Question for Yazuka Rich...

[theogt]

What they should of done on that play was (since there was no back in the backfield) switch jobs. James should of came up to jam the TE, and Ayodele should of dropped back.

It really is too bad that Ellis's injury caused Carp to be moved back outside. Just think if Ellis was still on the field and Carp was taking playing time away from James at the end of the season.

I get the feeling things would have turned out very differently.

And no, Rack, I wasn't referring to you regarding the offsides penalty.

 

[Rack]

OK, empty backfield. Even on 1st and 10, this obviously denotes pass so depth from the LBs is a must unless the call is pressure from your position. In a sitution like that, the safety to the left of our defense, in this case Strong (Roy), would have three responsabilities. Lets call the TE (Y), the Slot (H) and the split out WR (Z). What can beat the Cover2 from this formation? Anything that influences the Safety to leave his primary responsability which is, in this case, the 3rd deep zone, anything that influences the safety to come up too far in coverage and allows a receiver to cut behind his coverage, anything that allows a WR to develope a long pattern on the other safety by running across the face of the defense or, a double move to the outside that leaves the safety to cover a sideline pattern from the middle of the field. Ayodele is definatly responsible for the short underneith across the middle of the formation and he's also responsable for getting a good jam on the TE. James, at this point, should be getting a deeper set IMO, but he probably also has over the top responsiblity for the slot guy running an out on Carpenter. Roy's responsabilities in a straight cover2 are #1 - the strait seam by Y or H in his own zone. #2 - the deep route with over the top help on the Z and the intermidiate middle from any of the three realeasing int his zone. He may also have a 4th which would be the slant from the off WR side into or behind his position but really, that's a very long developing play and the other Safety should have the cover on that. Regardless, the safety with responsability in this set (Roy) has to wait until the receiver uncovers his route. He must wait to see if the H or Y is running a seam before he lends help over the top to his CB on Z. This looks to me like a total break down in coverage. Ayodele didn't get near enough push, Brady didn't get enough depth and Roy didn't cover his responsability correctly. You can probably throw in the fact that nobody got pressure. I don't know guys, if this is a straight cover2, then I think everybody has some responsability here.

There is no 3rd deep zone in cover 2. Cover 2 means "2 deep". The safeties have deep halves, one of the ILBs has med/deep middle (but not as deep as the safeties). Of course, if the ILB sees someone in his zone running deep over the middle, he has to run with him.


Just a little clarification. ^^^



I'd like to see what the recivers did during that route. My money is on someone running a deep outside route, drawing Roy out there.


One thing's for sure, the TD wasn't Roy's fault.

 

[Crown Royal]

In looking at all the pictures, it appears that James initially lined up correctly. I don't want him much deeper than that.

What I think i remember, though, is a bigtime hesitation when Ayodele chucked him, and then not enough anticipation on the route to keep Stephens in front of him.

 

[AdamJT13]

That last pic is an obvious penalty. I don't see why you're trying to argue that it isn't.

Hello? I've repeatedly said I'd like to know why it's not a penalty.

You can whine about refs being inconsistent and calling it strictly on Ware, but not here, but that's neither here nor there.

That play was nothing like Ware's play. Ware lined up off the ball, moved before the ball was snapped and STILL wasn't even with the ball -- and he was flagged for being offsides. Darby LINED UP in the neutral zone and wasn't flagged for it, and I'd like to know why. Is it something that's not supposed to be strictly enforced? Are the defensive linemen given leeway? Is there some loophole? I'd like to know. If that's whining, then so be it. But like I said, it has nothing to do with why the play failed or why we lost.

 

[Rack]

It really is too bad that Ellis's injury caused Carp to be moved back outside. Just think if Ellis was still on the field and Carp was taking playing time away from James at the end of the season.

I get the feeling things would have turned out very differently.

And no, Rack, I wasn't referring to you regarding the offsides penalty.

