Roy covering Shockey-->>Whose Idea?

[MichaelWinicki]

I'm sure the plan was to blanket cover the deep threats and make Shockey beat us, which he clearly didn't do.

That's really what it was.

Too many folks are over-reacting to Shocky's 12 catches.

 

[khiladi]

No, he played the coverage pretty well. There's not much to defend on a well thrown pass. Suppose Roy gets in front of him. Shockey has 5 inches on Roy. Sheli could have thrown it up. Roy was in a no-win situation there.

He was in a no-win situation, but he played the coverage pretty well? That makes no sense. I like Roy, but he didn't play the coverage pretty well.

He gave him too much of a cushion. He was too far into the end-zone, and all Shockey had to do was turn-around.

The fact is Wade made adjustments in the second-half, and Roy was playing a lot closer to the line of scrimmage. They also started to double Shockey a lot more. Stats don't tell everything, simply because of the changes in the defensive scheme. This is a team game.

 

[Doomsday101]

That's really what it was.

Too many folks are over-reacting to Shocky's 12 catches.

I agree. We controlled the running game of the Giants and shut down Plax. Shockey had some big catches in the 1st half yet only had 4 in the second half. Personally I expected a hard fought game and that is what it was. After all the Giants knew what was hanging in the balance

 

[khiladi]

Shockey WAS hurting the team in the first-half. It was because of the adjustments that he became ineffective. But this does not necessarily mean it is a knock on Roy. A tight-end match-up on a SS is usually in favor of the tight-end, especially a team that runs the play-action pretty well.

 

[PBJTime]

He was in a no-win situation, but he played the coverage pretty well? That makes no sense. I like Roy, but he didn't play the coverage pretty well.

He gave him too much of a cushion. He was too far into the end-zone, and all Shockey had to do was turn-around.

The fact is Wade made adjustments in the second-half, and Roy was playing a lot closer to the line of scrimmage. They also started to double Shockey a lot more. Stats don't tell everything, simply because of the changes in the defensive scheme. This is a team game.

Please don't be dense. He was in a no-win situation, but played as well as could be expected for anybody with that disadvantage. There, clear enough for you. He could have been beat by a good pass no matter where he was, just as any SS would have against a top five TE with that much of a size advantage.

What you don't seem to get is a good TE will have an advantage over a great SS the majority of the time if he is isolated on the SS. As it was said before, that is simply a mismatch. Roy didn't let Shockey get a huge amount of YAC and was a big reason why we were able to shut down Buress.

And here's the part where people start to say that stats don't tell the story, blah, blah, blah. So, I get the feeling I'm supposed to ignore the stats and just go off of what the haters well-trained eyes tell them.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Please tell us specifically what numbers you dispute from Adam?

Adam can chart and defer all he wants. I've seen how the game is played ... if another player is even in the same picture screen, he was supposedly the guy who was supposed to be in coverage or if another guy is credited with the tackling Shockey after he made the catch then he was supposedly the guy who was responsible for coverage. But I'll take Eli's word for who Shockey was matched up on most of the first half.

"We tried to move him [Shockey] around, put him outside and get the matchup with him on Roy Williams," Manning said of the Cowboys safety. "We had a good plan. You have to do what the defense is giving you and what they were doing was opening up some routes to Shockey."

That's straight out of Eli's mouth (although I'm sure that Roy will say the media invented it). And exactly what Aikman pointed out (as if he knows anything about coverages and offensive game plans. It was obvious. They specifically targeted Roy in pass coverage, and it worked until Wade counter moved. And like I said, thankfully Plaxico is so hobbled right now we could afford to give Roy extra help, and thankfully our offense scores 30+ points a game which is the ultimate cosmetic.

 

[khiladi]

Please don't be dense. He was in a no-win situation, but played as well as could be expected for anybody with that disadvantage. There, clear enough for you. He could have been beat by a good pass no matter where he was, just as any SS would have against a top five TE with that much of a size advantage.

No, he played poorly on that play. Your argument is that in the match-up between a TE and SS, there is no way Roy could have won. This essentially means that no matter what, Roy is divested of any blame in coverage.

That is total B.S. If Roy had played closer to Shockey, which any SS can do, and made Shockey work for the ball, before Shockey ran plus 10 yards into the end-zone untouched, you would have a case. But he did not.. Shockey ran untouched into the end-zone, and than simply turned around, and Eli made an easy pass.

What you don't seem to get is a good TE will have an advantage over a great SS the majority of the time if he is isolated on the SS. As it was said before, that is simply a mismatch.

Absolutely not. Roy, in his first two years, use to scare the living hell out Shockey and make him ineffective. I recognize that Roy has coverage abilities, so I don't buy into this hype that it is a mismatch for Roy. I think Roy is playing slower, because he is a lot bigger than his first two seasons, when he was flying all over the place.

