RUMOR: Norm Hitzges: Chiefs interested in trading LJ to Cowboys?

[ABQCOWBOY]

The Chiefs OL last year wasn't good.

Roaf was already retired. Shields was voted into the pro bowl, but was on his last legs (and retired this off season). Their other 2005 starting OT missed half the season. They were so hard up that they signed Kyle Turley ... and then he got hurt.

And to make matters worse, once Trent Green got hurt, opposing defenses could load up against the run.

Fair enough. I posted the production stats earlier between LJ and MB/JJ. Do you see enough cause to pay so much more money for the producion of LJ as opposed to MB and JJ?

 

[LatinMind]

Your avoiding the fact that Barber and Jones, together produced at about the same consistancy as did Johnson last year for a cheaper price tag. Why should we trade picks, talent and spend more money to get what we already have?

because LJ in dallas would be that much better then both combined. KC's offense is so inferior to Dallas' thats its not even arguable. they're OL is better too.

last yr, roaf retired, and will shields was so hurt, and done, that he retired this yr. not to mention they had jordan black, and kyle turley as tackles.

 

[Doomsday101]

Emmitt smith played for 15 seasons at a very high level. He rushed for 18355 yards and 164 TDs. Are you saying that you see Larry Johnson doing that?

No I'm not comparing Emmitt or any other back to LJ what I'm saying is LJ is a great RB in his own right and he has put up elite RB numbers and that I respect and that is what I would love to have on this team. I don't care about having a couple of avg RB not if I can get one of the leagues current best RB out there and that is what LJ is right now one of the best in the league today and has the numbers to back that up.

 

[LatinMind]

Fair enough. I posted the production stats earlier between LJ and MB/JJ. Do you see enough cause to pay so much more money for the producion of LJ as opposed to MB and JJ?

you cant compare what LJ did in KC's offense and what he could do in dallas' because dallas' offense is so much better. but, saying all that. LJ is better then julius and barber combined.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

because LJ in dallas would be that much better then both combined. KC's offense is so inferior to Dallas' thats its not even arguable. they're OL is better too.

last yr, roaf retired, and will shields was so hurt, and done, that he retired this yr. not to mention they had jordan black, and kyle turley as tackles.

This is a repost but again, is the difference in production enough to justify the substantial cost difference. Also, historically, what have RBs done after posting 400 carry seasons? Have they increased output, sustained or declined?

 

[Doomsday101]

because LJ in dallas would be that much better then both combined. KC's offense is so inferior to Dallas' thats its not even arguable. they're OL is better too.

last yr, roaf retired, and will shields was so hurt, and done, that he retired this yr. not to mention they had jordan black, and kyle turley as tackles.

Heck KC had to talk Shields out of retirement as he was set to go but because of problems KC was having heading into camp along the OL Shields stayed on but was not close what he was in the past.

 

[peplaw06]

I would consider LJ for MB3 or JJ and a second rounder next year. LJ only has 2 full NFL seasons of wear on him. The last season and a half was substantially more wear than he had in prior years with Priest in front of him.

So he's 29, but I consider his age to be much like TNew's... not indicative of how much wear the typical guy their age has.

But RBs don't draw first rounders any more, much less a serviceable RB and a First Rounder.

 

[dbair1967]

This sounded completely ridiculous but Norm made it sound like the rumor had some weight... which hopefully it doesn't.

He was just talking on the radio about how the Chiefs are interested in trading Larry Johnson (who's in his contract year, I believe) to the Cowboys for Marion Barber and one of our first round picks.

I don't know about you, but I wasn't a fan of the idea.

horrible idea...cant imagine there is any truth to this

Jones isnt this stupid

David

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

No I'm not comparing Emmitt or any other back to LJ what I'm saying is LJ is a great RB in his own right and he has put up elite RB numbers and that I respect and that is what I would love to have on this team. I don't care about having a couple of avg RB not if I can get one of the leagues current best RB out there and that is what LJ is right now one of the best in the league today and has the numbers to back that up.

To me, the numbers just don't justify the difference in cost. If LJ were a back like Emmitt, then maybe I would consider it but I don't think he is so to me, it's not worth the money you have to pay. I'd rather have two guys who post simular numbers for a lot less money.

 

[dbair1967]

I couldnt agree more

David

 

[slick325]

Tell me why the price for him should be higher than the price the Rams paid for Faulk.

I am really interested in this angle but folks seem to be avoiding it.

