Roy covering Shockey-->>Whose Idea?

[khiladi]

So you heard those quotes but you didn't hear Aikman say that it was good coverage but a better throw on Shockey's TD so Roy wouldn't be able to knock it away?

What part of 8 yards don't you understand? According to Adam, Roy met him at the "goal-line", and that I dispute. Does Shockey have speed like the flash? So what your saying is that, in that one-one-one situation, Shockey can run 8 yards faster than Roy can run a measly few yards to meet him at the goal-line? So in order to defend Roy's all-world coverage abilities, you would have to argue that he's incredibly slow at responding to an average speed TE... a logical absurdity...

Where was Roy in the play, when he met him at the goal-line, for it to be good coverage?

 

[AdamJT13]

Please... I saw the same game. Let us assume that Roy caught Sjhockey right at the goal-line. The TD pass was a TD pass for 8 yards, meaning Shockey ran at least 8 yards, turned around and caught a ball straight in his chest, or in your words 'back shoulder'. Whoopity-doo, according to you, Roy caught Shockey 8 yards down the field, right at the 'goal-line'...

This coupled by the fact that Roy was behind Shockey, and had no way of making the play. Whether it was at Shockey's "back shoulder", which it really wasn't, or his abdomen or his groin, he would have made the catch, because Roy had absolutely no position on him, i.e. he was behind Roy.

What should Roy have done, let Shockey get behind him? Watch any defensive back playing man-to-man in the end zone, and they usually try to stay right on the guy's hip. If they play in front of him, it's too easy to lose him.

Yeah, it wasn't a difficult pass.

So NFL quarterbacks always throw the ball precisely where they want to throw it?

According to SI game stats, he got 0 YAC.

SI's stats for YAC aren't updated early in the week. They also list Terrell Owens for 0 YAC and Patrick Crayton for 0 YAC, and they obviously had YAC. Check back later in the week.

I have a copy of the play-by-play sheet they get YAC stats from, and Shockey had YAC on seven different catches (and on one of them, they shorted Shockey's YAC by 6 yards -- unless they correct it after noticing in their game review that with 9:33 left in the second quarter, Shockey actually caught the ball behind the line of scrimmage and not 4 yards past the line of scrimmage, as was recorded).

Your presenting it like Roy is absolutely flawless in coverage, to the point that you would argue that the pass of Eli Manning was 'incredibly' difficult and was to the 'back shoulder'.

I've never said Roy was "absolutely flawless" in coverage. But it's ridiculous for people to bash Roy because Shockey had a big game when Roy wasn't responsible for most of his catches. And there's a difference between bad coverage and good coverage. Just because a pass was caught, it doesn't mean it was bad coverage. You can have good coverage and get beaten by a good throw and catch.

 

[GoBigD]

wish someone would lock this topic already RW 4 MVP

 

[dallasfaniac]

What part of 8 yards don't you understand? According to Adam, Roy met him at the "goal-line", and that I dispute. Does Shockey have speed like the flash? So what your saying is that, in that one-one-one situation, Shockey can run 8 yards faster than Roy can run a measly few yards to meet him at the goal-line? So in order to defend Roy's all=world coverage abilities, your argue that he's incredibly slow at responding to an average speed TE...

Where was Roy in the play, when he met him at the goal-line, for it to be good coverage?

Are you telling me that it was good coverage? Aikman was flat-out wrong on his comment.

You didn't watch the game as close as you think then because Roy did meet him at the goalline. The play started from the 8 1/2 yard line with Roy at about the 2. James is lined up at the 4. Shockey is lined up wide and Mathews next to the tackle. The ball is snapped, Mathews runs down the field and actually initiates contact with James well beyond 5 yards of scrimmage and pushes him toward the middle of the field. Roy meets Shockey at the goalline and takes the inside angle because Shockey cuts the center of the field and then Manning throws it towards Shockey's outside shoulder. Sure, Roy could have lined up at the line of scrimmage and tried bumping Shockey, but then they would have dropped Mathews at about the five and Shockey would have cut under for the probable TD anyway.

 

[khiladi]

What should Roy have done, let Shockey get behind him? Watch any defensive back playing man-to-man in the end zone, and they usually try to stay right on the guy's hip. If they play in front of him, it's too easy to lose him.

Did you even read what I stated previously? I stated that he gave him way too much of a cushion, not that he should have given Shockey no cushion. He gave him cushion to the point that Shockey ran unimpeded into the end-zone, and he simply had to turn around and catch a ball.

And yes, it would have been better if he forced Shockey to make a catch behind him, because that would mean Eli would have to throw it over defender. If Roy forced him inside, it could have meant help. If Roy forced him outside, he would have the sideline to push him out, or Eli has to make a more difficult sideline throw.

So NFL quarterbacks always throw the ball precisely where they want to throw it?

Considering they are NFL QBs, I would think that they could hit a guy 8 yards down the field accurately the majority of the time, if the defender is standing behind the receiver.

