

DE is way more valuable than a RB, esp. nowadays, or I should say, a much harder commodity to fill, all-time? I don't really know

 

[kartr]

I had an interesting office debate with some other Cowboy fans the other day, and it had to do with surprise surprise, Mario Williams and Reggie Bush. My opinion was I had no problem with what the Texans did and another guy said they made a huge mistake.

Anyway, the real debate came when we talked about what position was more valuable, RB or DE. We chose a player that we felt was probably the best at his position all time for RB and DE. We just said Walter Payton and Reggie White are sitting there in the Draft. Dont get too caught up in the names above, if you want just substitute someone who you think is the greatest RB and the greatest DE and figure who you would pick.

I said I would go with Reggie White over Walter Payton. No disrespect to Mr. Payton, but I just value one of the Greatest DEs over one of the Greatest RBs ever. I would rather build my defense up and then work on my offense (of course I would get a QB first but after that mostly defense)

Thoughs?

I agree, the Texans made the right decision. I like Bush, but he wouldn't make them special. Even if he is the next Gayle Sayers or Marshall Faulk, both of those players suffered a lot with injuries. I agree with Reggie White over Payton because it's relatively easy to find a quality running back and extremely difficult to predict who will be the next great pass rusher, see Michael Strahan of Texas Southern U or Osi Umenyiora(sp). Those guys are great now, but who knew that they would become great players. As to what position should you pick, it depends on what you already have, and yes, I too, would start with defense. As for qb's, develop a good system first with a good supporting cast then find a qb that can play in that system.

 

[kartr]

If the two players were of equal talent, I would pick the DE.

But, IMO, Reggie Bush is at a different level than Mario Williams. A game-breaker like Bush doesn't come around very often and I think Houston blew it.

It's too early to write off Williams and I don't think Bush is any better than Julius Jones, who is bigger and faster and still has injury questions. Putting up big numbers against the likes of Fresno State and the rest of those weak Pac 10 defenses is not a good litmus test for greatness. I like Bush, but he's way over-hyped. How did he do against a mediocre defense like Texas in the Rose Bowl?

 

[joseephuss]

I agree, the Texans made the right decision. I like Bush, but he wouldn't make them special. Even if he is the next Gayle Sayers or Marshall Faulk, both of those players suffered a lot with injuries. I agree with Reggie White over Payton because it's relatively easy to find a quality running back and extremely difficult to predict who will be the next great pass rusher, see Michael Strahan of Texas Southern U or Osi Umenyiora(sp). Those guys are great now, but who knew that they would become great players. As to what position should you pick, it depends on what you already have, and yes, I too, would start with defense. As for qb's, develop a good system first with a good supporting cast then find a qb that can play in that system.

You mentioned that it is difficult to predict who will be thenext great pass rusher, but easy to find a quality running back. Based those assumptions, then it made more sense for the Texans to choose Bush. He more easily projects to be a quality back over trying to figure out if Williams will be that great pass rusher. White over Payton is acceptable because hindsight lets us know that Reggie was a great DE.

 

[kartr]

But a player like Bush can be involved in every offensive play. He can lineup at wr or rb and pr.

But a Rb needs an offensive line to block and a full back too, plus a good qb to get him the ball. A quality DE just needs to beat his man to have impact, even if he doesn't get to the qb, he can disrupt his timing with pressure. The rb also needs to learn to block lbs and DE who are much bigger than him. Think about it this way. Bush is too small to block Dwight freeney and Freeney is just as fast as he is, and the same with Julius Peppers.

 

[Chief]

It's too early to write off Williams and I don't think Bush is any better than Julius Jones, who is bigger and faster and still has injury questions. Putting up big numbers against the likes of Fresno State and the rest of those weak Pac 10 defenses is not a good litmus test for greatness. I like Bush, but he's way over-hyped. How did he do against a mediocre defense like Texas in the Rose Bowl?

I take it you're in the East, or probably Southeast.

FYI: Fresno State is in the WAC and they're not too bad. If you can't watch Reggie Bush's highlights and see his exceptional talent, then ....

Sorry Charley (Casserly).

 

[kartr]

But that doesn't count for all the pressures he'll get, some of them which would cause turnovers. Not to mention that you'll free up the rest of your d-line to do some damage. Look at R.Mathis in Indy. Double digit sack seasons and he is only in on passing downs. Freeney deserves a lot of the credit for that. A defensive end can really dominate the game by himself.

I'm still in the school of thought that its pretty easy to plug in running backs. Its harder to find a special defensive end.

Well said.