The thing is, Carp played well on the outside. He can be a probowl OLB in a 3-4. He has the ability (not saying he WILL be in the probowl). His best position is outside, as he also has a solid pass rush. But I agree, he would of done a better job covering that play then James. Then again, I would of done a better job covering that play then James.


If Ellis comes back 100%, I'd move Carp inside. But it's more likely Ellis' will never be able to play OLB again. He barely had the speed/quickness to do it before, and now he's gonna lose some of it. Possibly a lot of it.



I'd rather keep carp outside and hope like hell someone takes James' job next year. Can Fowler really be any worse then James? Hell, Fowler plays with more fire too, which is exactly what our D needs.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

There is no 3rd deep zone in cover 2. Cover 2 means "2 deep". The safeties have deep halves, one of the ILBs has med/deep middle (but not as deep as the safeties). Of course, if the ILB sees someone in his zone running deep over the middle, he has to run with him.


Just a little clarification. ^^^



I'd like to see what the recivers did during that route. My money is on someone running a deep outside route, drawing Roy out there.


One thing's for sure, the TD wasn't Roy's fault.

Left to right, quartered. In this case, Roys zone was the third deep quarter. When you play a cover2, you basically have 4 DBs deep in a standard formation. A base cover2 dictates that the first responsability of the safety in a cover2 is his own deep zone. He very well could have been influenced but that's why it's soo important to get good safety play in a cover2. If you make a mistake, it's easy to get beat for 7 in this defense. Of course, this defense, IMO, is only good if you can get good pressure and you have speed in your defensive backfield. Something I don't think we can do or posses.

 

[theogt]

Hello? I've repeatedly said I'd like to know why it's not a penalty.




That play was nothing like Ware's play. Ware lined up off the ball, moved before the ball was snapped and STILL wasn't even with the ball -- and he was flagged for being offsides. Darby LINED UP in the neutral zone and wasn't flagged for it, and I'd like to know why. Is it something that's not supposed to be strictly enforced? Are the defensive linemen given leeway? Is there some loophole? I'd like to know. If that's whining, then so be it. But like I said, it has nothing to do with why the play failed or why we lost.

In my opinion, they were both penalties (the pic showed in this thread and the Ware play). In this pic, the line judge failed to call it. That happens sometimes.

 

[Rack]

Left to right, quartered. In this case, Roys zone was the third deep quarter. When you play a cover2, you basically have 4 DBs deep in a standard formation. A base cover2 dictates that the first responsability of the safety in a cover2 is his own deep zone. He very well could have been influenced but that's why it's soo important to get good safety play in a cover2. If you make a mistake, it's easy to get beat for 7 in this defense. Of course, this defense, IMO, is only good if you can get good pressure and you have speed in your defensive backfield. Something I don't think we can do or posses.

That is incorrect. When you play cover 2, you have 2 DBs with deep coverage (usually the safeties) with the CBs covering the Flats, and a MLB playing "Deep" Middle (deep for his position, but not as deep as the safeties unless someone runs deep into that zone, then he gets deep).


You're thinking of 4 deep or a "Quarters" defense, where 4 DBs play deep.


Of course it's not that simple, but that's the basic of it. Cover 2 is not 4 deep.

 

[percyhoward]

I'm sick that they didn't call offside, but I'm closer to deathly ill that Romo didn't just sneak it into that gap.

 

[Rack]

Here's a basic diagram of a cover 2 zone defense, although the MLB is suppose to get deeper then the diagram suggests...

 

[AdamJT13]

I'd like to see what the recivers did during that route. My money is on someone running a deep outside route, drawing Roy out there.

The outside receiver on Roy's side (the man who motioned out of the backfield) ran an out, the slot receiver ran a go and the tight end ran a skinny post. On the other side, the slot receiver ran a short curl and drifted outside, and the outside receiver ran a skinny post.

