Question for Yazuka Rich...

[theogt]

The ball wasn't snapped yet. The guard, center, and DT are all still down in their stance.

Well, that's a penalty then. Bad call by the ref. Seems pretty obvious to me.

 

[Rack]

Well, that's a penalty then. Bad call by the ref. Seems pretty obvious to me.

Well, since the ball wasn't snapped yet, it is possible the DT moved back before the snap. We'd have to see that shot right at the exact instance the ball was snapped to know for sure, or see a video replay of it.

 

[theogt]

No YOU should read before you post. Quit saying he gets too deep when it's his JOB to get deep. Learn the game before you spew out your garbage.


And NO WAY should James had lined up deeper before the snap cuz the play occured on FIRST DOWN, so he still had run responsibility.

Are you just being ridiculous for the heck of it? I clarified my statement that it "appears" that he gets too deep because he doesn't have to speed to cover the shallow portion of his zone when he plays deep.

Of course it can be his responsibility to play deep -- particularly in a cover 2. Stop trying to prove something wrong and read the entire post before posting.

 

[AdamJT13]

I wonder Adam, do you have a pre-snap photo of the formation available?

 

[theogt]

Well, since the ball wasn't snapped yet, it is possible the DT moved back before the snap. We'd have to see that shot right at the exact instance the ball was snapped to know for sure, or see a video replay of it.

Of course if he pulled back it's not a foul. The way it was posted, however, seemed to indicate that the defensive player was in that position when the ball was snapped.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

It depends, what if one of the RBs went out on a route right at the snap? One of those ILBs has to take him. I agree Ayodele should of got a better jam on Stephens, but when it comes down to it, James was the main guy responsible.

Well, that's kinda what I said earlier. That's why I wanted to see the pre-snap allingment. In a cover2, it really depends on where the strong side of the formation is and if the back runs a pattern through the LOS or outside of it. The back can either be the LBs or the CBs. Sometimes, even the safety just depending. Without seeing that, it's too tough to know who had what. To me, it starts with the chuck, especially if James is slow, which he is. You have to give him time to get back into his coverage zone. James on anybody in coverage is a bad matchup, no question but if you already know this, then you have to believe that the other LBs and the safety have been coached on it as well. To me, neither one did a real good job on that play, from what I can see. James either just stood there while Stevens ran by him or he never had enough time to get back into his zone before Stevens was by him. I have no excuse at all on the safety. I don't know why he wasn't there.

 

[theogt]

And NO WAY should James had lined up deeper before the snap cuz the play occured on FIRST DOWN, so he still had run responsibility.

How does he have run responsibility when there isn't a back in the backfield?

 

[Rack]

Are you just being ridiculous for the heck of it? I clarified my statement that it "appears" that he gets too deep because he doesn't have to speed to cover the shallow portion of his zone when he plays deep.

Of course it can be his responsibility to play deep -- particularly in a cover 2. Stop trying to prove something wrong and read the entire post before posting.

So he should worry more about the shallow "portion" of his zone instead of getting DEEP as he's suppose to?


I'm not proving "something" wrong, I'm proving YOU wrong when you say James gets/got too deep when we call that D. Saying he gets too deep to cover the shallow routes in that D is no different then saying Pat Watkins gets to deep to cover the shallow routes in that zone. It's their JOB to get deep when that D is called.

Well, that's kinda what I said. That's why I wanted to see the pre-snap allingment.

Looking at the presnap pic now, you're right. No RB even in the backfield. Looks like Maurice Morris went in motion and since no LB followed him all the way out, it's not man 2 man. Nice to see us going out in our base D vs a 3 wide set (before the RB went in motion) with the game on the line. Ayodele did screw up and should of got a better jam no doubt, but the biggest screw up is by James.

And now looking at it, I know why Roy was so wide on the play. He had more ground to cover to that side (he was on the wide side of the field) and a guy went in motion wide to his side. Probably ran a deep route or the slot ran a corner, drawing him away.