Roy didn't let Shockey get a huge amount of YAC and was a big reason why we were able to shut down Buress.

The fact is Wade made defensive adjustments to counteract what the Giants were doing in the first half with Shockey. Shockey was 3 passes away from his record mark in the FIRST-HALF. It is obvious he was effective, considering the game was tied by half-time.

And they still silenced Burress in the SECOND-HALF, when Wade made adjustments to counteract the effectiveness of Shockey.

 

[jimmy40]

I'm with Rosh. For the money we are paying Roy, he needs to be making big plays for us. He was OK yesterday, but heck, at least 3-4 of his tackles were on Shock. The Roy we saw his 1st few seasons hasn't been around this year.

He also got bailed out on the Snee holding call because he was out of position on that TD run.

Snee has to feel like an idiot for that, hell he kept RW from running off the field. The holding actually helped RW not look like a complete moron.

 

[khiladi]

The announcers were clear that Wade said he was going to double Shokcey after the first half. This essentially means that Wade adjusted the game-plan.

So people can point out the statistics all they want, but the reason Shockey became ineffective was because of the coaching, not because Roy 'shut-down' Shockey...

 

[Doomsday101]

The announcers were clear that Wade said he was going to double Shokcey after the first half. This essentially means that Wade adjusted the game-plan.

So people can point out the statistics all they want, but the reason Shockey became ineffective was because of the coaching, not because Roy 'shut-down' Shockey...

I agree. However I think Shockey is an outstanding TE and just like Witten if a team wants to use a strong safety to cover Witten then great we will attack that SS all day long and I don't care who the SS is.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

The announcers were clear that Wade said he was going to double Shokcey after the first half. This essentially means that Wade adjusted the game-plan.

So people can point out the statistics all they want, but the reason Shockey became ineffective was because of the coaching, not because Roy 'shut-down' Shockey...

Look folks, nobody is saying get rid of Roy Williams and that he is not a good players, at least I hope that is not people are saying.

I am personally looking at the bigger picture and I believe it will be harder and harder to cover up his weaknesses as the opponents get better as we make our Playoff Run.

Plaxico was essentially playing on with a bad leg and Armani Toomer is not the big play guy he use to be so we had the luxury of doubling Jeremy Shockey.

Roy Williams is a nice player but I would love to see him work on his coverage skills.

- Mike G.

 

[sacase]

Adam can chart and defer all he wants. I've seen how the game is played ... if another player is even in the same picture screen, he was supposedly the guy who was supposed to be in coverage.

There was no question that Roy was responsible for the majority of the coverage on Shockey. It was the Giants entire gameplan.



That's straight out of Eli's mouth (although I'm sure that Roy will say the media invented it). They specifically targeted Roy in pass coverage, and it worked until Wade counter moved. And like I said, thankfully Plaxico is so hobbled right now we could afford to give Roy extra help, and thankfully our offense scores 30+ points a game which is the ultimate cosmetic.

Wow that is really weak. So you think if Roy is anywhere in the picture then its his fault. LOL Sad. Roy allowed 4 catches all under 10 yards and you think he played bad? What SS in the league can hold Witten to numbers like that? The fact of the matter is a good TE is a mismatch for almost any LB or Safety, Free or Strong. RW was not beat deep. He had good coverage on the TD pass. He is giving a cushion because that is the defense called by the coaches, you act like he gets to choose what type of coverage he is going to play. If you noticed when there was a run and he came up the play stopped right there, period. RW is having a good season and guess what, he doesn't have to play like he did as a rookie since the team around him is much better.

 

[khiladi]

I agree. However I think Shockey is an outstanding TE and just like Witten if a team wants to use a strong safety to cover Witten then great we will attack that SS all day long and I don't care who the SS is.

No doubt, but people are absolving Roy of blame, and pretending like it was Roy that made Shockey ineffective.

He seems awkward to me in coverage, because he looks much bigger than he use to be. Even Woodson says Roy has trouble with his hips, and muscle mass isn't going to help the issue. Look at the clips from his rookie season, and compare them to how he MOVES now. And I'm simply talking about how he moves, nothing else. To me it is about how he moved in the open-field that was the key distinction between his early years and his later years. Roy clearly displayed enormous potential in COVERAGE his first two seasons.

I believe that if Roy was playing at the weight he was in his first two seasons, Roy would be way more successful in coverage.

 

[Baileyneverfailey]

We played Shockey loose like we did so Burress didn't score 3 TDs on us again, which we neutralized him. I'll give Shockey his 12 catches every time as long as I know they're only going to score 20 or less.

