Roy covering Shockey-->>Whose Idea?

[dbair1967]

FYI adam is one of the most vocal roy defenders around. sure he's a cap expert and offers some great insight there, but his ability to spin stats must be accounted for.

not a knock, but his "defend roy" info is sorta like what you'd expect from Art & co at extremeskins... littered with bias.

how is it spinning if its true? the fact is Roy wasnt on Shockey for all those catches...and once again, he only made one big play...most of those catches were short underneath stuff and he got no yards after catch, he was tackled immediately

the gameplan we had worked defensively...they made almost nothing down the field and we got pretty good pressure on a QB who had hardly been sacked all year...we shut down their WR's totally...if the worst thing an offense can do to us the rest of the yr is complete 10 8 yd passes to a TE every week, we're in pretty damn good shape

David

 

[Doomsday101]

TE's are supposed to be a mismatch to linebackers. That's a huge difference in athletic ability. They're not supposed to be a huge mismatch for safeties in athletic ability. If they are, then your safety must be running in the 4.9 range. Who else is supposed to cover a TE? A cornerback?

Most of the top TE will give any SS trouble just as Witten gives teams fits. At 6'5" Witten is bigger than most SS and is faster than a LB. Same with Shockey. Once Dallas ran a LB under Shockey and Williams over the top we held Shockey to 4 catches in the second half. One on one though Shockey will beat any SS in the league including Roy Williams

 

[BehindEnemyLinez]

FYI adam is one of the most vocal roy defenders around. sure he's a cap expert and offers some great insight there, but his ability to spin stats must be accounted for.

not a knock, but his "defend roy" info is sorta like what you'd expect from Art & co at extremeskins... littered with bias.

Well if what he posted is true (about the 4 receptions for 20-odd yards) then there's nothing for him to spin! I didn't pay close enough attention during the game to verify his numbers but I know I didn't see Roy burnt for big yardage while he was in man coverage! Is Roy a different player than he was when Woody was here? Sure, but he's also in a different system and has different responsibilities, IMO.

 

[JPM]

Originally Posted by eduncan22
I've looked at the video on this play...

In all fairness, Reeves did not have primary coverage on that play. He was covering 83.

Roy had the coverage on that play. For some reason, he broke it off and ran to the outside.

OK, that's all that needs to be said. Let's close out this thread and move onto anther one.

Please start from the following:
A) Carp stinks.
B) Stanback stinks.
C) Where is Spencer ?
D) Reeves is great.
E) Newman is overrated cause he doesn't get INT's.

What am I missing here ?

 

[Doomsdayblitz]

For all of you Roy apologists who ask what other SS could have covered Shockey. Here you go:

• Michael Huff, Raiders.
• Sean Jones, Browns-Saw him get an interception while covering Alge Crumpler.
• Troy Polamalu, Steelers.
• Adrian Wilson, Cardinals.
• Jermaine Phillips, Bucs.

I'm sure there are many more, but these just came to mind. We have got to stop making excuses for RW & start looking for his replacement. He is constantly out of position, and will not listen to anyone, not even Ken Hamlin, who is turning out to be a fine addition to this team.

The reason I mentioned Jermaine Phillips last was for two reasons. One, he is a big hitter like Williams, but can still get out and cover. Two, because there is another Phillips in the upcoming draft that would more than fit the bill.

He is playing SS for the 'Canes, & considered by most to be the finest to come along in a long time. His coaches say "He has the body of Sean Taylor, 6-2, 210, and the knowledge & speed of an Ed Reed". Not bad. He is a ball hawk with great range at 4.5, with speed, power, & a nose for the ball.

Consensus Draft Services has him going around the middle of round 1, which is probably where the Brown's pick will end up. I would love to have either him or Malcolm Jenkins, CB, Ohio St.

Either way, we have got to shore up a leaking secondary if we ever expect to beat out the Patriots in the Super Bowl.

 

[chinch]

I believe the gauntlet has officially been thrown.

Not that I need to fight Adam's battles for him, but how do you 'spin' a stat? And the Art comment was a little uncalled for.

whatever. the day Adam comes here with stats showing THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT (where Roy is a liability) is the day this observation will be erased.

the extremeskins mentality has seemingly overtaken this thread and many others where you (as a fellow fan) are bashed if you don't blindly worship and trump up stats making said cowboy look great.

 

[superpunk]

• Sean Jones, Browns-Saw him get an interception while covering Alge Crumpler.

:laugh1:

I'm sold. That is some wicked scouting, there.