Adam, do you have a wide angle pic of the whole play so we can see what the to recievers on the right did?

 

[Rack]

How does he have run responsibility when there isn't a back in the backfield?

I obviously didn't see the pic since it was posted AFTER I made my post.



And there was a back in the backfield that went in motion.


But make up your mind, was he too deep, not deep enough, etc... You change your stance more often then a kung ** master.

 

[theogt]

So he should worry more about the shallow "portion" of his zone instead of getting DEEP as he's suppose to?


I'm not proving "something" wrong, I'm proving YOU wrong when you say James gets/got too deep when we call that D. Saying he gets too deep to cover the shallow routes in that D is no different then saying Pat Watkins gets to deep to cover the shallow routes in that zone. It's their JOB to get deep when that D is called.

Here is my original post:

If James plays the cover-2 deeper (as he has all season) we are susceptible to underneath passes (as we were all season). James doesn't have the speed to play the position.

My original point was that (1) when he plays deep he is taken advantage of underneath and (2) when he plays close to the line he is taken advantage of deep.

I'm not changing my stance. Please, argue with that instead of creating some straw man.

 

[Rack]

Here is my original post:


My original point was that (1) when he plays deep he is taken advantage of underneath and (2) when he plays close to the line he is taken advantage of deep.

I'm not changing my stance. Please, argue with that instead of creating some straw man.

He has no choice in the matter. When it's his responsibilty to play deep, he has to play deep. And just FYI, there are other LBs that are also suppose to cover the short/med zones. What do you think the OLBs (or 1 OLB and 1 ILB) are supposed to do when we call a cover 2 zone?

 

[theogt]

I obviously didn't see the pic since it was posted AFTER I made my post.

Why are you attempting to talk about the LBs responsibilities when you don't even know what the offensive formation is?

And there was a back in the backfield that went in motion.

Point? Is James too dumb to recognize that he was motioned out?

But make up your mind, was he too deep, not deep enough, etc... You change your stance more often then a kung ** master.

I haven't changed my stance at all. If you were actually read the posts and stop trying to create some straw man you would recognize this.

 

[theogt]

He has no choice in the matter. When it's his responsibilty to play deep, he has to play deep. And just FYI, there are other LBs that are also suppose to cover the short/med zones. What do you think the OLBs (or 1 OLB and 1 ILB) are supposed to do when we call a cover 2 zone?

You're right. He has no choice in the matter. When the play is for him to play deep he does. I never argued against that. It's some straw man you've constructed and I have no idea where you got it from.

Also, Ayodele was in the middle too and has the short zones covered. Bradie was playing too close and got burned.

 

[AdamJT13]

Well, since the ball wasn't snapped yet, it is possible the DT moved back before the snap. We'd have to see that shot right at the exact instance the ball was snapped to know for sure, or see a video replay of it.

I don't have a way to transfer video, so I can't post a video of it. But the defensive tackle did not move at all before the snap. And the overhead is from before the ball was snapped.

Here's the frame from the side as the ball was snapped --v

Notice that all of the linemen on both sides still have their hands on the ground -- nobody has moved yet.

And a close-up of it --v

And the overhead view immediately before the ball is snapped --v

And as the ball is snapped (notice Gurode's upper body position change as he snaps it) --v

Again, this has nothing to do with why the play failed or why we lost. I'd just like to know why this is rarely ever called when it's so obvious so many times. (And we WE don't take advantage of it -- our linemen line up well off the ball.)

 

[theogt]

That last pic is an obvious penalty. I don't see why you're trying to argue that it isn't.

You can whine about refs being inconsistent and calling it strictly on Ware, but not here, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[el_chevo]

I don't have a way to transfer video, so I can't post a video of it. But the defensive tackle did not move at all before the snap. And the overhead is from before the ball was snapped.

Here's the frame from the side as the ball was snapped --v

Notice that all of the linemen on both sides still have their hands on the ground -- nobody has moved yet.

