PFT: Union asks Commish to reduce Pacman's Sentence

[superpunk]

They're a whipped puppy. Always have been and apparently always will be.

I see this whole thing as orchestrated.

The comissioner got to take a hardline stance on "thuggery", so he looked good.

The Players association got to go along with it for a while, so they looked good.

Pac Man hasn't gotten in trouble again, so he's looking better.

The players union gets to lobby for a lesser punishment, they look good to their constituents - the commissioner gets to grant it, he looks reasonable and merciful, and Pac Man gets to play after the first 8 games in 2007, so long as he keeps his nose clean.

Mebbe....

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

if he is not worried bout a lawsuit then he is foolish. if goodell plays chicken with this and loses in court then he is opening up a whole ball of mess.

it would be a legal precendent for a legal court to decide league discipline or even jeopardize the entire CBA.

On the other hand, if he's very, very sure of his position, a couple of these challenges go by the boards and all of a sudden, you don't have a whole lot of miss behaving going on.

 

[superpunk]

miss behaving

I gave her a little how's your father, once. nudge, nudge, wink wink, say no more....

 

[StanleySpadowski]

This appeal has nothing to do with Jones in the long run or even Goddell's ability to deal out punishment. There's going to be a reduction, a bone for Upshaw to take back to the masses.

Goddell understands that Gene Upshaw and those like him have been the key to the NFL surpassing MLB in the hearts of America. The NFL will prop up Upshaw at almost any cost because the owners realize a Miller-esque union head would kill the Golden Goose.

 

[hank2k]

I gave her a little how's your father, once. nudge, nudge, wink wink, say no more....

A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat

 

[burmafrd]

The NFLPA is pretty much a joke. There is so much money now in the NFL that there is no way any kind of labor action will happen. Upshaw is just smart enough to see this and that is why they rolled over on the CBA as regards discipline, etc. Goodell can pretty much do what he wants. There is no case for labor law use since these are CONTRACTED employees who have VIOLATED their contract. The courts pretty much have said that that is between the contracted parties- there will be no lawsuits that have a snowballs chance in hell. You can bet that Goodell had some very smart lawyers look it all over first.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The NFLPA is pretty much a joke. There is so much money now in the NFL that there is no way any kind of labor action will happen. Upshaw is just smart enough to see this and that is why they rolled over on the CBA as regards discipline, etc. Goodell can pretty much do what he wants. There is no case for labor law use since these are CONTRACTED employees who have VIOLATED their contract. The courts pretty much have said that that is between the contracted parties- there will be no lawsuits that have a snowballs chance in hell. You can bet that Goodell had some very smart lawyers look it all over first.

apprently the commish violated teh contract too by handing out punsihments on acts that did not result in a conviction. the courts have made no rulings concerning this so why you are trying to tell us that the courst have decided to le tthem handle it themsleves is not very cool.

threre is a legal precedent and beyond just saying that employers cannot just be arbitrary --which i might mention you were one of the people crowing that they could-- it also states that an employer must inform the employee. this basically means that any act before a few weeks ago has to be under the old policy guidelines. in other words he cannot just make up new rules as he goes along.

what it boils down to is that if goodell listed as a reason for the suspensions an act of jones that did not result in a conviction then he is screwed. this is before even you look at his punsihments in comparison to similar cases.

Goodell has two choices: he either can back off from his original suspension and come back in line with what was previously done or he can get sued. Getting to court will be easy on breach of contract and violation of labor laws.

 

[lspain1]

I continue to be surprised at the way this thread has evolved. I want to remind the group what is at stake here.

NFL will confront discipline issue, unveil new policy within days

Here are some quotes out of the article:

It has become a hot-button issue. Since the start of 2006, more than 50 NFL players have been arrested, prompting Commissioner Roger Goodell to draft a revised conduct policy that will dictate harsher punishment for disgraceful deportment

Henry has been arrested four times in three states in 14 months; charges include possession of a concealed firearm, aggravated assault with a firearm, DUI and providing alcohol to minors.

Says Bengals owner Mike Brown: "I think the public has a hard time understanding why we won't do anything. They don't know that we can't."

