Question for Yazuka Rich...

[Chocolate Lab]

I agree, although if Roy weren't a robot (thanks to Zimmer) his instincts could of/would of kicked in and he could of/would of got a jump on that pass and possibly picked it off or knocked it away. A safety has to sometimes be like a QB, and anticipate. Roy, the longer he's been under Zimmer, has anticipated less and less. Same could be said about Newman.


Hopefully our next DCoord - if we get one - won't be so eternally anal about technique, and allow his player makers to run a bit more on instinct.

And I have no doubt the next DC will.

Unlike Rich, I blame most of our predictable schemes and vanilla calls on Parcells. But I blame the slavery to "perfect" technique and turning guys into robots on Zimmer.

 

[AdamJT13]

The question I have is where was James lined up on this play?

James lined up directly across from Stevens --v

Ayodele came over and jammed Stevens a little --v

Then James jammed Stevens as well (after 5 yards, by the way) --v

And James ended up in a trailing position --v

Was it really a straight Cover2 or was it something else?

It certainly looks like a straight Cover 2 out of a 3-4 defense.

Somebody should be there to help him over the top in a straight cover 2.

Only if he's not already helping someone else over the top. Read the breakdown I posted above -- the way to attack a Cover 2 is to run the receivers deep on the outside to pull the safeties away from the middle, and run a tight end on a deep post right down the middle. He'll be mismatched against a linebacker, because a safety can't play over the receivers and still get back to the middle against the tight end.

 

[Crown Royal]

Judging by the screens - James was the responsibility and the top coverage - he should have been deeper - that's actually why Ayodele chucked the guy, to give James the opportunity to catch him in the deep zone. The more I see this the more I am convinced that James is the problem.

What bothers me is that when he is out of position, it is either because he is too shallow in deep coverage or too deep when he should be closer to the LOS. His angles blow.

 

[theogt]

If James plays the cover-2 deeper (as he has all season) we are susceptible to underneath passes (as we were all season). James doesn't have the speed to play the position.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

James lined up directly across from Stevens --v

Ayodele came over and jammed Stevens a little --v

Then James jammed Stevens as well (after 5 yards, by the way) --v

And James ended up in a trailing position --v

It certainly looks like a straight Cover 2 out of a 3-4 defense.




Only if he's not already helping someone else over the top. Read the breakdown I posted above -- the way to attack a Cover 2 is to run the receivers deep on the outside to pull the safeties away from the middle, and run a tight end on a deep post right down the middle. He'll be mismatched against a linebacker, because a safety can't play over the receivers and still get back to the middle against the tight end.

CR is correct. James really should have been deeper IMO. This looks to me like maybe 7 yards deep. That's fine, he should be 7 to 10 deep in a passing situation but he should be backpeddling right at the snap. Looks like he let Stevens get on him and buy him but, even still, the safety should not be in a position to give up the TD like that. In a straight cover2, he should not have commited so early to the WR. That's not the responsability in that coverage. You must make the TE or Slot show his route before commiting to over the top help on the the WR. I don't know where the safety was on that. Might have thought that Stevens was breaking off his pattern. I wonder if it was a double move by Stevens?

I wonder Adam, do you have a pre-snap photo of the formation available? If the line is balanced with two WRs to each side or a two recieves to the other side, the responsabilty of the safety then changes somewhat and that could account for the safety being out of position. In that situation, the Safety then has to adjust alignment and/or account for a back occasionally. Honestly, I just don't understand why the Cowboys don't sight adjust to the strong side of the formation and play the FS to the strong side. They never do this. They just allow for an offense to isolate Strong (Roy) and make him play the more difficult coverage. If they adjusted FS and SS, Roy would be on the uncovered side of the formation or at worst, force a balanced offensive set. At that point, the coverage assignments, at least IMO, would be come much easier.

I don't know, I'm not a Pro Coach.

 

[Rack]

If James plays the cover-2 deeper (as he has all season) we are susceptible to underneath passes (as we were all season). James doesn't have the speed to play the position.

1. No, he hasn't done that all season. We gave up a few plays like that one this year because of James.


2. It's one of the ILBs JOB in a CvR2 zone to get depth in the middle of the field.


3. I vaguley (sp?) remember a few plays this season where James didn't get enough depth and got beat deep over the middle when playing Cover 2. But it's not always James' responsibility, depending on the offensive allignment, it is sometimes the other ILB's job to get deep. I can remember maybe 1 play where we got beat deep and Ayodele was the one trailing.