I've never said Roy was "absolutely flawless" in coverage. But it's ridiculous for people to bash Roy because Shockey had a big game when Roy wasn't responsible for most of his catches. And there's a difference between bad coverage and good coverage. Just because a pass was caught, it doesn't mean it was bad coverage. You can have good coverage and get beaten by a good throw and catch.

Or it oculd just be bad coverage. It is quite clear Shockey was having a great game, UNTIL the second half, when Wade said he was going to double Shockey. They adjusted for him.

And I was not even bashing Roy? I said I had two problems with Roy, one in this game in particular. The TD pass, and I think he needs to lose some of his muscle mass, because he looks more awkward running now, than his first two years. He played incredibly well the second half, and he was all over the place when playing close to the line of scrimmage.

 

[AdamJT13]

According to Adam, Roy met him at the "goal-line", and that I dispute.

Do you dispute this photo, too?

The technique used by Roy was the exact same technique used by Newman against Burress the next time the Giants got in the red zone.

Here's Newman (top right corner) at the goal line with Burress approaching (he's the receiver in the top right, under the "GB") --

They both go off-camera as Manning drops back, but you can see Newman's position as the ball is in the air to Shockey (who is being covered over the middle by Bradie James). Newman and Burress are in the upper right, under the word "FINAL" --

 

[khiladi]

You didn't watch the game as close as you think then because Roy did meet him at the goalline. The play started from the 8 1/2 yard line with Roy at about the 2. James is lined up at the 4. Shockey is lined up wide and Mathews next to the tackle. The ball is snapped, Mathews runs down the field and actually initiates contact with James well beyond 5 yards of scrimmage and pushes him toward the middle of the field. Roy meets Shockey at the goalline and takes the inside angle because Shockey cuts the center of the field and then Manning throws it towards Shockey's outside shoulder. Sure, Roy could have lined up at the line of scrimmage and tried bumping Shockey, but then they would have dropped Mathews at about the five and Shockey would have cut under for the probable TD anyway.

What did I say? Even if Roy met him at the goal-line, what does that mean for the argument? Shockey ran 8 yards into the end-zone, and Roy met him there... How far back in coverage was Roy than? Did he give him an even larger cushion of 8 yards? And no, Roy didn't take the inside angle... he was clearly behind Shockey, and if inside angle, you mean closer to SHockey's left arm than his right and still behind him, you are right...

I love the last line... what it basically amounts to is that no matter what, Shockey would have scored... so it can't be Roy's fault..

 

[khiladi]

Do you dispute this photo, too?

That is nice an all, but where is the ball? And how far was Shockey when he made the break? Show me the photo of the catch? Then we can see if Roy was anywhere 'inside' of Shockey, when he caught the ball.

Here's Newman (top right corner) at the goal line with Burress approaching (he's the receiver in the top right, under the "GB") --

And that tells me what? That by the time Eli Manning threw the ball, and was in mid-air, Plaxico happened to be in front of Newman, where there was a deep safety who was obviously there to help? Look at Eli's first option in the play. Where was he looking? To the side of Newman, meaning it wasn't there.

 

[NickZepp]

I can only thing of 1 or 2 plays where Shockey beat us real deep. Most of his completions were short. And one of the deep balls was in pretty decent double coverage. And it was after a stupid penalty call on Barnett. Roy did a good job of making sure he was down even if he made catches. You can't let him catch it and run deep.

We probably don't have anyone that can really cover Shockey but we kept him in check for the most part.

 

[dallasfaniac]

What did I say? Even if Roy met him at the goal-line, what does that mean for the argument? Shockey ran 8 yards into the end-zone, and Roy met him there... How far back in coverage was Roy than? Did he give him an even larger cushion of 8 yards? And no, Roy didn't take the inside angle... he was clearly behind Shockey, and if inside angle, you mean closer to SHockey's left arm than his right and still behind him, you are right...

I love the last line... what it basically amounts to is that no matter what, Shockey would have scored... so it can't be Roy's fault..

Look over the photos and video highlights and then come back with an argument. You said Roy didn't meet him at the goalline, which is clear as day that he did. He gave the exact same cushion that Newman would have done with a TE lined up on that side. If he had pressed, the TE would sit down around the 3, Shockey would have cut it in under Mathews and force Roy and Brady to pass off their responsibilities or risk Roy getting tangled up with James and Mathews and Shockey being uncovered. It's the same thing as a pick play, but the offensive player does not initiate contact making it legal. The way it was, there should have been offensive pass interference on Mathews, but it wasn't called.

 

[aikemirv]

That is nice an all, but where is the ball? And how far was Shockey when he made the break? Show me the photo of the catch? Then we can see if Roy was anywhere 'inside' of Shockey, when he caught the ball.




And that tells me what? That by the time Eli Manning threw the ball, and was in mid-air, Plaxico happened to be in front of Newman, where there was a deep safety who was obviously there to help? Look at Eli's first option in the play. Where was he looking? To the side of Newman, meaning it wasn't there.