If Roy plays closer to the middle, that leaves the slot guy open on a go or corner route. If he plays closer to the outside, that leaves the tight end open on a deep post. In a Cover 2, it is IMPERATIVE that the middle linebacker drops deep enough to make it nearly impossible for the quarterback to throw over him to the tight end.

Here's another snippet from that Cover 2 breakdown (it was part of a premium article on another site, or I'd post the whole thing) --

"The middle linebacker has a drop to cover the middle of the field, which is often vacated by the safeties. He will usually cheat to the strong side in order to compensate for the TE, and cannot let anything get behind him. If he does, he has no deep help, and it will most likely be six points for the opposition."

James let Stevens get behind him by 3-4 yards, which made it an easy throw for Hasselbeck.

 

[Rack]

The outside receiver on Roy's side (the man who motioned out of the backfield) ran an out, the slot receiver ran a go and the tight end ran a skinny post. On the other side, the slot receiver ran a short curl and drifted outside, and the outside receiver ran a skinny post.

If Roy plays closer to the middle, that leaves the slot guy open on a go or corner route. If he plays closer to the outside, that leaves the tight end open on a deep post. In a Cover 2, it is IMPERATIVE that the middle linebacker drops deep enough to make it nearly impossible for the quarterback to throw over him to the tight end.

Here's another snippet from that Cover 2 breakdown (it was part of a premium article on another site, or I'd post the whole thing) --

"The middle linebacker has a drop to cover the middle of the field, which is often vacated by the safeties. He will usually cheat to the strong side in order to compensate for the TE, and cannot let anything get behind him. If he does, he has no deep help, and it will most likely be six points for the opposition."

James let Stevens get behind him by 3-4 yards, which made it an easy throw for Hasselbeck.

And that's what I've been saying all thread.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That is incorrect. When you play cover 2, you have 2 DBs with deep coverage (usually the safeties) with the CBs covering the Flats, and a MLB playing "Deep" Middle (deep for his position, but not as deep as the safeties unless someone runs deep into that zone, then he gets deep).


You're thinking of 4 deep or a "Quarters" defense, where 4 DBs play deep.


Of course it's not that simple, but that's the basic of it. Cover 2 is not 4 deep.

No, the CB has responsability for his own zone. I agree that you should probably get help over the top from a safety in a cover2 but you may not always get it. For example, the go on a TE or slot in a cover two is always going to be on the safety. In that situation, if the x or the Z are also running deep routes, the corner has man responsability all the way. The safety can not come off to provide help in that situation until the ball is in the air. It's not a quarters but depending on what is called, it can have some of the same coverage responsibilities. As I said earlier, the key to it is getting force on the QB. If you can't do that, then you have a lot of guys exposed in a cover2.

 

[Rack]

No, the CB has responsability for his own zone. I agree that you should probably get help over the top from a safety in a cover2 but you may not always get it. For example, the go on a TE or slot in a cover two is always going to be on the safety. In that situation, if the x or the Z are also running deep routes, the corner has man responsability all the way. The safety can not come off to provide help in that situation until the ball is in the air. It's not a quarters but depending on what is called, it can have some of the same coverage responsibilities. As I said earlier, the key to it is getting force on the QB. If you can't do that, then you have a lot of guys exposed in a cover2.

Again, incorrect.

Stephens basically ran a "Go" for that TD, yet it wasn't Roy's responsibility. The main responsibility for the safeties in a cover 2 is the deep outside. That's why it's necessary for the MLB to get deep in the middle cuz the safety won't always be there.


As for the CBs, if the WR (furthest outside) runs a streak, he has to run with him (not necessarily tight coverage, but not let him go too soon) until someone comes into his zone. The CBs job is NOT deep coverage in a cover 2 zone (not a basic cover 2 zone).

the key to it is getting force on the QB. If you can't do that, then you have a lot of guys exposed in a cover2

This part...


Although that's really the case in any defensive scheme, but moreso in cover 2 IMO.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Again, incorrect.