 

[chinch]

how is it spinning if its true? the fact is Roy wasnt on Shockey for all those catches...and once again, he only made one big play...most of those catches were short underneath stuff and he got no yards after catch, he was tackled immediately

the gameplan we had worked defensively...they made almost nothing down the field and we got pretty good pressure on a QB who had hardly been sacked all year...we shut down their WR's totally...if the worst thing an offense can do to us the rest of the yr is complete 10 8 yd passes to a TE every week, we're in pretty damn good shape

David

plax is reduced to a gimp on one ankle. it is TOTAL SPIN because yet again certain homers put up nonsense and pretend like our 8th-pick-overall-playing-like-a-fourth-rounder did something meaningful. trying to justify the "probowl" selection which is a farce.

we barely stopped the run (penalties were what stopped it) and we were double-teaming a gimp WR.

come on, that won't win playoff games (which is our goal).

if the Gints hit one long pass yesterday your theory about TE abusing a #8 overall pick all day long would be rendered silly.

put TO (or Moss) on the NYG yesterday and they'd have hung 35+ on us yesterday, even with the great roy williams in coverage and an inferior QB. get real.

 

[Vtwin]

Yet most people in this thread haven't said he sucks. Most people have said he has problems in coverage and he doesn't look like the Roy from his first few seasons.

You can say it over and over but unfortunately "they" will never hear it.The fact that you are 100% correct will not change that.

 

[InmanRoshi]

I can't even say if Roy "sucks" or not, because honestly, because after 3-4 years of the bar constantly and steadily being lowered I don't even know what he does at this point to judge whether or not he even sucks at it.

Here's basically a recap of the last 3 years..

Me: Roy shouldn’t have let that WR get behind him. We’re playing a cover 2 zone, basic football 101, and that’s the first rule for any safety playing cover 2.

RW apologist: That’s not his fault.

Me: What do you mean?|

RW apologist: Roy shouldn’t be asked to play deep coverage on a WR.

Me: He’s an NFL safety. Every team in the league runs the Cover 2, a lot of teams use it as their base defense. That’s what the cover 2 stands for … 2 safeties deep. Every safety is asked to do it.

RW apologists: Maybe so, but Roy isn’t suited for it. It’s unfair to ask him to ever cover a WR.

Me: Well, I guess he’s covering TE’s then?

RW apologists: Covering TE’s? Please. Completely unfair.

Me: Why? Most TE’s outweigh him by 30-40 lbs. Its unfair to ask him to athletically keep up with a player that’s 40 lbs. heavier than he is?

RW apologists: Yep.

Me: That really doesn’t make much sense, and I see other safeties do it quite a lot … but okay. So he can’t cover WR’s and he can’t cover TE’s … we’re running out of positions here. I guess he covers RB’s?

RW: Unless they’re really athletic. That would be unfair.

Me: Ohhhhkay. So what does he do then?

RW Apologists: Well, he’s really great at defending the run.

Me: Okay, well that’s a start. I see, he plays amongst the big boys. Taking on blocks, doing some dirty work, and ….

RW Apologist: Wait, that would be unfair. Those guys outweigh him by a lot. It’s best if he’s just allowed to run free to the football and everyone else take on blocks for him.

Me: So … all the other 10 players on defense cover the guys that he can’t cover and then take on the blocks that he can’t take on?

RW Apolgist: Exactly. He’s really good when you put him in that situation. He can run free to the football and 'stick his head in there'.

Me: And we couldn’t find anyone to have no responsibilities, run free to the football and ‘stick his head in there’ for less than $5 million a year?

RW Apologist: Nope. He’s really something at it. Except he has a little problem with wrapping up.

Me: Ohhhhhhkay. Well, I guess my problem is that our front 7 is really good at stopping the run by themselves. They really don’t need extra help in that area. Besides, in today’s NFL there’s really not many teams that are traditional power running teams. Its going towards more spread offenses and shorter passing routes. We could really use more help in pass coverage in the secondary.

RW Apologist: That may be, but that’s not Roy’s problem.

Me: So what does he do against a good passing team that's no threat to run the ball?

RW Apologist: Hmm … lemme see. Well, he’s a good blitzer.

Me: Okay, so now we’re getting somewhere. How many sacks does he have?

RW Apologist: Zero.

Me. Lemme guess … not his fault?

RW Apologist: Now you’re getting the hang of it.

 

[dboyz]

Adam can chart and defer all he wants. I've seen how the game is played ... if another player is even in the same picture screen, he was supposedly the guy who was supposed to be in coverage or if another guy is credited with the tackling Shockey after he made the catch then he was supposedly the guy who was responsible for coverage. But I'll take Eli's word for who Shockey was matched up on most of the first half.



That's straight out of Eli's mouth (although I'm sure that Roy will say the media invented it). And exactly what Aikman pointed out (as if he knows anything about coverages and offensive game plans. It was obvious. They specifically targeted Roy in pass coverage, and it worked until Wade counter moved. And like I said, thankfully Plaxico is so hobbled right now we could afford to give Roy extra help, and thankfully our offense scores 30+ points a game which is the ultimate cosmetic.