You see, I consider that a "cost" to the team too.

"Price" for LJ? Are you referring to money or what Dallas would have to give up (potential high draft choice and a top reserve)?

I'll address both.

Monetary "Price"
The amount of money LJ is seeking in comparison to what Faulk sought in the late '90's is all relative. The league signed a new TV contract and is making more revenue, teams now understand how to manage their cap and there is more cap money available thus the current wave of players are breaking the bank. (See: Leonard Davis, Derrick Dockery, Nate Clements, E. Steinbach and Dielman). In the late '90's the contract that Marshall sought and was paid by the Rams made him one of the top paid players at his position if not the top paid RB at the time (7yrs $45.15mil). As of August 5, 1999, his contract was "by far the biggest contract in Rams' history...." according to John Shaw Rams Team President at the time. That is exactly what LJ seeks except now the top RB makes tons more than what he made in the late '90's.

Potential High Draft Choice AND a Top Reserve "Price"
The Rams got Marshall for a 2nd round pick and a 5th round pick. In hindsight that was highway robbery. Just like when Dallas fleeced Minnesota. The NFL is a league where teams attempt to not get burned like another team did years prior thus the asking price will be higher the second time around. The Chiefs don't want to be sitting there looking like the Colts did after they traded Faulk in April 1999 only to watch he and Kurt Warner hoist the Lombardi Trophy that same season. The Chiefs will ask for the kitchen sink if they could but that doesn't mean that is the final request for consideration. They may very well end up having to settle for a conditional 2nd that can become a 1st if LJ meets certain incentives and a second day pick.

As I stated, I wouldn't commit to the trade as presented (Cleveland's pick plus MBIII) but if they came down like I suspect they may have to, I would consider it.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

you cant compare what LJ did in KC's offense and what he could do in dallas' because dallas' offense is so much better. but, saying all that. LJ is better then julius and barber combined.

Based off last years statistical information, that's not true.

 

[iceberg]

It's not like there would be a clause in his contract requiring 400 carries a season. He wouldn't do that if he came here.

just because you stuck your hand in 1 fire and didn't get burned doesn't mean fire doesn't burn eventually.

 

[ZeroClub]

Fair enough. I posted the production stats earlier between LJ and MB/JJ. Do you see enough cause to pay so much more money for the producion of LJ as opposed to MB and JJ?

Stats, smatts!

Seriously, he's a far superior to MBIII or JJ. It isn't even close. He's a franchise back.

And he's exactly the right kind of back to complement the kind of defense that Phillips is going to have on the field. The Cowboys offense would be capable of those long, clock draining scoring drives. The Cowboys defense would be fresh, strike like a cobra against the pressing opposition, ... and you know how that turns out.

LJ is the kind of back who makes that possible.

 

[Doomsday101]

To me, the numbers just don't justify the difference in cost. If LJ were a back like Emmitt, then maybe I would consider it but I don't think he is so to me, it's not worth the money you have to pay. I'd rather have two guys who post simular numbers for a lot less money.

It takes 2 of our backs to equal what Johnson can do, that is not a contest that is the difference between a dominate RB and an avg. RB. Dallas faced this in the past when we had a couple of avg back but jumped at getting TD because getting a dominate RB is difficult and makes such a big impact for the offense. Before you ask no I'm not comparing LJ with TD but I do consider them both dominate RB capable of taking over a game and causing problems for the defense. Right now I have to get going but I enjoyed the conversation.

 

[LatinMind]

This is a repost but again, is the difference in production enough to justify the substantial cost difference. Also, historically, what have RBs done after posting 400 carry seasons? Have they increased output, sustained or declined?

but any deal the cowboys would sign him to, would be less them mcfaddens rookie contract. and dallas is going to lose julius next yr anyways. so whats the big deal?

i dont go squarely on rushing attmepts. i look at tomlinsons numbers. he's numbers are almost exacty the same thru the last 25 games as johnson. and neither is showing signs of fading. the good players can do it over the long haul.

you got this frame of thinking that dallas will be overusing him like the cheifs did. theres a difference. dallas actually has weapons, as were to the cheifs didnt.

you're trying to compare him in KC's offense as opposed to viewing him in dallas offense. in dallas offense he would be around 300-330 carries, and will create more mismatches then julius and barber combined.

 

[Hostile]

"Price" for LJ? Are you referring to money or what Dallas would have to give up (potential high draft choice and a top reserve)?

