One possible Cowboys offseason mistake

[starfan1]

The roster is loaded as it is. They didn't make a mistake.

Not sure why everyone is so focused on $$$ that isn’t theirs
if Jerry and Steven have proven 1 thing it’s that they won’t spend money even when they got it.

For me I don’t give a crap what these players make
I don’t think Shultz can block a teenager but he can catch this is his last year here if I was a betting man

 

[OmerV]

So your point is I should be happy Schultz wasn’t expecting a $100 million dollar contract? Lol. “Salaries are just high” you are correct -I understand the cap but that’s why you have to be conservative with whom you choose to pay. Paying solid /good players like elite players or very good players is how you get into trouble.


You don’t pay the dalton Schultz’s of the world when you have the diggs, parsons and others up next. We literally have Hendershot and
Ferguson out there and even if those 2 don’t pan out, the tight end position can be fixed via the draft in todays nfl very easily. Let Schultz get paid by someone else.

No, the point was you falsely claimed he was expecting a contract at the market value of the elite TE's.

As for whether the team should pay him, I never claimed they should. This post is you shifting the conversation away from your false claim.

 

[CTcowboy203]

No, the point was you falsely claimed he was expecting a contract at the market value of the elite TE's.

As for whether the team should pay him, I never claimed they should. This post is you shifting the conversation away from your false claim.

I’m not falsely claiming anything. His agent is going to want him to get paid based off his numbers. His numbers indicate that he’s a pro bowl level tight end or very close to that level. If your a pro bowl tight end that puts you into the higher end of salary in the league for the position and close to elite tier in terms of cap hits for the position.

he’s not that. You keep hinging on the word “market value” his agent is going to want to get him paid the market value for an all star caliber tight end. He had 104 catches last year and 8 touchdowns. your comparing his Value to what Dawson knox and David njoku got - neither of them even surpassed 50 catches or 600 yards.

his market value is closer to a salary for an elite level tight end and that’s what his agent will ask. It’s Also why he was tagged because there was a gap between what he wanted and what we think he’s worth. Market value does not mean discount.

he wanted more then njoku who makes 13.5 annually. His market value is reported at or around 60/4….or 15m a season.

“As for what an extension for Schultz would look like, it stands to reason that he’d collect more than David Njoku did from the Cleveland Browns. Njoku is making an average annual value of $13.7 million throughout the life of his four-year, $54.75 million deal. Based on that deal, Schultz could reasonably approach a $60 million deal over the same four-year span.”

from Michael gehlken

highest paid tight ends for 2022 https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/highest-paid-tight-ends-2022-nfl-season
1. George Kittle, 49ers: $15 million
2. Travis Kelce, Chiefs: $14.3 million
3. Dallas Goedert, Eagles: $14.25 million
4. Mark Andrews, Ravens: $14 million
5. David Njoku, Browns: $13.7 million*

15 million per (as reported above) would make him tied for the highest paid tight end in the league…..ie elite level money. Even if he came in slightly over Njoku that puts him around mark Andrews which is top 4 for the position in the league aka “elite level pay”

so no false claims sorry.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I have been of the mindset that franchising Shultz was a mistake. As the season has progressed, I am even more of that mindset.

I know he was Dak’s security blanket, but only because Dak can’t read the field that well. I think this was a case of wasted cap space and a younger player could have adequately filled Schultz’ role.

Franchising him was the correct move. Gave us another year to evaluate him and see what these other young rookies can do before we signed him to a long term deal. As it stands right now I dont see them paying him big money. Although lets see what happens when he gets healthy and Dak is back.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Biggest offseason mistake was not signing Von Miller.

But this mistake is not biting us in keister because DQ has weaponized other players on D with his use of Parsons and having so many variations of his fronts + coverages.

Replacing Amari with 3rd round WR was also foolish.

Time for people to admit they were wrong about the FO and their approach to the off season. Based on what we have seen they pretty much nailed it. I would argue not signing a legitimate backup tackle before TC being the only thing they didnt do properly.