 

[Rack]

CR is correct. James really should have been deeper IMO. This looks to me like maybe 7 yards deep. That's fine, he should be 7 to 10 deep in a passing situation but he should be backpeddling right at the snap.

Not if it was man coverage. What if he back peddle right at the snap, but Stephens runs a short out or a short curl? That wasn't a mental screwup by James, it was a physical inadaquacy (sp?). He's just not quick or fast enough to cover anyone.

 

[theogt]

1. No, he hasn't done that all season. We gave up a few plays like that one this year because of James.


2. It's one of the ILBs JOB in a CvR2 zone to get depth in the middle of the field.


3. I vaguley (sp?) remember a few plays this season where James didn't get enough depth and got beat deep over the middle when playing Cover 2. But it's not always James' responsibility, depending on the offensive allignment, it is sometimes the other ILB's job to get deep. I can remember maybe 1 play where we got beat deep and Ayodele was the one trailing.

There have been plenty of times where James was playing too deep over the middle. He wasn't "too deep" per se, but his speed makes him appear too deep because he can't get up (or down) in the zone to cover whoever comes into his zone.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

1. No, he hasn't done that all season. We gave up a few plays like that one this year because of James.


2. It's one of the ILBs JOB in a CvR2 zone to get depth in the middle of the field.


3. I vaguley (sp?) remember a few plays this season where James didn't get enough depth and got beat deep over the middle when playing Cover 2. But it's not always James' responsibility, depending on the offensive allignment, it is sometimes the other ILB's job to get deep. I can remember maybe 1 play where we got beat deep and Ayodele was the one trailing.

Rack is correct on the ILB assignments. It depends on a lot of things. One, if you have a Dog on, or motion sometimes dictates which LB has the cover etc. However, James was trailing the whole way. This tells me that he probably has the deeper zone coverage. Something else that's interesting about this photo. Look at where Stevens is lined up. He's maybe a yard or so shaded to the inside of the Hash. He gets a pretty clean release here because by the time he is one James, he's hardly moved off his route at all. James may be in bad position here but Ayodele certainly didn't help him much. He got no chuck on Stevens at all to make him break his pattern. Clean release pretty much. Stevens was on James real fast and I'll bet you that's Ayodele's responsability.

 

[AdamJT13]

If James plays the cover-2 deeper (as he has all season) we are susceptible to underneath passes (as we were all season). James doesn't have the speed to play the position.

On that particular play, we were still in a 3-4 and rushed only the three lineman. So Ayodele had the short middle covered, with Ware and Carpenter in the flats.

By the way, theogt, remember all of those still frames I posted of defensive linemen lined up offside and not getting flagged? (In the Ware thread a few weeks ago.) Well, take a look at how Seattle lined up on Barber's failed third-and-1 run --

Notice the hand of the right defensive tackle, Chick Darby?

Here's a closer view --

And the overhead view, which makes it look even more ridiculous --

I'd like to know how a line judge can see a guy's hand right next to the ball and his helmet PAST the top of the center's helmet and not call a penalty. And no, that's not why the play failed (Darby got blocked) or why we lost.

 

[theogt]

Rack is correct on the ILB assignments. It depends on a lot of things. One, if you have a Dog on, or motion sometimes dictates which LB has the cover etc. However, James was trailing the whole way. This tells me that he probably has the deeper zone coverage. Something else that's interesting about this photo. Look at where Stevens is lined up. He's maybe a yard or so shaded to the inside of the Hash. He gets a pretty clean release here because by the time he is one James, he's hardly moved off his route at all. James may be in bad position here but Ayodele certainly didn't help him much. He got no chuck on Stevens at all to make him break his pattern. Clean release pretty much. Stevens was on James real fast and I'll bet you that's Ayodele's responsability.

Of course it can be either of the ILBs coverage. Who said otherwise?

Re: Stevens -- he's about a yard and half inside the hash when he lines up. After he passes Ayodele he's outside the hash. How far can you really expect Ayodele to reroute him?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Not if it was man coverage. What if he back peddle right at the snap, but Stephens runs a short out or a short curl? That wasn't a mental screwup by James, it was a physical inadaquacy (sp?). He's just not quick or fast enough to cover anyone.