According to the NFL, rulings on their cases are expected this week using current policy and Goodell's broad powers with respect to conduct detrimental to the game.

There continues to be statements and assumptions in this thread that Goodell has screwed up or otherwise overstepped his authority. I do not believe that is true, but let's presume for the moment he has. The NFL then becomes powerless to punish anyonme without a legal conviction. That perpetuates a policy that clearly has been an abject failure. The NFL will be damaged severely in that case. I do not understand why anyone would believe that Goodell can not act on conduct that has clearly been detrimental to the game.

If the NFL has to meet some type of consistency "test," the logical conclusion of that argument is some type of "book of infractions" that delineates what will happen. For example:

At a strip club and involved in a fight: 6 game suspension
At a strip club and involved in a fight and someone is killed: 1 year suspension
At a strip club and involved in a fight and the player is killed: lifetime suspension

or something like it. That is never going to happen. You can not (and should not) define conduct detrimental to the game in such a tight box that the commissioner can not act. If you do, you will be right back to 50 (or so) arrests a year with no effective countermeasures. This has the potential to destroy the NFL if it continues.

I am going to repeat my stance. Goodell had no choice and had to act. He has no choice now other than seeing this through. PacMan Jones represents, with his visibility and his complete disregard for the consequences of his public actions, a "clear and present danger" to the NFL. That's the prism through which I view this issue.

Based upon my stated view, it appears to me some posters here are more concerned with Goodell's actions rather than PacMan's. It's the off-season, so I understand idle talk, but I believe PacMan Jones is getting exactly what he deserves and Goodell is acting for the good of the NFL and my own personal good as well. The greed of the owners always has the potential to hurt the NFL, but PacMan (and others like him) will destroy the NFL a lot quicker IMO. I am firmly on the side of the commissioner to take whatever steps he deems necessary to get this thing under control and I hope the NFLPA falls firmly on its face in this matter.

Those of you taking PacMan's side (or criticizing Goodell...it looks about the same to me), should consider the consequences to the NFL if Goodell is forced to back down. Those consequences could well be catastrophic and I do not believe I am exaggerating.

 

[theogt]

^^^ Wow, a slippery slope argument. Never saw that one coming.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

apprently the commish violated teh contract too by handing out punsihments on acts that did not result in a conviction. the courts have made no rulings concerning this so why you are trying to tell us that the courst have decided to le tthem handle it themsleves is not very cool.

threre is a legal precedent and beyond just saying that employers cannot just be arbitrary --which i might mention you were one of the people crowing that they could-- it also states that an employer must inform the employee. this basically means that any act before a few weeks ago has to be under the old policy guidelines. in other words he cannot just make up new rules as he goes along.

what it boils down to is that if goodell listed as a reason for the suspensions an act of jones that did not result in a conviction then he is screwed. this is before even you look at his punsihments in comparison to similar cases.

Goodell has two choices: he either can back off from his original suspension and come back in line with what was previously done or he can get sued. Getting to court will be easy on breach of contract and violation of labor laws.

You seem to be missing a key element in the Jones situation; He was arrested and failed to inform his club of said arrest, a clear violation of his terms of employment. Jones is lucky that a suspension is the only punishment. Termination with a pro-rated return of his signing bonus is a valid legal option and his only case would be anti-trust when no one else rolled the dice on him.

And Goddell has more than two choices. The Office of the Commisioner has almost unparalled discretionary power to discipline "employees". It's even in the CBA.

I didn't look it up but does anyone know if Tennessee is a "right to work" state?

 

[jobberone]

I continue to be surprised at the way this thread has evolved. I want to remind the group what is at stake here.

NFL will confront discipline issue, unveil new policy within days

Here are some quotes out of the article:

It has become a hot-button issue. Since the start of 2006, more than 50 NFL players have been arrested, prompting Commissioner Roger Goodell to draft a revised conduct policy that will dictate harsher punishment for disgraceful deportment

Henry has been arrested four times in three states in 14 months; charges include possession of a concealed firearm, aggravated assault with a firearm, DUI and providing alcohol to minors.