 

[OmerV]

I’m not falsely claiming anything. His agent is going to want him to get paid based off his numbers. His numbers indicate that he’s a pro bowl level tight end or very close to that level. If your a pro bowl tight end that puts you into the higher end of salary in the league for the position and close to elite tier in terms of cap hits for the position.

he’s not that. You keep hinging on the word “market value” his agent is going to want to get him paid the market value for an all star caliber tight end. He had 104 catches last year and 8 touchdowns. your comparing his Value to what Dawson knox and David njoku got - neither of them even surpassed 50 catches or 600 yards.

his market value is closer to a salary for an elite level tight end and that’s what his agent will ask. It’s Also why he was tagged because there was a gap between what he wanted and what we think he’s worth. Market value does not mean discount.

he wanted more then njoku who makes 13.5 annually. His market value is reported at or around 60/4….or 15m a season.

“As for what an extension for Schultz would look like, it stands to reason that he’d collect more than David Njoku did from the Cleveland Browns. Njoku is making an average annual value of $13.7 million throughout the life of his four-year, $54.75 million deal. Based on that deal, Schultz could reasonably approach a $60 million deal over the same four-year span.”

from Michael gehlken

highest paid tight ends for 2022 https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/49ers/highest-paid-tight-ends-2022-nfl-season
1. George Kittle, 49ers: $15 million
2. Travis Kelce, Chiefs: $14.3 million
3. Dallas Goedert, Eagles: $14.25 million
4. Mark Andrews, Ravens: $14 million
5. David Njoku, Browns: $13.7 million*

15 million per (as reported above) would make him tied for the highest paid tight end in the league…..ie elite level money. Even if he came in slightly over Njoku that puts him around mark Andrews which is top 4 for the position in the league aka “elite level pay”

so no false claims sorry.

Yes, off his numbers, which were not at the level of the elite TEs, so by your own standard your comment about him wanting to get paid as an elite TE is false.

As for the numbers you quote, you ignore that Kittle & Kelce signed their contracts 2 years ago. Market value is based on the current market, not what it was 2 years ago. Market rates don't stand still until the elite guys sign their next contract 2-3 years from now. This is why Njoku is even in the neighborhood.

You also ignore the fully guaranteed portion of the contract. With Kittle it's $30 million, but with Njoku it's only $17 million. That's a huge element - at what point can the team walk away without having to pay a large % of the contract. Guys like Njoku and Schultz don't get the guarantees guys like Kittle and Kelce get.

 

[charron]

I get what you are saying but it's not a wasted cap space at all. The other guys have done very little even when schultz wasn't playing. When Dak is back he will unless he suddenly changes how he plays after 6 years, he will go back to throwing the check down a lot. It was smart to keep him for 1 more year while these guys develop, especially with so many other changes to the receiving core including injuries. Its a long season, who's to say other injuries don't pop up. They have so little depth everywhere else on offense lets not complain about the little depth they actually do have.

 

[CTcowboy203]

Yes, off his numbers, which were not at the level of the elite TEs, so by your own standard your comment about him wanting to get paid as an elite TE is false.

As for the numbers you quote, you ignore that Kittle & Kelce signed their contracts 2 years ago. Market value is based on the current market, not what it was 2 years ago. Market rates don't stand still until the elite guys sign their next contract 2-3 years from now. This is why Njoku is even in the neighborhood.

You also ignore the fully guaranteed portion of the contract. With Kittle it's $30 million, but with Njoku it's only $17 million. That's a huge element - at what point can the team walk away without having to pay a large % of the contract. Guys like Njoku and Schultz don't get the guarantees guys like Kittle and Kelce get.