The fact is 4 catches for 23 yards is not all that bad. If someone wants to dispute that go ahead, but if that's what it is, then that's acceptable. On one of those, it looked like a zone with Williams taking away the outside and Bradie James got picked on the play (illegally it looked to me).

I think what Eli was saying was part of their gameplan was to try to get Shockey one-one-one with Roy Williams. I don't doubt that for a second. I'm sure we would take Witten getting one-on-one with most SS's in the NFL. Eli did NOT say "every time Shockey caught a pass, Roy Williams had him man for man." That would be a lot different.

I have to say Inman, you seem to have kind of bad attitude this year, as if we should all be huddled up ready for the season to collapse at any given moment. We're 8-1. Enjoy it. It doesn't happen that often. And the Giants are a good team who came ready to play and we beat them in their own house. Our defense created more pressure in that game than I've seen in a long time.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

I can't even say if Roy "sucks" or not, because honestly, because after 3-4 years of the bar constantly and steadily being lowered I don't even know what he does at this point to judge whether or not he even sucks at it.

Here's basically a recap of the last 3 years..

Me: Roy shouldn’t have let that WR get behind him. We’re playing a cover 2 zone, basic football 101, and that’s the first rule for any safety playing cover 2.

RW apologist: That’s not his fault.

Me: What do you mean?|

RW apologist: Roy shouldn’t be asked to play deep coverage on a WR.

Me: He’s an NFL safety. Every team in the league runs the Cover 2, a lot of teams use it as their base defense. That’s what the cover 2 stands for … 2 safeties deep. Every safety is asked to do it.

RW apologists: Maybe so, but Roy isn’t suited for it. It’s unfair to ask him to ever cover a WR.

Me: Well, I guess he’s covering TE’s then?

RW apologists: Covering TE’s? Please. Completely unfair.

Me: Why? Most TE’s outweigh him by 30-40 lbs. Its unfair to ask him to athletically keep up with a player that’s 40 lbs. heavier than he is?

RW apologists: Yep.

Me: That really doesn’t make much sense, and I see other safeties do it quite a lot … but okay. So he can’t cover WR’s and he can’t cover TE’s … we’re running out of positions here. I guess he covers RB’s?

RW: Unless they’re really athletic. That would be unfair.

Me: Ohhhhkay. So what does he do then?

RW Apologists: Well, he’s really great at defending the run.

Me: Okay, well that’s a start. I see, he plays amongst the big boys. Taking on blocks, doing some dirty work, and ….

RW Apologist: Wait, that would be unfair. Those guys outweigh him by a lot. It’s best if he’s just allowed to run free to the football and everyone else take on blocks for him.

Me: So … all the other 10 players on defense cover the guys that he can’t cover and then take on the blocks that he can’t take on?

RW Apolgist: Exactly. He’s really good when you put him in that situation. He can run free to the football and 'stick his head in there'.

Me: And we couldn’t find anyone to have no responsibilities, run free to the football and ‘stick his head in there’ for less than $5 million a year?

RW Apologist: Nope. He’s really something at it. Except he has a little problem with wrapping up.

Me: Ohhhhhhkay. Well, I guess my problem is that our front 7 is really good at stopping the run by themselves. They really don’t need extra help in that area. Besides, in today’s NFL there’s really not many teams that are traditional power running teams. Its going towards more spread offenses and shorter passing routes. We could really use more help in pass coverage in the secondary.

RW Apologist: That may be, but that’s not Roy’s problem.

Me: So what does he do against a good passing team that's no threat to run the ball?

RW Apologist: Hmm … lemme see. Well, he’s a good blitzer.

Me: Okay, so now we’re getting somewhere. How many sacks does he have?

RW Apologist: Zero.

Me. Lemme guess … not his fault?

RW Apologist: Now you’re getting the hang of it.

Agree or disagree with the premise of your post (and I agree), this was really good stuff. Thanks for the laugh.

 

[Rampage]

I can't even say if Roy "sucks" or not, because honestly, because after 3-4 years of the bar constantly and steadily being lowered I don't even know what he does at this point to judge whether or not he even sucks at it.

Here's basically a recap of the last 3 years..

Me: Roy shouldn’t have let that WR get behind him. We’re playing a cover 2 zone, basic football 101, and that’s the first rule for any safety playing cover 2.

RW apologist: That’s not his fault.

Me: What do you mean?|

RW apologist: Roy shouldn’t be asked to play deep coverage on a WR.

Me: He’s an NFL safety. Every team in the league runs the Cover 2, a lot of teams use it as their base defense. That’s what the cover 2 stands for … 2 safeties deep. Every safety is asked to do it.

