Russia invades Ukraine *** READ RULES IN POST 6 BEFORE POSTING ***

[Roadtrip635]

 

[Sarek]

Are you Russian? We've seen this dance before. Peace... Putin uses peace and capitulation just to prepare for his next move. If Ukraine wants to fight for their freedom we should not press them to give up like you suggest. You even admitted that he might want all later. There's no might about it. Look at history. Putin will only accept a temporary peace right now if 1) Ukraine surrenders completely and 2) We lift the sanctions. So your hoping the sanctions will rot Russia over time will only guarantee that Russia is hostile and belligerent and likely to remain at are. At the end of WWI the Allies hit Germany will all of the bills and crippled their economy and that led to WWII.

Is the loss of life tragic and unnecessary? Yes it is. Who caused it? Who is at fault? Oh wait, it's Putin and Russia. Those are the guys you suggest that Ukraine surrender half their territory to....just so Russia can consolidate, prepare, and invade the rest later. That's a good plan for Russia. It's a terrible plan for the Ukraine.

Your too far outside the box.

We always knew Ukraine was susceptible to Russian Invasion even before 2014. There's a reason why Ukraine never got into NATO. This debate has been around since the Soviet Union broke up. We the West tried our best to figure it out, but it takes a lot of courage to have included the Ukraine into the EU NATO or anything without a massive stir up by Russia. The stir up was avoided plain and simple. Putin worked it down the line through the years and he's getting it back now. We lost a long time ago, and now people are dying because people only see what's happening today.

I know your intensions are good, and i don't want you to misunderstand me, but this is beyond where most people think it is.

 

[Roadtrip635]

This is at least the 2nd, maybe 3rd General that has been killed during their "special military operations"

 

[Tabascocat]

I don’t think Russia can take Kyiv with their current strategy. They are going to have to take it up a level or two with bigger weapons. It remains to be seen if they go all out because the troops are struggling and won’t last much longer due to logistics.

 

[nobody]

Your too far outside the box.

We always knew Ukraine was susceptible to Russian Invasion even before 2014. There's a reason why Ukraine never got into NATO. This debate has been around since the Soviet Union broke up. We the West tried our best to figure it out, but it takes a lot of courage to have included the Ukraine into the EU NATO or anything without a massive stir up by Russia. The stir up was avoided plain and simple. Putin worked it down the line through the years and he's getting it back now. We lost a long time ago, and now people are dying because people only see what's happening today.

I know your intensions are good, and i don't want you to misunderstand me, but this is beyond where most people think it is.

It's simple, my friend. If Ukraine wants to fight for their freedom, then they get to fight for their freedom. If they want to surrender, then they will surrender.

 

[Sarek]

It's simple, my friend. If Ukraine wants to fight for their freedom, then they get to fight for their freedom. If they want to surrender, then they will surrender.

Of course I'm only telling you it's a cost that didn't have to be paid.

Peace now, Lives saved now, Sanction's damage now and later. Ukraine whole later with less blood shed. People like to see a fight, it stirs us up inside. We must remember this is real life.

 

[nobody]

Of course I'm only telling you it's a cost that didn't have to be paid.

Peace now, Lives saved now, Sanction's damage now and later. Ukraine whole later with less blood shed. People like to see a fight, it stirs us up inside. We must remember this is real life.

You're not getting it. Russia will not agree to peace if we don't lift the sanctions. I don't like seeing fighting. I hate it. But I'm not going to tell an entire country to surrender either. That's their choice to fight or not. It's not mine. And I don't condone trying to pressure them to surrender to an insane dictator who'll just invade them again later for the rest of the country. Your strategy, while well-intentioned is doomed to long-term failure for the Ukrainian people if they want freedom.

Here are the likely scenarios:

1) Russia and Ukraine don't negotiate and Russia wins: We don't lift the sanctions and cripple them economically until the point there is a revolution. Putin might pull the nuclear trigger before he's ousted.
2) Russia and Ukraine don't negotiate and Russia loses: We don't lift the sanctions, Russia is already weakened, and there might be a revolution. Putin might pull the nuclear trigger before he's ousted.
3) Russia and Ukraine negotiate and Russia keeps the territory it took and we don't lift the sanctions: Russia keeps it's territory, ramps up it's war material production, is belligerent and resumes invading after a short time. (leading us back to this same scenario only with Russia in a better war position.)
4) Russia and Ukraine negotiate and Russia keeps the territory it took and we lift the sanctions: Russia licks its wounds, prepares and invades again later. (leading us back to this same scenario only with Russia in a far better war position)
5) NATO enters into the defense of the Ukraine: Likely World War III and the exchange of several nukes if not the end of civilization.
6) Keep supporting Ukraine with ammo and supplies and let things play out without direct interference. From a historical standpoint, this is the only real shot Ukraine has at freedom.

In any case, because Putin is a madman, anything can happen and he could push that nuclear button at any time if he thinks he won't win. That could include him wanting to take over the planet. See Hitler.

So....in other words: Your stance, while honorable in wanting to save lives, is wrong and doomed to failure as that stance in the past has always proved wrong in the long run. History proves it.