It’s absolutely not false lol. He produced at a level that’s higher than David njoku. That salary is 13.7m annually. That means the negotiations start at 14. If you are being paid top 5 money for your position-you are paid at an elite level. You use njoku as the baseline starting point for negotiations and Schultz numbers are clearly better than his. Kittle and kelce are 15 which is the ceiling. So somewhere in between.

this is football everyone know the guarantees are important figures to look at. The point is Schultz isn’t worth 15m annually even with a lower guaranteed money dollar than guys like kelce and kittle. There’s no contract that makes Schultz at $15m per a season something the cowboys should do…..ever and if it’s a lower annual salary that means the guarantee is HIGHER.

there’s also nothing to suggest that Schultz would ask for LESS than njoku and lots of data /reports to show he’ll ask for MORE. Being paid top position money is in the elite category and he’s not an elite player.

 

[OmerV]

It’s absolutely not false lol. He produced at a level that’s higher than David njoku. That salary is 13.7m annually. That means the negotiations start at 14. If you are being paid top 5 money for your position-you are paid at an elite level. You use njoku as the baseline starting point for negotiations and Schultz numbers are clearly better than his. Kittle and kelce are 15 which is the ceiling. So somewhere in between.

this is football everyone know the guarantees are important figures to look at. The point is Schultz isn’t worth 15m annually even with a lower guaranteed money dollar than guys like kelce and kittle. There’s no contract that makes Schultz at $15m per a season something the cowboys should do…..ever and if it’s a lower annual salary that means the guarantee is HIGHER.

there’s also nothing to suggest that Schultz would ask for LESS than njoku and lots of data /reports to show he’ll ask for MORE. Being paid top position money is in the elite category and he’s not an elite player.

Are you under the impression that producing at a higher level than David Njoku means he produced at the level of Travis Kelce? I already addressed everything you said, but you ignored or didn't understand it. I'll give it one more try ...

Your view has 2 flaws.

1. You're viewing pay as a position ranking rather than a reflection of market conditions at the time a contract is negotiated. When a player negotiates a contract there is no requirement that it slot neatly in line with all past contracts to fit somebody's notion of how players at a certain position should be ranked. NFL salaries go up every year, so the market is different every year. Accordingly, a lesser player make get a contract in today's market close to that of a better player who negotiated his last contract 2 years before.

As an example, if you tried to buy a house today the factor driving the price would not be what someone paid 2 years earlier. The market would be what people are willing to pay now, so someone may have been able to get a much better house 2 years ago for the price it costs for a lesser house today. Or the market could go down and the price could be lower, but the bottom line is market prices don't remain stagnant, and the market for NFL players, and the pay level of NFL salaries, are not going down.

2. You are still ignoring there are other terms that matter, primarily the amount fully guaranteed. Kittle is fully guaranteed to get $30 million even if the 49ers cut him. Njoku is only guaranteed to get $17 million if he gets cut, and that's even with a contract negotiated at today's prices rather than 2 years ago when Kittle signed. You're just being obtuse if you don't think that extra guaranteed $13 million doesn't matter.

 

[CTcowboy203]

Are you under the impression that producing at a higher level than David Njoku means he produced at the level of Travis Kelce? I already addressed everything you said, but you ignored or didn't understand it. I'll give it one more try ...

Your view has 2 flaws.

1. You're viewing pay as a position ranking rather than a reflection of market conditions at the time a contract is negotiated. When a player negotiates a contract there is no requirement that it slot neatly in line with all past contracts to fit somebody's notion of how players at a certain position should be ranked. NFL salaries go up every year, so the market is different every year. Accordingly, a lesser player make get a contract in today's market close to that of a better player who negotiated his last contract 2 years before.

As an example, if you tried to buy a house today the factor driving the price would not be what someone paid 2 years earlier. The market would be what people are willing to pay now, so someone may have been able to get a much better house 2 years ago for the price it costs for a lesser house today. Or the market could go down and the price could be lower, but the bottom line is market prices don't remain stagnant, and the market for NFL players, and the pay level of NFL salaries, are not going down.

2. You are still ignoring there are other terms that matter, primarily the amount fully guaranteed. Kittle is fully guaranteed to get $30 million even if the 49ers cut him. Njoku is only guaranteed to get $17 million if he gets cut, and that's even with a contract negotiated at today's prices rather than 2 years ago when Kittle signed. You're just being obtuse if you don't think that extra guaranteed $13 million doesn't matter.