Says Bengals owner Mike Brown: "I think the public has a hard time understanding why we won't do anything. They don't know that we can't."

According to the NFL, rulings on their cases are expected this week using current policy and Goodell's broad powers with respect to conduct detrimental to the game.

There continues to be statements and assumptions in this thread that Goodell has screwed up or otherwise overstepped his authority. I do not believe that is true, but let's presume for the moment he has. The NFL then becomes powerless to punish anyonme without a legal conviction. That perpetuates a policy that clearly has been an abject failure. The NFL will be damaged severely in that case. I do not understand why anyone would believe that Goodell can not act on conduct that has clearly been detrimental to the game.

If the NFL has to meet some type of consistency "test," the logical conclusion of that argument is some type of "book of infractions" that delineates what will happen. For example:

At a strip club and involved in a fight: 6 game suspension
At a strip club and involved in a fight and someone is killed: 1 year suspension
At a strip club and involved in a fight and the player is killed: lifetime suspension

or something like it. That is never going to happen. You can not (and should not) define conduct detrimental to the game in such a tight box that the commissioner can not act. If you do, you will be right back to 50 (or so) arrests a year with no effective countermeasures. This has the potential to destroy the NFL if it continues.

I am going to repeat my stance. Goodell had no choice and had to act. He has no choice now other than seeing this through. PacMan Jones represents, with his visibility and his complete disregard for the consequences of his public actions, a "clear and present danger" to the NFL. That's the prism through which I view this issue.

Based upon my stated view, it appears to me some posters here are more concerned with Goodell's actions rather than PacMan's. It's the off-season, so I understand idle talk, but I believe PacMan Jones is getting exactly what he deserves and Goodell is acting for the good of the NFL and my own personal good as well. The greed of the owners always has the potential to hurt the NFL, but PacMan (and others like him) will destroy the NFL a lot quicker IMO. I am firmly on the side of the commissioner to take whatever steps he deems necessary to get this thing under control and I hope the NFLPA falls firmly on its face in this matter.

Those of you taking PacMan's side (or criticizing Goodell...it looks about the same to me), should consider the consequences to the NFL if Goodell is forced to back down. Those consequences could well be catastrophic and I do not believe I am exaggerating.

Why does someone have to take anyone's side? I don't see this as a simple matter of the good guys...NFL...vs the bad guys....Pacman. Or the other way around.

 

[jobberone]

You seem to be missing a key element in the Jones situation; He was arrested and failed to inform his club of said arrest, a clear violation of his terms of employment. Jones is lucky that a suspension is the only punishment. Termination with a pro-rated return of his signing bonus is a valid legal option and his only case would be anti-trust when no one else rolled the dice on him.

And Goddell has more than two choices. The Office of the Commisioner has almost unparalled discretionary power to discipline "employees". It's even in the CBA.

I didn't look it up but does anyone know if Tennessee is a "right to work" state?

I don't know the answer to your question but yours and others points are good ones and all of them collectively show this to be a complicated situation. It's not even a matter of Jones vs the NFL. Hopefully the NFL will get this right. It's clear they need to clean the house up for the company.

 

[Q_the_man]

Even the legal system provides some wiggle room for judges to exercise discretion in sentencing, so I can not imagine there is any type of case to be made here on "severity" or "the greater wrong." The Tank Johnson case is a good example. Which is a greater punishment....a loss of games and the money (in effect, a fine), or jail time in the offseason? I would view jail time as the "greater" punishment against a fine any day. It'll be interesting to see what Goddell does with this.

so if u had a choice u would rather lose 5 million dollars then go to jail for 2 months.... I'll take the 2 months in Jail.......And come out with my money......

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You seem to be missing a key element in the Jones situation; He was arrested and failed to inform his club of said arrest, a clear violation of his terms of employment. Jones is lucky that a suspension is the only punishment. Termination with a pro-rated return of his signing bonus is a valid legal option and his only case would be anti-trust when no one else rolled the dice on him.