I'll address both.

Monetary "Price"
The amount of money LJ is seeking in comparison to what Faulk sought in the late '90's is all relative. The league signed a new TV contract and is making more revenue, teams now understand how to manage their cap and there is more cap money available thus the current wave of players are breaking the bank. (See: Leonard Davis, Derrick Dockery, Nate Clements, E. Steinbach and Dielman). In the late '90's the contract that Marshall sought and was paid by the Rams made him one of the top paid players at his position if not the top paid RB at the time (7yrs $45.15mil). As of August 5, 1999, his contract was "by far the biggest contract in Rams' history...." according to John Shaw Rams Team President at the time. That is exactly what LJ seeks except now the top RB makes tons more than what he made in the late '90's.

Potential High Draft Choice AND a Top Reserve "Price"
The Rams got Marshall for a 2nd round pick and a 5th round pick. In hindsight that was highway robbery. Just like when Dallas fleeced Minnesota. The NFL is a league where teams attempt to not get burned like another team did years prior thus the asking price will be higher the second time around. The Chiefs don't want to be sitting there looking like the Colts did after they traded Faulk in April 1999 only to watch he and Kurt Warner hoist the Lombardi Trophy that same season. The Chiefs will ask for the kitchen sink if they could but that doesn't mean that is the final request for consideration. They may very well end up having to settle for a conditional 2nd that can become a 1st if LJ meets certain incentives and a second day pick.

As I stated, I wouldn't commit to the trade as presented (Cleveland's pick plus MBIII) but if they came down like I suspect they may have to, I would consider it.

That's all I wanted.

Is LJ better than Faulk? Uh, that would be no.

Is LJ a model citizen and teammate who has never caused his team any grief? Another no.

Is he in LaDanian Tomlinson's league that he can demand that kind of money? No appears to be a theme here.

Someone mentioned he is a top 3 RB. I assume the other top 3 is Shawn Alexander. I wouldn't pay this price for him either.

LaDanian Tomlinson? In a heartbeat. You see, I think there is a huge dropoff at RB after him.

Any team who even considers giving up a #1 for LJ is nuts. Much less a serviceable player on top of that.

 

[slick325]

Did any of them cost the equivalent of MB3 and the Browns #1 to acquire?

The Pats got the Jets 1st and 3rd round picks in the draft for Curtis Martin and Martin got a six year $36mil deal.

Bettis was traded along with a 3rd round in exchange for a 2nd round pick in '96 and a 4th round pick in '97.

They weren't the equivalent per se although since we have no clue where Cleveland picks or what MBIII would fetch on the trade market, it may be the equivalent of the Martin trade.

 

[Hostile]

The Pats got the Jets 1st and 3rd round picks in the draft for Curtis Martin and Martin got a six year $36mil deal.

Bettis was traded along with a 3rd round in exchange for a 2nd round pick in '96 and a 4th round pick in '97.

They weren't the equivalent per se although since we have no clue where Cleveland picks or what MBIII would fetch on the trade market, it may be the equivalent of the Martin trade.

And I believe Monseur Bill "Tuna" Parcells paid too much and Martin was not worth that cost.

Bettis was, but it isn't even close to this asking price.

So we should pay too much because the Jets did? No thanks.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

One, like Zero said, I don't think anyone wants to give up that Cleveland #1 pick next year. So I don't know why that's even being discussed.

Two, ABQ's point is fine. Look at the Colts -- they had to let James go, so they just spent a 20s draft pick on a new RB and boom, he's just as good for a fraction of the cost. So sometimes it does work out to go with the young, cheap guy instead of the expensive vet.

But as to why a team would go with LJ instead of the two-back system that gets similar stats, I guess the answer goes beyond numbers. I think that when a defense knows they're going against a real stud of a player who can mow them down all day, I think it has a psychological effect on a defense.

Now, the player has to be a truly great player to have that effect on a defense, but IMO Johnson is that rare kind of back. Maybe others don't agree, and that's perfectly fine. But I think seeing Larry Johnson in the Cowboys backfield in the middle of a grind-it-out drive in the fourth quarter has a lot bigger effect on the Dawkins and Urlachers of the world than when they see Marion Barber or Julius Jones back there.

Not to mention the similar confidence that an O-line instantly gains knowing that they're blocking for a back like that.

Odds are huge that this will never happen, but it's pretty good late-June conversation.