1) The market for tight ends hasn’t depreciated the way you are suggesting. In fact with a rising cap and it still being an Important position in todays league I’m not sure how you can suggest that market conditions will lead to salary’s going down for tight ends when most evidence would suggest otherwise. This isn’t the running back market. Secondly, I’m viewing his value based on his production comparable to other Salary’s at the position which are comparable to him- btw njoku was your example lol and his stats are clearly better than njokus which would lead to any reputable agent to use njoku as a baseline for negotiations as Schultz’s production is much better.

2) I didn’t suggest it didn’t matter in that sense my point is to tell you that in order to keep his annual salary down you’d need to pay him a higher guaranteed amount. There’s no way his agent isn’t going to compare his stats to other comparable tight ends. There’s actual reporting to what was a realistic contract he’d be offered and was looking for. Those are real reports. You’re just speculating- I’ll side with the sourced material.

lastly, my point is that Paying Schultz significant money even in a way where we can get off the contract quickly would be a mistake. We’ve seen 2 rookies come in and absolutely nothing change with the offense whatsoever and in fact do things like block better already. Even if they don’t pan out you can draft a tight end and develop them while on a rookie deal.

 

[Silverz1972]

Agree. But better franchise tag than a long term high dollar contract. Think you have to let him go.

I have been of the mindset that franchising Shultz was a mistake. As the season has progressed, I am even more of that mindset.

I know he was Dak’s security blanket, but only because Dak can’t read the field that well. I think this was a case of wasted cap space and a younger player could have adequately filled Schultz’ role.

 

[buybuydandavis]

I have been of the mindset that franchising Shultz was a mistake.

You have not been alone.

2021 will turn out to have been Peak Schulz. Not only will we get less productivity this year, we'll get less of a comp pick when he moves on after a lesser year.

 

[OmerV]

1) The market for tight ends hasn’t depreciated the way you are suggesting. In fact with a rising cap and it still being an Important position in todays league I’m not sure how you can suggest that market conditions will lead to salary’s going down for tight ends when most evidence would suggest otherwise. This isn’t the running back market. Secondly, I’m viewing his value based on his production comparable to other Salary’s at the position which are comparable to him- btw njoku was your example lol and his stats are clearly better than njokus which would lead to any reputable agent to use njoku as a baseline for negotiations as Schultz’s production is much better.

2) I didn’t suggest it didn’t matter in that sense my point is to tell you that in order to keep his annual salary down you’d need to pay him a higher guaranteed amount. There’s no way his agent isn’t going to compare his stats to other comparable tight ends. There’s actual reporting to what was a realistic contract he’d be offered and was looking for. Those are real reports. You’re just speculating- I’ll side with the sourced material.

lastly, my point is that Paying Schultz significant money even in a way where we can get off the contract quickly would be a mistake. We’ve seen 2 rookies come in and absolutely nothing change with the offense whatsoever and in fact do things like block better already. Even if they don’t pan out you can draft a tight end and develop them while on a rookie deal.

I didn't say the market for TE's depreciated. In fact, I specifically said the opposite, so you are arguing something that makes no sense.

I also didn't say we should pay Schultz. You've made that argument before, and I pointed out before that it doesn't apply to what I've said. Obviously teams have to make hard financial decisions at times, and they can't pay everyone they would like to, even if the asking price is within a reasonable market rate. Just because something is priced within the parameters of the marketplace doesn't mean you can afford it.

Obviously his agent will compare his stats to other TE's, but, again, it will be based on looking at today's market value, not what market value was 2 years ago. And sure, he may have asked for something North of Njoku, but my point wasn't that it wouldn't be expensive to sign him, just that it would be within current market parameters. It would still be well below Kittle though, and Kittle's contract was based on the lower market rates of 2 years ago.

 

[CTcowboy203]

I didn't say the market for TE's depreciated. In fact, I specifically said the opposite, so you are arguing something that makes no sense.