RW apologists: Maybe so, but Roy isn’t suited for it. It’s unfair to ask him to ever cover a WR.

Me: Well, I guess he’s covering TE’s then?

RW apologists: Covering TE’s? Please. Completely unfair.

Me: Why? Most TE’s outweigh him by 30-40 lbs. Its unfair to ask him to athletically keep up with a player that’s 40 lbs. heavier than he is?

RW apologists: Yep.

Me: That really doesn’t make much sense, and I see other safeties do it quite a lot … but okay. So he can’t cover WR’s and he can’t cover TE’s … we’re running out of positions here. I guess he covers RB’s?

RW: Unless they’re really athletic. That would be unfair.

Me: Ohhhhkay. So what does he do then?

RW Apologists: Well, he’s really great at defending the run.

Me: Okay, well that’s a start. I see, he plays amongst the big boys. Taking on blocks, doing some dirty work, and ….

RW Apologist: Wait, that would be unfair. Those guys outweigh him by a lot. It’s best if he’s just allowed to run free to the football and everyone else take on blocks for him.

Me: So … all the other 10 players on defense cover the guys that he can’t cover and then take on the blocks that he can’t take on?

RW Apolgist: Exactly. He’s really good when you put him in that situation. He can run free to the football and 'stick his head in there'.

Me: And we couldn’t find anyone to have no responsibilities, run free to the football and ‘stick his head in there’ for less than $5 million a year?

RW Apologist: Nope. He’s really something at it. Except he has a little problem with wrapping up.

Me: Ohhhhhhkay. Well, I guess my problem is that our front 7 is really good at stopping the run by themselves. They really don’t need extra help in that area. Besides, in today’s NFL there’s really not many teams that are traditional power running teams. Its going towards more spread offenses and shorter passing routes. We could really use more help in pass coverage in the secondary.

RW Apologist: That may be, but that’s not Roy’s problem.

Me: So what does he do against a good passing team that's no threat to run the ball?

RW Apologist: Hmm … lemme see. Well, he’s a good blitzer.

Me: Okay, so now we’re getting somewhere. How many sacks does he have?

RW Apologist: Zero.

Me. Lemme guess … not his fault?

RW Apologist: Now you’re getting the hang of it.

that was good and true

 

[Parche]

I don't get this. Roy played very well today. He had issues with Shockey when he was put on an island by himself. I'll ask you this. Is there any SS you'd take in this league one on one against Witten? Witten would win the vast majority against any SS in the league and so does Shockey.

To say that Roy played poorly today is just crazy. He was great against the run. He was sure in his tackling. He never let anyone get behind him. He did what a safety is supposed to do and did it extremely well in a huge game. What the heck game were you guys watching?

Seriously.

Im with you on that, except that Id prefer a weaker tackler and run-stopping for a better performer on passing situations... but thats me.

 

[eduncan22]

Originally Posted by eduncan22
I've looked at the video on this play...

In all fairness, Reeves did not have primary coverage on that play. He was covering 83.

Roy had the coverage on that play. For some reason, he broke it off and ran to the outside.

and you know this how exactly? did you speak with Wade Phillips about this? Maybe it was during that "A****** H**** sux" conversation you have with him from time to time



David

Asked...and answered.

here's a pic to help ya...

http://i89.***BLOCKED***/albums/k215/eduncan22/NYGiantsDallas.jpg

 

[Kilyin]

Asked...and answered.

here's a pic to help ya...

So you judge players' coverage responsibilities by the presnap alignment? Do you know anything about football at all?

Defenses not coordinated by Mike Zimmer often give a presnap look to disguise coverages, and make the offense think they're doing something they're not. Then the defense makes adjustments at or right before the snap. That pic is pretty useless.

 

[eduncan22]

So you judge players' coverage responsibilities by the presnap alignment? Do you know anything about football at all?

Defenses not coordinated by Mike Zimmer often give a presnap look to disguise coverages, and make the offense think they're doing something they're not. Then the defense makes adjustments at or right before the snap. That pic is pretty useless.

Yes.

Yes.

No.

 

[PBJTime]

whatever. the day Adam comes here with stats showing THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ARGUMENT (where Roy is a liability) is the day this observation will be erased.

the extremeskins mentality has seemingly overtaken this thread and many others where you (as a fellow fan) are bashed if you don't blindly worship and trump up stats making said cowboy look great.

How about YOU come up with some stats showing "the other side of the argument."

Are you asking him to argue with himself? I don't get it.

 

[tyke1doe]

Didn't the Cowboys put Burnett on Shockey in the second half?

 

[Doomsday101]

Didn't the Cowboys put Burnett on Shockey in the second half?

Cowboys were running LB's under and the safety over the top.