Pacman suspended for 2007; Henry suspended 8 games

[joseephuss]

Uh, no I'm not. I'm talking about the fact that Pacman has not had his day in court on the Vegas incident. His lawyers (if they are good, and I assume they are) will seize upon that and say this is a rush to judgment and he has not been afforded due process. The NFL in this case has instituted this regardless of how that investigation has turned out and they will challenge them on that.

Clear now?

Exactly.

Chris Mortenson was saying that although Pacman is suspended for the year, he can actually come back after 10 games if he meets certain criteria. It is also dependent on how his current cases turn out. Once he gets his due process with those open cases, his suspension may even get longer.

 

[theogt]

Actually it can be. I was a Contractor with Lockheed Martin. When I signed my contract it specifically stated At Will.

Yes, you can contract into "at will" employment. Sorry, I misspoke.

 

[big dog cowboy]

I am already liking the new commish better than Tags.

 

[DallasEast]

I am already liking the new commish better than Tags.

I do too. He has moxie!

 

[5Stars]

The NFL is not required to provide Pacman Jones due process. They do not have the authority to place criminal, or even civil, sanctions on Pacman. There is no prohibition in the constitution or any other law that requires the NFL to give Pacman Due Process.

They can suspend him without due process. There's no legal obligation for due process.

Clear now?

This is what I don't understand about this whole comversation. The NFL and the Courts are seperate entities, right?

Two different things...1. The NFL has guidelines to follow and if broken, they can dismiss you. 2. If you break the law as these guys did, then it's up to the law to determine further punishment, right?

I don't see how one affects the other as long as the NFL guidelines are in accordance with the labor laws of the land (race, sex, handicapped, etc).

Am I lost on this whole thing?

 

[Achozen]

This is good for us, i think.

They might target CB with their first pick instead of WR.

 

[Doomsday101]

I'm glad to see the commissioner getting support from players and the Players Union.:

Two of Henry's teammates, along with NFL Players Association executive director Gene Upshaw, recognized the need for stronger league guidelines for player conduct.

"You would think it's necessary just because of the negative publicity the NFL is beginning to receive because of what's happening," said Bengals receiver T. J. Houshmandzadeh. "It was going on for an extended period of time. Each day, each week, something was happening."

Added Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer: "I think it will (help). With all of the things that have been happening recently, I think it will be good and hopefully give the league a little better image. I hope that it works and that guys abide by the rules and do what's right."

So does Upshaw, of course. He consulted with Goodell before the commissioner, now in his seventh month on the job, revised the conduct policy. Goodell also established a panel of players to offer advice on such matters.

"The NFL Players Association and the Player Advisory Council have been discussing this issue for several months," Upshaw said. "We believe that these are steps that the commissioner needs to take and we support the policy. It is important that players in violation of the policy will have the opportunity and the support to change their conduct and earn their way back."

Tony Dungy said placing responsibility on the teams for their players and employees makes sense, even if it results in penalties that affect more than the wallet.

"That seems to be the thing that gets everyone's attention," the coach of the Super Bowl champion Indianapolis Colts said of potentially lost draft picks and player availability. "We talked about fines at the league meetings, and that may not do the trick. But when you start talking about playing time and draft picks, that seems to get your attention."

 

[theogt]

This is what I don't understand about this whole comversation. The NFL and the Courts are seperate entities, right?

Two different things...1. The NFL has guidelines to follow and if broken, they can dismiss you. 2. If you break the law as these guys did, then it's up to the law to determine further punishment, right?

I don't see how one affects the other as long as the NFL guidelines are in accordance with the labor laws of the land (race, sex, handicapped, etc).

Am I lost on this whole thing?

You've got a pretty good handle on the situation. That's a nice general statement.

 

[Hostile]

The NFL is not required to provide Pacman Jones due process. They do not have the authority to place criminal, or even civil, sanctions on Pacman. There is no prohibition in the constitution or any other law that requires the NFL to give Pacman Due Process.

They can suspend him without due process. There's no legal obligation for due process.

Clear now?

Unreal. Literally unreal. I know I'm speaking English. No idea what your issue is. One more time in pointed English.