Besides, Westbrook caught 14 passes on us, it's how many TDs you give up, not catches.

 

[superpunk]

Look folks, nobody is saying get rid of Roy Williams and that he is not a good players, at least I hope that is not people are saying.

I am personally looking at the bigger picture and I believe it will be harder and harder to cover up his weaknesses as the opponents get better as we make our Playoff Run.

Plaxico was essentially playing on with a bad leg and Armani Toomer is not the big play guy he use to be so we had the luxury of doubling Jeremy Shockey.

Roy Williams is a nice player but I would love to see him work on his coverage skills.

- Mike G.

Two questions, just in regards to his coverage skills as a SS.

Do you think there is any SS in the league that could hang with Shockey one on one, 10 yards off the LOS? That's what we wanted Roy to do. Tough position to be put in, but we clearly wanted to limit Shockey's YAC, and neutralize Burress, and that was accomplished flawlessly.

Do you think the coaching staff put him 1 on 1 on one of the most gifted TEs in the league because they have no faith in his coverage skills? That's affirmation to me. They didn't say - who is our worst coverage safety? Let's iso him on Shockey. If anyone believes they did, that person also must believe that the coaching staff is filled with imbeciles, and 8-1 kind of refutes that.

 

[InmanRoshi]

TE's are supposed to be a mismatch to linebackers. That's a huge difference in athletic ability. They're not supposed to be a huge mismatch for safeties in athletic ability. If they are, then your safety must be running in the 4.9 range. Who else is supposed to cover a TE? A cornerback?

 

[landryscorner]

original OP here, First, I would like to say to all the posters in "denial" about ROy need to stop the "dumb thread" "stupid Post" statements, this is a thread were allowed to post anything we want that we saw in the game that needs

clarification from us fans giving our point of views. yes we are not professional analysts but we can all agree that to a certain degree we can evaluate players peformances just like anyone else.

the reason I started this thread is because i believe what the OC's are doing is exploiting our first weakness in our defense and doing it early for one reason and one reason only. They know we are a slow starting offense, and by getting a jump early on us they feel its the only way they can keep up

with us in the second half. I dont hate ROY, he has been a good player for us, I think when he had Woody back there and he weighed less he was an Outstanding player, but now I see him as an average SS, saying that any good TE can always get open an a good SS is total BS. an outstanding SS

can and will win those battles. Guess you guys won't realize how much Roy has dropped off until he costs us a big game like the NFC championship or the SB, until then I hope Phillips and the DC have the cojones to man up to ROy

and try to deceiptively hide his inconsistent plays with some help from other DB's.

 

[khiladi]

He is giving a cushion because that is the defense called by the coaches, you act like he gets to choose what type of coverage he is going to play. If you noticed when there was a run and he came up the play stopped right there, period. RW is having a good season and guess what, he doesn't have to play like he did as a rookie since the team around him is much better.

So, once again, Roy is divested of all blame.

If you argue this, than it is the same coaches that adjusted the game plan to move Roy closer to the line of scrimmage, so he could attack the runner and make some hits. Using the same logic, they realized that having Roy in those type of situations is not a good idea.

 

[Doomsday101]

No doubt, but people are absolving Roy of blame, and pretending like it was Roy that made Shockey ineffective. He seems awkward to me in coverage, because he looks much bigger than he use to be. Even Woodson says Roy has trouble with his hips, and muscle mass isn't going to help the issue. Look at the clips from hsi rookie season, and compare them to how he MOVES now. And I'm simply talking about how he moves, nothing else.

I believe that if Roy was playing at the weight he was in his first two seasons, Roy would be way more successful in coverage.

I don't think Roy is the best cover man but as a SS I think he does a good job for this team. Most SS are not the greatest cover men but if you look at some key plays where Roy brought down Shockey before getting a 1st down forcing the giants to punt. I don't see anyone giving credit for the good plays. The one TD to shockey Roy was trying to take the inside slant away and the ball is thrown to the backside of Shockey hip (watch the replay) there was no way Roy was going to make the play nor was there any way another SS would have made the play. It was a good play by Shockey and the G-men but it was only 1 play.

 

[aikemirv]

Look folks, nobody is saying get rid of Roy Williams and that he is not a good players, at least I hope that is not people are saying.

I am personally looking at the bigger picture and I believe it will be harder and harder to cover up his weaknesses as the opponents get better as we make our Playoff Run.

Plaxico was essentially playing on with a bad leg and Armani Toomer is not the big play guy he use to be so we had the luxury of doubling Jeremy Shockey.

Roy Williams is a nice player but I would love to see him work on his coverage skills.

- Mike G.

Sorry, but Plax has been torching the NFL all year with that bum ankle and he was actualy good enough to practice on it this week. That is not an argument at all.