Stephens basically ran a "Go" for that TD, yet it wasn't Roy's responsibility. The main responsibility for the safeties in a cover 2 is the deep outside. That's why it's necessary for the MLB to get deep in the middle cuz the safety won't always be there.


As for the CBs, if the WR (furthest outside) runs a streak, he has to run with him (not necessarily tight coverage, but not let him go too soon) until someone comes into his zone. The CBs job is NOT deep coverage in a cover 2 zone (not a basic cover 2 zone).





This part...


Although that's really the case in any defensive scheme, but moreso in cover 2 IMO.

No, I can not agree with you on this one Rack. The safety has to play the seam because no matter how deep a drop a LB gets, they can only effectively cover so much space. The longer a pattern takes to develope, the better position a LB should be in in a cover two but if you have speed at the slot or at TE, a LB will never be able to cover it. A safety must play the seam for a TD. If he has weak side responsability, then he has over the top responsability on the WR to his side of the field. If he's unbalanced with H, Y and Z, he has to check the seam. This is why it is crucial to play the proper technique if your the CB. You must never allow for the WR to get the sideline release on you. You have to turn him inside so that the safety can effectively give over the top support to any of the three recievers to the strong side of the formation.

 

[AdamJT13]

No, I can not agree with you on this one Rack. The safety has to play the seam because no matter how deep a drop a LB gets, they can only effectively cover so much space. The longer a pattern takes to develope, the better position a LB should be in in a cover two but if you have speed at the slot or at TE, a LB will never be able to cover it. A safety must play the seam for a TD.

That's not correct. The safety's primary concern is the deep outside zone, because the safety in the only person responsible for that area of the field (the cornerback will always be underneath the receiver running deep on the outside). If a receiver runs into the deep middle, the middle linebacker is supposed to drop deep enough to cover him. Your statement about a linebacker "never being able to cover it" describes the vulnerability of the Cover 2 -- if the linebacker can't cover it, or at least force a perfect throw, it's a big play, because if an outside receiver holds the safety outside, he'll never get to the middle in time.

Here's what Jerramy Stevens said about the play --

"(My responsibility) was to get down the middle, and if I could run past the linebacker, to keep on running. ... I knew if I got past him, Matt was going to put the ball up. I think we put them in a bind with the formation. It was a great call because we have too much speed on them right there. They were forced to vacate the middle, and all I had to do was outrun the middle linebacker."

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's not correct. The safety's primary concern is the deep outside zone, because the safety in the only person responsible for that area of the field (the cornerback will always be underneath the receiver running deep on the outside). If a receiver runs into the deep middle, the middle linebacker is supposed to drop deep enough to cover him. Your statement about a linebacker "never being able to cover it" describes the vulnerability of the Cover 2 -- if the linebacker can't cover it, or at least force a perfect throw, it's a big play, because if an outside receiver holds the safety outside, he'll never get to the middle in time.

Here's what Jerramy Stevens said about the play --

"(My responsibility) was to get down the middle, and if I could run past the linebacker, to keep on running. ... I knew if I got past him, Matt was going to put the ball up. I think we put them in a bind with the formation. It was a great call because we have too much speed on them right there. They were forced to vacate the middle, and all I had to do was outrun the middle linebacker."