His LAWYERS will likely argue that his suspension is a violation of his rights to Due Process of Law. That until he is afforded that right this step is a violation of his Civil Rights. That is what good LAWYERS do.

Ask any of our several LAWYERS on here. One has already said I interpreted it correctly. I will take his word over your babbling, rambling.

I am not talking about the NFL's rights or obligations. I am talking strictly about how his LAWYERS will combat this and what they will argue on his behalf. Whether you choose to admit it or not the Civil Rights of an Individual
are considered sacred and Due Process is a Civil Right.

I won't even ask if it is clear. I know it won't be because you're hung up on somethign no one is talking about.

 

[theogt]

Unreal. Literally unreal. I know I'm speaking English. No idea what your issue is. One more time in pointed English.

His LAWYERS will likely argue that his suspension is a violation of his rights to Due Process of Law. That until he is afforded that right this step is a violation of his Civil Rights. That is what good LAWYERS do.

Ask any of our several LAWYERS on here. One has already said I interpreted it correctly. I will take his word over your babbling, rambling.

I am not talking about the NFL's rights or obligations. I am talking strictly about how his LAWYERS will combat this and what they will argue on his behalf. Whether you choose to admit it or not the Civil Rights of an Individual
are considered sacred and Due Process is a Civil Right.

I won't even ask if it is clear. I know it won't be because you're hung up on somethign no one is talking about.

Honestly, you should look up Due Process. It's a specific legal term that has a specific meaning. The Due Process Clause of the 5th and 14th Amendments do not apply to private organizations. The NFL can suspend Pacman without giving him due process of law.

The lawyers can claim that the laws of Kathmandu apply, but that doesn't mean it's a worthwhile argument or an argument that a smart lawyer would make.

Just like a smart lawyer wouldn't make a habeas claim. They can apply for a writ of habeas corpus, but a judge will look at it and scratch his head, just as he would a due process claim.

You have to ask, who is required to provide due process? Both state and federal governments are required to provide Due Process, but private organizations do not.

 

[5Stars]

Unreal. Literally unreal. I know I'm speaking English. No idea what your issue is. One more time in pointed English.

His LAWYERS will likely argue that his suspension is a violation of his rights to Due Process of Law. That until he is afforded that right this step is a violation of his Civil Rights. That is what good LAWYERS do.

Ask any of our several LAWYERS on here. One has already said I interpreted it correctly. I will take his word over your babbling, rambling.

I am not talking about the NFL's rights or obligations. I am talking strictly about how his LAWYERS will combat this and what they will argue on his behalf. Whether you choose to admit it or not the Civil Rights of an Individual
are considered sacred and Due Process is a Civil Right.

I won't even ask if it is clear. I know it won't be because you're hung up on somethign no one is talking about.

Clear this up for me. What Civil Rights? He signed a contract to abide with the rules of the NFL, he broke them and got a suspension. Where does civil right come into this?

 

[Hostile]

Honestly, you should look up Due Process. It's a specific legal term that has a specific meaning. The Due Process Clause of the 5th and 14th Amendments do not apply to private organizations. The NFL can suspend Pacman without giving him due process of law.

The lawyers can claim that the laws of Kathmandu apply, but that doesn't mean it's a worthwhile argument or an argument that a smart lawyer would make.

Just like a smart lawyer wouldn't make a habeas claim. They can apply for a writ of habeas corpus, but a judge will look at it and scratch his head, just as he would a due process claim.

Lawyers don't make habeas corpus claims. Judges do. It is an order to appear before a judge.

Heed your own advice.

 

[Doomsday101]

Not sure the league used the term "Conduct detrimental to the league" when Irvin was handed down his suspension and if not mistake it is the same wording they are using with Pacman.


"It is not enough to simply avoid being found guilty of a crime," the new policy says. "Instead, as an employee of the NFL or a member club, you are held to a higher standard and expected to conduct yourself in a way that is responsible, promotes the values upon which the league is based, and is lawful.

"Persons who fail to live up to this standard of conduct are guilty of conduct detrimental and subject to discipline, even where the conduct itself does not result in conviction of a crime."