If Stevens breaks his pattern on an out, then Ayodele becomes the under cover and James the over the top in the short zone. If he breaks it inside, then James plants him, or at least should. You never ever let a TE come across the face of the formation in a Cover2. That's a cardinal sin. If this was a man coverage situation, then everybody who is calling for Parcells and Zimmer's head are correct. No way in hell that James should have Stevens man to man all over the field. That's just bad football.

 

[Rack]

There have been plenty of times where James was playing too deep over the middle. He wasn't "too deep" per se, but his speed makes him appear too deep because he can't get up (or down) in the zone to cover whoever comes into his zone.

Again, this time listen/read, it's one of the ILB's JOB to get DEEP when you play a cover 2 zone. You can't "get to deep" when you play it. First responsibility is to cover the deep routes, not the short routes.


So if anything, he wasn't deep enough, most of the time, when we called that Defense.


I'd rather give up three 10 yards short middle passes in a row, then to give up 1 39 yard TD catch.

 

[theogt]

I'd like to know how a line judge can see a guy's hand right next to the ball and his helmet PAST the top of the center's helmet and not call a penalty. And no, that's not why the play failed (Darby got blocked) or why we lost.

If the ball isn't snapped yet, that deserves a flag right there. It's probably misleading, though because I think the ball has been snapped and he's already started crossing the LOS.

 

[Rack]

If Stevens breaks his pattern on an out, then Ayodele becomes the under cover and James the over the top in the short zone. If he breaks it inside, then James plants him, or at least should. You never ever let a TE come across the face of the formation in a Cover2. That's a cardinal sin. If this was a man coverage situation, then everybody who is calling for Parcells and Zimmer's head are correct. No way in hell that James should have Stevens man to man all over the field. That's just bad football.

It depends, what if one of the RBs went out on a route right at the snap? One of those ILBs has to take him. I agree Ayodele should of got a better jam on Stephens, but when it comes down to it, James was the main guy responsible.

 

[theogt]

Again, this time listen/read, it's one of the ILB's JOB to get DEEP when you play a cover 2 zone. You can't "get to deep" when you play it. First responsibility is to cover the deep routes, not the short routes.


So if anything, he wasn't deep enough, most of the time, when we called that Defense.


I'd rather give up three 10 yards short middle passes in a row, then to give up 1 39 yard TD catch.

You're not listening or reading. I didn't state that it wasn't the a ILBs job to get deep in the cover 2. That much is obvious. In fact, I said earlier in the thread that either (1) it was man coverage or (2) he was playing too close to the LOS. It appears to be a cover-2 and he was playing too close to the LOS.

You should read before you post.

 

[Rack]

If the ball isn't snapped yet, that deserves a flag right there. It's probably misleading, though because I think the ball has been snapped and he's already started crossing the LOS.

The ball wasn't snapped yet. The guard, center, and DT are all still down in their stance.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Of course it can be either of the ILBs coverage. Who said otherwise?

Re: Stevens -- he's about a yard and half inside the hash when he lines up. After he passes Ayodele he's outside the hash. How far can you really expect Ayodele to reroute him?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. When the TE releases, you gotta knock the piss out of him and disrupt the route convincingly. He has to break stride and you should certainly move him off his line. This, to me, is not enough on the chuck to make a difference.

 

[theogt]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. When the TE releases, you gotta knock the piss out of him and disrupt the route convincingly. He has to break stride and you should certainly move him off his line. This, to me, is not enough on the chuck to make a difference.

Oh, I agree that he could have done more. He could have knocked him flat on his arse. But it wasn't like it was bad play by Ayodele.

 

[Rack]

You're not listening or reading. I didn't state that it wasn't the a ILBs job to get deep in the cover 2. That much is obvious. In fact, I said earlier in the thread that either (1) it was man coverage or (2) he was playing too close to the LOS. It appears to be a cover-2 and he was playing too close to the LOS.

You should read before you post.

No YOU should read before you post. Quit saying he gets too deep when it's his JOB to get deep. Learn the game before you spew out your garbage.


And NO WAY should James had lined up deeper before the snap cuz the play occured on FIRST DOWN, so he still had run responsibility.