And a close-up of it --v

And the overhead view immediately before the ball is snapped --v

And as the ball is snapped (notice Gurode's upper body position change as he snaps it) --v

Again, this has nothing to do with why the play failed or why we lost. I'd just like to know why this is rarely ever called when it's so obvious so many times. (And we WE don't take advantage of it -- our linemen line up well off the ball.)

God, this makes me sick. So many times during the game the refs missed easy calls that helped the seachickens. I am talking about the end pulling ayodele out of the way during an alexander run as well as others...horrible.

 

[Rack]

Why are you attempting to talk about the LBs responsibilities when you don't even know what the offensive formation is?

Point? Is James too dumb to recognize that he was motioned out?

I haven't changed my stance at all. If you were actually read the posts and stop trying to create some straw man you would recognize this.

Like you knew there was no RB in the backfield. Of course you'll say you did now, but you and I both know you didn't.


And about James' intelligence... no comment. But I will say he doesn't appear to be the sharpest tool in the shed.

I'm not trying to create anything. Just pointing out that James isn't getting too deep on those plays. It's his responsibility to play deep in those situations. The shorter routes are no more his responsibility as they are the FS's responsibility.

You're right. He has no choice in the matter. When the play is for him to play deep he does. I never argued against that. It's some straw man you've constructed and I have no idea where you got it from.

Also, Ayodele was in the middle too and has the short zones covered. Bradie was playing too close and got burned.

What they should of done on that play was (since there was no back in the backfield) switch jobs. James should of came up to jam the TE, and Ayodele should of dropped back.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Romo needs to see that, and snap the ball

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

OK, empty backfield. Even on 1st and 10, this obviously denotes pass so depth from the LBs is a must unless the call is pressure from your position. In a sitution like that, the safety to the left of our defense, in this case Strong (Roy), would have three responsabilities. Lets call the TE (Y), the Slot (H) and the split out WR (Z). What can beat the Cover2 from this formation? Anything that influences the Safety to leave his primary responsability which is, in this case, the 3rd deep zone, anything that influences the safety to come up too far in coverage and allows a receiver to cut behind his coverage, anything that allows a WR to develope a long pattern on the other safety by running across the face of the defense or, a double move to the outside that leaves the safety to cover a sideline pattern from the middle of the field. Ayodele is definatly responsible for the short underneith across the middle of the formation and he's also responsable for getting a good jam on the TE. James, at this point, should be getting a deeper set IMO, but he probably also has over the top responsiblity for the slot guy running an out on Carpenter. Roy's responsabilities in a straight cover2 are #1 - the strait seam by Y or H in his own zone. #2 - the deep route with over the top help on the Z and the intermidiate middle from any of the three realeasing int his zone. He may also have a 4th which would be the slant from the off WR side into or behind his position but really, that's a very long developing play and the other Safety should have the cover on that. Regardless, the safety with responsability in this set (Roy) has to wait until the receiver uncovers his route. He must wait to see if the H or Y is running a seam before he lends help over the top to his CB on Z. This looks to me like a total break down in coverage. Ayodele didn't get near enough push, Brady didn't get enough depth and Roy didn't cover his responsability correctly. You can probably throw in the fact that nobody got pressure. I don't know guys, if this is a straight cover2, then I think everybody has some responsability here.

 

[Rack]

That last pic is an obvious penalty. I don't see why you're trying to argue that it isn't.

You can whine about refs being inconsistent and calling it strictly on Ware, but not here, but that's neither here nor there.

You referring to me? I didn't argue it wasn't a penalty.


But the thing about that situation is, the LOS is where the ball is, not where Gurode's helmet is. Most center are crouched over the ball and their helmet is further passed it before the snap.

That said, eventhough Gurode's helmet is passed the LOS while he's in his stance, it still appears that Seattle is offsides. I mean, how much further can his helmet be passed the ball? It can't be THAT far.

The refs dropped the ball on that one. Just like they did on overturning the Witten play.