 

[Da Hammer]

okay i agree that Pacman deserves to be suspended for some time but the WHOLE SEASON???? the guy hasnt been convicted of anything unlike henry and Tank Johnson for that matter. in that case Henry deserved a 2 year suspension while johnson deserves like 3 years. i would have suspended Pacman half a season and thats it

 

[theogt]

Lawyers don't make habeas corpus claims. Judges do. It is an order to appear before a judge.

Heed your own advice.

Lawyers apply for a writ of habeas corpus on behalf of their clients. When a lawyer applies for a writ of habeas corpus, the common parlance is that the prisoner made a habeas claim.

 

[RealCowboyfan]

Last week, Jones’s lawyer, Manny Arora, told The Associated Press that he was prepared to fight league discipline. That will leave the union in an unusual position.

“We have a duty of fair representation for our players,” Upshaw said. “But we also understand we have to do something. What we have to do is look at each case and decide, and we don’t want to do anything to prejudice a legal case.

This is good news. I believe the punishment was really way over blown. I believe he should get the same punishment as Chris Henry.

 

[5Stars]

Not sure the league used the term "Conduct detrimental to the league" when Irvin was handed down his suspension and if not mistake it is the same wording they are using with Pacman.


"It is not enough to simply avoid being found guilty of a crime," the new policy says. "Instead, as an employee of the NFL or a member club, you are held to a higher standard and expected to conduct yourself in a way that is responsible, promotes the values upon which the league is based, and is lawful.

"Persons who fail to live up to this standard of conduct are guilty of conduct detrimental and subject to discipline, even where the conduct itself does not result in conviction of a crime."

Now, this makes sense to me! I still feel that this debate is between two different things. The Law and the NFL's rules...

 

[joseephuss]

Honestly, you should look up Due Process. It's a specific legal term that has a specific meaning. The Due Process Clause of the 5th and 14th Amendments do not apply to private organizations. The NFL can suspend Pacman without giving him due process of law.

The lawyers can claim that the laws of Kathmandu apply, but that doesn't mean it's a worthwhile argument or an argument that a smart lawyer would make.

Just like a smart lawyer wouldn't make a habeas claim. They can apply for a writ of habeas corpus, but a judge will look at it and scratch his head, just as he would a due process claim.

Lawyers will bring it up. It may not work, but they will bring up due process. They may even plead temporary insanity. Lawyers will do their job and it may not seem like common sense or that it even applies to Pacman's case, but they will try their best for their client. You say due process does not apply and most will agree with you and in Hos' posts, it looks like he agrees with that, but that doesn't mean a lawyer won't try. It also doesn't mean the NFL and Goodell will or won't accept that arguement. The NFL and Goodell are not beholden to it(due process), but they may use it as a guideline.

 

[Hostile]

Clear this up for me. What Civil Rights? He signed a contract to abide with the rules of the NFL, he broke them and got a suspension. Where does civil right come into this?

Due Process is a Civil Right. His suspension will be argued is based solely upon a presumption of guilt without Due Process. That is what his lawyers will argue to try and overturn his suspension. I honestly don't see how that can even be a question in anyone's mind. Even if you don't understand the workings of Law in its finite details surely you understand that he does not want to be suspended, will fight it, and needs something upon which to grasp and fight.

The NFL has rules of conduct, but this action is unprecedented (has no prior history) and is retroactive (is new action based upon interpretations not in place when his events happened) in nature. It will be argued that without Due Process he is being unfairly treated.

 

[Big Dakota]

Pacman has no case. He has shown a clear pattern of behavior that is against the terms of his contract. He has violated his contract on at least 2 occasions by not informing his team about being arrested. His lawyers can whine and cry all they want but that is that. Henry as well has been in trouble multiple times. These suspensions will stand and will not be reduced- having drawn a line in the sand the Commish dares not draw back. The so called lawyers in this thread know nothing about the CBA, and all the rest of the mechanisms of the NFL. You can BET that Goodell told the NFL attorneys to make absolutely sure that there was no valid way to challenge this before he announced it. Federal courts will not intervene- the anti-trust portions will probably not come into it, but it does not matter. When pacman signed his contract to play in the NFL, he for all intents and purposes agreed to abide by what the NFL (in this case the commisioner) decided. It was a voluntary contract- the federal courts have shown very little willingness to tamper with such.

Very good post!!!