 

[Sarek]

You're not getting it. Russia will not agree to peace if we don't lift the sanctions. I don't like seeing fighting. I hate it. But I'm not going to tell an entire country to surrender either. That's their choice to fight or not. It's not mine. And I don't condone trying to pressure them to surrender to an insane dictator who'll just invade them again later for the rest of the country. Your strategy, while well-intentioned is doomed to long-term failure for the Ukrainian people if they want freedom.

Here are the likely scenarios:

1) Russia and Ukraine don't negotiate and Russia wins: We don't lift the sanctions and cripple them economically until the point there is a revolution. Putin might pull the nuclear trigger before he's ousted.
2) Russia and Ukraine don't negotiate and Russia loses: We don't lift the sanctions, Russia is already weakened, and there might be a revolution. Putin might pull the nuclear trigger before he's ousted.
3) Russia and Ukraine negotiate and Russia keeps the territory it took and we don't lift the sanctions: Russia keeps it's territory, ramps up it's war material production, is belligerent and resumes invading after a short time. (leading us back to this same scenario only with Russia in a better war position.)
4) Russia and Ukraine negotiate and Russia keeps the territory it took and we lift the sanctions: Russia licks its wounds, prepares and invades again later. (leading us back to this same scenario only with Russia in a far better war position)
5) NATO enters into the defense of the Ukraine: Likely World War III and the exchange of several nukes if not the end of civilization.
6) Keep supporting Ukraine with ammo and supplies and let things play out without direct interference. From a historical standpoint, this is the only real shot Ukraine has at freedom.

In any case, because Putin is a madman, anything can happen and he could push that nuclear button at any time if he thinks he won't win. That could include him wanting to take over the planet. See Hitler.

So....in other words: Your stance, while honorable in wanting to save lives, is wrong and doomed to failure as that stance in the past has always proved wrong in the long run. History proves it.

Ok let the war continue. That blood isn't on my hands. Sleep well.

 

[Cowpolk]

You're not getting it. Russia will not agree to peace if we don't lift the sanctions. I don't like seeing fighting. I hate it. But I'm not going to tell an entire country to surrender either. That's their choice to fight or not. It's not mine. And I don't condone trying to pressure them to surrender to an insane dictator who'll just invade them again later for the rest of the country. Your strategy, while well-intentioned is doomed to long-term failure for the Ukrainian people if they want freedom.

Here are the likely scenarios:

1) Russia and Ukraine don't negotiate and Russia wins: We don't lift the sanctions and cripple them economically until the point there is a revolution. Putin might pull the nuclear trigger before he's ousted.
2) Russia and Ukraine don't negotiate and Russia loses: We don't lift the sanctions, Russia is already weakened, and there might be a revolution. Putin might pull the nuclear trigger before he's ousted.
3) Russia and Ukraine negotiate and Russia keeps the territory it took and we don't lift the sanctions: Russia keeps it's territory, ramps up it's war material production, is belligerent and resumes invading after a short time. (leading us back to this same scenario only with Russia in a better war position.)
4) Russia and Ukraine negotiate and Russia keeps the territory it took and we lift the sanctions: Russia licks its wounds, prepares and invades again later. (leading us back to this same scenario only with Russia in a far better war position)
5) NATO enters into the defense of the Ukraine: Likely World War III and the exchange of several nukes if not the end of civilization.
6) Keep supporting Ukraine with ammo and supplies and let things play out without direct interference. From a historical standpoint, this is the only real shot Ukraine has at freedom.

In any case, because Putin is a madman, anything can happen and he could push that nuclear button at any time if he thinks he won't win. That could include him wanting to take over the planet. See Hitler.

So....in other words: Your stance, while honorable in wanting to save lives, is wrong and doomed to failure as that stance in the past has always proved wrong in the long run. History proves it.

History repeats its self and is right now. We should have taken Russia out when we could have in WW11

 

[nobody]

Ok let the war continue. That blood isn't on my hands. Sleep well.

It's not on my hands either. I didn't start it. I don't like it. But sometimes you have to fight to stop evil. What you suggest is literally just like what was suggested when **** Germany invaded Poland. "Hey! Maybe if we let them keep it they'll stop there! "

Really the best case scenario is for the Russian people to stand up and remove Putin and his thugs from power. It has to be the Russian people though.

 

[Dodger12]

I don't think Putin ever thought he could take all of Ukraine. I know people probably think that because that sells. Putin wants parts now and maybe all later. The goal here is to make peace,

You don't see the contradiction in your statement? There wasn't peace when the Ukrainians gave up their nukes, there wasn't peace after the Russians annexed Crimea and there won't be peace should he be appeased today. The Ukrainians and most of the world know this.

 

[Cowpolk]

Of course I'm only telling you it's a cost that didn't have to be paid.

Peace now, Lives saved now, Sanction's damage now and later. Ukraine whole later with less blood shed. People like to see a fight, it stirs us up inside. We must remember this is real life.

What part of Russia invaded them do you not understand?

 

[Roadtrip635]

 

[MichaelWinicki]

 

[MichaelWinicki]

 

[MichaelWinicki]

 

[MichaelWinicki]

 

[MichaelWinicki]

 

[MichaelWinicki]

 

[MichaelWinicki]