Just concede already, you are just looking foolish now.

 

[thekavorka]

Just wondering. What would be the best way to defend the offense in that situation on that play?

If we play them again, and both teams run the exact same play, how would you prevent the TD?

 

[Baileyneverfailey]

News flash: Good tight ends, which Shockey is one of, are supposed to beat one on one coverage against a safety. Witten would beat Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed, Bob Sanders, Sean Taylor, Brian Dawkins, and every other safety one on one, but we wouldn't be calling them garbage, would we?

Am I mistaken, or did the Giants only score 20 points? Oh okay, then I guess our defense played well enough, eh?

 

[zrinkill]

News flash: Good tight ends, which Shockey is one of, are supposed to beat one on one coverage against a safety. Witten would beat Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed, Bob Sanders, Sean Taylor, Brian Dawkins, and every other safety one on one, but we wouldn't be calling them garbage, would we?

Am I mistaken, or did the Giants only score 20 points? Oh okay, then I guess our defense played well enough, eh?

I have been saying this since Sunday ..... but the RW haters are relentless in their agenda.

 

[aikemirv]

Just wondering. What would be the best way to defend the offense in that situation on that play?

If we play them again, and both teams run the exact same play, how would you prevent the TD?

I don't know what the whole formation was on that play but I would think you have to have some underneath midlle help on RW side.

 

[khiladi]

Look over the photos and video highlights and then come back with an argument. You said Roy didn't meet him at the goalline, which is clear as day that he did. He gave the exact same cushion that Newman would have done with a TE lined up on that side. If he had pressed, the TE would sit down around the 3, Shockey would have cut it in under Mathews and force Roy and Brady to pass off their responsibilities or risk Roy getting tangled up with James and Mathews and Shockey being uncovered. It's the same thing as a pick play, but the offensive player does not initiate contact making it legal. The way it was, there should have been offensive pass interference on Mathews, but it wasn't called.

Before we discuss any further, who is talking about playing press coverage? Did I say Roy should have played press coverage?

And, one better, before we do that, can you explain to me, just because I am uninformed, if the breaking speed of Roy Williams is any way equivalent to the breaking speed of Terrance Newman?

 

[sacase]

Did you even read what I stated previously? I stated that he gave him way too much of a cushion, not that he should have given Shockey no cushion. He gave him cushion to the point that Shockey ran unimpeded into the end-zone, and he simply had to turn around and catch a ball.

And yes, it would have been better if he forced Shockey to make a catch behind him, because that would mean Eli would have to throw it over defender. If Roy forced him inside, it could have meant help. If Roy forced him outside, he would have the sideline to push him out, or Eli has to make a more difficult sideline throw.



Considering they are NFL QBs, I would think that they could hit a guy 8 yards down the field accurately the majority of the time, if the defender is standing behind the receiver.



Or it oculd just be bad coverage. It is quite clear Shockey was having a great game, UNTIL the second half, when Wade said he was going to double Shockey. They adjusted for him.

And I was not even bashing Roy? I said I had two problems with Roy, one in this game in particular. The TD pass, and I think he needs to lose some of his muscle mass, because he looks more awkward running now, than his first two years. He played incredibly well the second half, and he was all over the place when playing close to the line of scrimmage.

Ask and you shall recieve.

 

[khiladi]

Ask and you shall recieve.

I don't get what your trying to say...

I stated that he gave him WAY TOO much of a cushion, NOT that he should have given Shockey NO cushion.

It is quite clear that in this very sentence I said Roy gave him TOO much cushion, and not that Roy should have played him in press coverage. And to substantiate my point even further regarding too much cushion. On that TD play to Shockey, look at where the 1st down marker is. At the 4 yard line.

 

[aikemirv]

Before we discuss any further, who is talking about playing press coverage? Did I say Roy should have played press coverage?

And, one better, before we do that, can you explain to me, just because I am uninformed, if the breaking speed of Roy Williams is any way equivalent to the breaking speed of Terrance Newman?

Who is faster? Shockey or Williams

Who is faster? Newman or Buress?

Now, lets just say that possibly Shockey is faster than Williams and we know Newman is faster than Buress.

Who should give a bigger cushion - Roy should , but yet Newman is giving a bigger cushion than Roy in those pictures and he has inside and outside help. Roy has no help and yet is right there when the ball arrives.

I think your issue should be with the scheme, rather than with RW.

 

[dallasfaniac]

Before we discuss any further, who is talking about playing press coverage? Did I say Roy should have played press coverage?

And, one better, before we do that, can you explain to me, just because I am uninformed, if the breaking speed of Roy Williams is any way equivalent to the breaking speed of Terrance Newman?

Sacase pointed it out so I won't discuss that point.

You're not going to get me to argue that Newman has better breaking speed, however in such a short area, would Newman have been able to bring down Shockey before he got into the endzone? Exactly how much of a cushion should Roy have given him? 6 yards, 5 yards, 4 yards?