I also didn't say we should pay Schultz. You've made that argument before, and I pointed out before that it doesn't apply to what I've said. Obviously teams have to make hard financial decisions at times, and they can't pay everyone they would like to, even if the asking price is within a reasonable market rate. Just because something is priced within the parameters of the marketplace doesn't mean you can afford it.

Obviously his agent will compare his stats to other TE's, but, again, it will be based on looking at today's market value, not what market value was 2 years ago. And sure, he may have asked for something North of Njoku, but my point wasn't that it wouldn't be expensive to sign him, just that it would be within current market parameters. It would still be well below Kittle though, and Kittle's contract was based on the lower market rates of 2 years ago.

If by well below kittle you mean 14m sure…..otherwise you’re talking in circles and really not making a ton of sense but we can agree to disagree.

 

[OmerV]

If by well below kittle you mean 14m sure…..otherwise you’re talking in circles and really not making a ton of sense but we can agree to disagree.

And well below the guaranteed amount.

Again, you are ignoring the entire impact of the contract.

And, again, you are ignoring that market value today is not the same as 2 years ago.

So it's you talking in circles, repeating the same cherry picked picture designed to fit a narrative

 

[CTcowboy203]

And well below the guaranteed amount.

Again, you are ignoring the entire impact of the contract.

And, again, you are ignoring that market value today is not the same as 2 years ago.

So it's you talking in circles, repeating the same cherry picked picture designed to fit a narrative

The market value today which is down by your definition….no one else’s. It’s your opinion not backed by any evidence at all. The position is just as important today as 2 years ago- it’s not the running back position. there’s no evidence at all to suggest there will be a significant drop in pay for the position and as recently as March of this year evidence to support a 4/60m contract for Schultz which does give him an annual salary like a top 5 elite tight end.

In one breathe you say “he probably will get or be offered north of njoku” then the next breathe it’s “todays market” as if the offer rumored by Michael gehlken wasn’t from March of this year. I’m not ignoring guarantees I’m telling you that if Schultz got less annually that’s because he got a larger guarantee- which yes, we could get off the books easier but it’s still not worth it for a position that can be replaced via the draft for cheaper or for the cowboys given who else needs to be paid. Furthermore you seem to agree with me about paying Schultz….so what are you even arguing?

you have brought nothing to the table. Move on.

 

[OmerV]

The market value today which is down by your definition….no one else’s. It’s your opinion not backed by any evidence at all. The position is just as important today as 2 years ago- it’s not the running back position. there’s no evidence at all to suggest there will be a significant drop in pay for the position and as recently as March of this year evidence to support a 4/60m contract for Schultz which does give him an annual salary like a top 5 elite tight end.

In one breathe you say “he probably will get or be offered north of njoku” then the next breathe it’s “todays market” as if the offer rumored by Michael gehlken wasn’t from March of this year. I’m not ignoring guarantees I’m telling you that if Schultz got less annually that’s because he got a larger guarantee- which yes, we could get off the books easier but it’s still not worth it for a position that can be replaced via the draft for cheaper or for the cowboys given who else needs to be paid. Furthermore you seem to agree with me about paying Schultz….so what are you even arguing?

you have brought nothing to the table. Move on.

There you go making up crap again. I have repeatedly, consistently and specifically said the market for players is higher today, and you keep falsely saying I've said the opposite.

What is the deal with your repeated insistence on lying about that?

 

[Big_D]

Noah Brown was never meant to replace Amari.

Lamb was

 

[OmerV]

Lamb was

Lamb isn't really a replacement since he was already a starting receiver and already in a role where he got the most targets and receptions on the team.

Brown is the one new to a starting/front line role and getting the snap count that went to Cooper last year.

 

[CTcowboy203]

There you go making up crap again. I have repeatedly, consistently and specifically said the market for players is higher today, and you keep falsely saying I've said the opposite.

What is the deal with your repeated insistence on lying about that?

then we agree. That said 14m with a rising cap is still too much to pay Schulz and would still have him making elite level money for the position for the next few years.

so again you’re just talking to talk at this point