And Goddell has more than two choices. The Office of the Commisioner has almost unparalled discretionary power to discipline "employees". It's even in the CBA.

I didn't look it up but does anyone know if Tennessee is a "right to work" state?

i actually need to read the judgement that they are quoting to be able to comment on this so ill be back in a bit with an answer.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You seem to be missing a key element in the Jones situation; He was arrested and failed to inform his club of said arrest, a clear violation of his terms of employment. Jones is lucky that a suspension is the only punishment. Termination with a pro-rated return of his signing bonus is a valid legal option and his only case would be anti-trust when no one else rolled the dice on him.

And Goddell has more than two choices. The Office of the Commisioner has almost unparalled discretionary power to discipline "employees". It's even in the CBA.

I didn't look it up but does anyone know if Tennessee is a "right to work" state?

Okay now im back. First of all, seeing that these decisions are made in in new york, the titans reside in tennessee, and the NFL encompasses a whole ton of interstate commerce this will fall under the jurisdiction of federal law.

i didnt forget about the failure to report. There were 4 cases mentioned as the incidents to base the suspension on. From what i understand there were one or two cases where jones did not report the arrests. that leaves 2 cases at least where there was no conviction and thus no violation under the old policy. the thing is that despite jones arrest he does not have a single conviction since joining the NFL.

the quote is from elkouri and elkouris handbook on federal labor law:

An employee must receive clear notice of both what the employer expects as well as the range of penalties to be imposed for failing to meet the employer’s expectations

in short he cannot just make up punishments arbitrarily. Essentially he can from three weeks ago onward go with his all encompassing powers but cannot from before that.

 

[burmafrd]

Fuzzy, read the CBA. Goodell can do what he wants to someone that has repeatedly violated his CONTRACT. Pacman has not been terminated which is allowed. So Goodell has not gone as far as he COULD. ANd you keep missing the point about the arrests- does not MATTER if he was not convicted- just that he was arrested. He has CLEARLY shown bad judgement, and has been the cause of much bad publicity, thereby bringing the NFL into disrepute. I do not see how you can keep missing it- Pacman could be kicked out of the NFL for life right now and no one could legally argue Goodell does not have the authority to do so.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy, read the CBA. Goodell can do what he wants to someone that has repeatedly violated his CONTRACT. Pacman has not been terminated which is allowed. So Goodell has not gone as far as he COULD. ANd you keep missing the point about the arrests- does not MATTER if he was not convicted- just that he was arrested. He has CLEARLY shown bad judgement, and has been the cause of much bad publicity, thereby bringing the NFL into disrepute. I do not see how you can keep missing it- Pacman could be kicked out of the NFL for life right now and no one could legally argue Goodell does not have the authority to do so.

do you know anything about federal labor law?

you do realize that the CBA as it existed when pacman supposedly violated it clearly talks about convictions. now i understand the part about him not reporting two of the arrests but the ruling handed downby the commisioner talked about those two incidents and two others. the two others have not resulted in a conviction.

additionally on the top of page 3 of this thread there is a quote from a letter to the league that does say that it violates labor laws and cites a labor law reference.

now i do not know anything about federal labor laws but i imagine pacmans lawyers do and they seem to think they have a case. it is also not unknown for a judge to intervene despite the existence of a labor agreement in professional sports. Look no farther than the inception of free agency in baseball.

 

[burmafrd]

Lawyers paid by the NFLPA to say things. Lawyers paid by Pacman to say things. Show me lawyers NOT paid to say things. Lawyers for people will say anything. Just like politicians running for office. does not make them true.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Lawyers paid by the NFLPA to say things. Lawyers paid by Pacman to say things. Show me lawyers NOT paid to say things. Lawyers for people will say anything. Just like politicians running for office. does not make them true.

like i said i saw a citation from a legal reference. youre not going to be convinced until goodell backtracks or gets sued so im not going to bother trying to convincing you of anything. it seems you are emotionally invested in seeing jones villified no matter what.

 

[burmafrd]

And you, Fuzzy, desperately want to defend Pacman and dog fighting.
Deny it all you want, its clear that YOU have an agenda as well.