This is not correct. I agree with what Stevens said but that's not the way that defense is supposed to play that formation. Ideally, the safety should be in a position to cover whomever breaks free. The safety should be in positon to cover over the top on either the H, Y or Z in an unbalanced foramation like that. The safety plays that in an allignment that will allow him to break on any of the three routes that should be designed for a TD. Corner must do his job and force to the inside on the realase off the LOS. LB must get depth in order to allow the safety to come back and make a play deep. Any defense designed to have a ILB run with a quick slot or TE is destined for failure. The safety, typically a FS on most teams, should be in position to cover the seam first because that is the first and quickest route this formation can burn the Cover2 for a TD on. The deep quarter, ideally moving towards the safety if the CB has done his job, would be next. That route would take longer to develope. The backside post route from the X receiver would be next. The one pattern that is not really accountable for is the square out and up by the slot. That is a tough route for the safety because he has to get all the way over but if that route is thrown, then the CB has to come off his man and support. OLB, if not on a Blitz should also have short responsability to the flat on that if the Z WR is running a go. Either way, Safety does have responsabilty on that seam route. He must stay in position to make a play on that pattern. It uncovers first so it should be the easiest one to determine. Safety, in that situation should be watching the QB the whole way waiting for him to unload the ball and then break to the ball while in the air. Thearetically, there should be time to cover any of the immediate threats to his side of the field if played properly.

 

[AdamJT13]

This is not correct. I agree with what Stevens said but that's not the way that defense is supposed to play that formation.

...

Any defense designed to have a ILB run with a quick slot or TE is destined for failure.

Sorry, but you're still wrong. The version of Cover 2 most often used in the NFL -- including ours -- requires the MLB to drop deep, if necessary.

Here's Colts GM Bill Polian talking about the Cover 2 --

http://www.colts.com/sub.cfm?page=article7&news_id=4490

"The middle linebacker goes back and covers the middle third, so even though we line up in Cover 2, we end up in deep zone with the middle linebacker down the middle of the field, so he has to be able to run to get there. It requires a very good athlete to do it – (Chicago Bears middle linebacker Brian) Urlacher, (Colts middle linebacker) Gary Brackett, (Colts strongside linebacker) Rob Morris. Those are the kinds of players you have to have to do it. Media people make suggestions we have to be bigger. Well, how do you play Tampa 2 if you have a 255-pound linebacker who isn’t Urlacher? He has to get down the middle of the field."

Here's another article about the Cover 2 --

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_38_226/ai_95266912

"The linebackers have to be able to run and possess a feel for the passing game, especially the middle linebacker who has to drop into coverage like a free safety whenever the slot receiver or tight end runs a vertical route."

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Sorry, but you're still wrong. The version of Cover 2 most often used in the NFL -- including ours -- requires the MLB to drop deep, if necessary.

Here's Colts GM Bill Polian talking about the Cover 2 --

http://www.colts.com/sub.cfm?page=article7&news_id=4490

"The middle linebacker goes back and covers the middle third, so even though we line up in Cover 2, we end up in deep zone with the middle linebacker down the middle of the field, so he has to be able to run to get there. It requires a very good athlete to do it – (Chicago Bears middle linebacker Brian) Urlacher, (Colts middle linebacker) Gary Brackett, (Colts strongside linebacker) Rob Morris. Those are the kinds of players you have to have to do it. Media people make suggestions we have to be bigger. Well, how do you play Tampa 2 if you have a 255-pound linebacker who isn’t Urlacher? He has to get down the middle of the field."

Here's another article about the Cover 2 --

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_38_226/ai_95266912

"The linebackers have to be able to run and possess a feel for the passing game, especially the middle linebacker who has to drop into coverage like a free safety whenever the slot receiver or tight end runs a vertical route."

All base cover2 require the LBs to drop deep but there are not a lot of Urlackers out there and we, as a defense know for sure that we don't have one.

I'm sorry, I don't agree. Safety must be in position to prevent the TD in that formation. It's commen sense. What if the H and Y both run deep routes? Then what? Your average ILB/MLB will never ever be able to run with speed from the TE or Slot. You can't line them up 20 yards off the ball and just give up the easy 10 yard first down every play off that formation, especially on first down. You have to play for time enough to let the pass rush get to the QB on the deep routes. There are very few Urlackers in the NFL. Safety must make that play to prevent the TD.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Here is a good article that explains responsbilities in a very simular offensive set we faced against Seattle/Stevens for the TD.

http://www.davesez.com/archives/000892.php